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S_D - Posted - 02/15/2026: 15:02:34
I get the historical reason; clawhammer predates bluegrass, and open-backs came first. But practically speaking, wouldn’t a resonator help with projection and volume, especially in jams? Are there downsides?
Why does modern clawhammer still lean so heavily open-back? Is it just tone preference, or is there something about the technique that really pairs better with open-backs?
I’ve never seen a banjo that has both a claw hammer scoop, and also a closed-back resonator
I know this gets asked a lot, but I’m just curious what the reasoning is.
banjered - Posted - 02/15/2026: 15:15:23
With B.G, gotta sound like Earl as much as possible. With C.H. there is a much wider range of tone desirables ranging from "almost Earl" to mud thumpers. banjered
Culloden - Posted - 02/15/2026: 15:39:47
Difference in sound. In bluegrass, the banjo is more of a lead instrument that does a lot of solo breaks. Bluegrass pickers want their banjos to project loudly. In Old-Time music, the banjo is more of an ensemble instrument. Its function is more rhythmic, so the player doesn't want the banjo to overpower the other players.
Some famous clawhammer players, notably Grandpa Jones and Stringbean played clawhammer on resonator banjos. Modern-day Larry Sigmon plays clawhammer on a resonator banjo. They play (or played) a lot of venues where they are the star attraction, not necessarily part of a band. Resonators make sense in those circumstances. In an ensemble situation, the banjo doesn't need to ring out so loudly. That's why the open back banjo makes sense.
That's all speculation, don't take it for Gospel. I hope it made sense.
Sopris - Posted - 02/15/2026: 16:04:54
quote:
Originally posted by xnos2xnos2
I get the historical reason; clawhammer predates bluegrass, and open-backs came first. But practically speaking, wouldn’t a resonator help with projection and volume, especially in jams? Are there downsides?
Why does modern clawhammer still lean so heavily open-back? Is it just tone preference, or is there something about the technique that really pairs better with open-backs?
I’ve never seen a banjo that has both a claw hammer scoop, and also a closed-back resonator
I know this gets asked a lot, but I’m just curious what the reasoning is.
I have a Nechville Moonshine with scoop and resonator. I mostly play it without the reso and it is plenty loud for small 5-8 person jams. We play bluegrass and fiddletunes. Guitar flatpickers still have less volume than an openback banjo.
Bill Rogers - Posted - 02/15/2026: 16:16:56
Mark sums it up well. …. The late Cathy Barton played an aluminum-shell(!) resonator Ode her entire career. Wade Ward played a resonator Gibson. I suspect if bluegrass players could get the volume and focus they need from an openback, they’d choose one if only for the lighter weight. Much of the New Lost City Ramblers recording of old-time styles was done on Mike Seeger’s RB-3. I’m sure there are others..... Scoops, of course are a modern adaptation to facilitate playing over the neck, You won't find them on banjos made before 1970 unless they've beed added.
Edited by - Bill Rogers on 02/15/2026 16:20:33
cjwit - Posted - 02/15/2026: 17:32:39
It’s worth noting that the “Pie plate” resonators and other styles were common pretty early on. There’s more than one kind of resonator for the very reasons you mention. I’d love to hear from someone about when the resonators that we think of as pre-war Gibsons and friends start popping up and dominating that space.
For modern players, there are other differences in contemporary resonator/BG banjos and open backs, too: string spacing, neck width, action, and so on. No reason that you couldn’t have a clawhammer friendly resonator, but they are generally built and set up differently.
That said, I enjoy the sound of things like Coo Coo on my resonator. And everything from Ola Belle Reed.
Joel Hooks - Posted - 02/15/2026: 18:23:30
Perhaps the OP could define “traditional”?
I keep getting told about how banjos need to be altered for “modern playability”, so which is it?
Bill Rogers - Posted - 02/15/2026: 19:36:43
That reminds me that Tom Ashley played a ‘50s archtop Mastertone; Doc Watson, typically a resonator Vega. Reed Martin, too. None of these pickers played the currently fashionable “festival-style” clawhammer that is heavily influenced by Round Peak playing.
rkdjones - Posted - 02/16/2026: 00:17:43
I put a DIY trapdoor-like resonator on my open back to play in a group with other musicians. I think the trapdoor resonator dates from the 1920's and came on Gibson TB-1 tenor banjos. Mine is just a 11" piece of circular plywood that is held off the rim with spacers at the top of the rim so I can hear myself better. It isn't much to look at but I think it works well enough and doesn't add much weight. It probably makes the banjo project forward more but I don't have a metal tone ring so my banjo is kind of quiet. I don't see why a resonator would be a problem, and kind of surprised I don't see it more often.
I'm seeing more guitars and ukuleles with holes in the side facing up to direct some sound toward the player. I drilled a hole in my ukulele to do the same.
EEB - Posted - 02/16/2026: 03:05:53
Why? You’d probably need to dive down the rabbit hole of folk revivalism to get a clearer understanding of the nature of constructing tradition.
Covered-back banjo design can be traced right back to the earliest banjos. Essentially a gourd is a ‘covered back banjo’.
A more helpful cultural concept and mechanism is 'convention'.
Edited by - EEB on 02/16/2026 03:07:38
Mickhammer - Posted - 02/16/2026: 04:52:18
The weight of those monsters alone is enough to keep me playing open backs.
KCJones - Posted - 02/16/2026: 05:15:42
The 'default' banjo is an openback, for all types of playing.
The resonator is just an add-on to increase volume and sound projection for playing in a group, particularly where lead breaks are a central part of the song (e.g. bluegrass). There's really no need for a resonator unless you actually need one for a specific use case. That use doesn't apply to most types of playing.
Edited by - KCJones on 02/16/2026 05:16:59
Don Borchelt - Posted - 02/16/2026: 14:23:11
quote:
Originally posted by Bill Rogers
Mark sums it up well. …. The late Cathy Barton played an aluminum-shell(!) resonator Ode her entire career. Wade Ward played a resonator Gibson. I suspect if bluegrass players could get the volume and focus they need from an openback, they’d choose one if only for the lighter weight. Much of the New Lost City Ramblers recording of old-time styles was done on Mike Seeger’s RB-3. I’m sure there are others..... Scoops, of course are a modern adaptation to facilitate playing over the neck, You won't find them on banjos made before 1970 unless they've beed added.
What Bill said. A lot of the old time players we all admire, once they started making some money at it, went out and bought themselves a Mastertone or some other resonator banjo. I recently watched an interview of Mike Seeger on YouTube, and he expressed his dismay when Boggs, who had quit playing banjo for 30 years, went out and bought the bow-tie Gibson that Bill mentioned above. That was in 1963, and Dock took it to the folk revival gigs he got before he passed in 1968. I hate to tell you, but that was the banjo of choice for a whole lot of the old timers. Not Tommy and Fred, though! I made up the montage below for the last time we had this discussion ten, maybe twenty years ago. I could maybe double it now.
cjwit - Posted - 02/16/2026: 16:46:11
Rather than something about tradition, there’s a valid question here about the roles of marketing, changing tastes, and the dominance of fads within old time music. I’ve heard comments about brass hardware as of late, for example (which I like) and 12” rims. Not all of old time is immutable!
Honest question: is this something that comes up often? I’ve seen a few things, but it’s always of interest as a counter to claims of stagnation or obsession with the past (which is also something of a straw man).
writerrad - Posted - 02/16/2026: 17:45:12
It is simply a fiction, product of the post-1960 old time music revival there is a connection between playing an open back banjo and playing down picking/ clawham. drown stroking, frailing or whatever you want to call it. It is true that before the current resonator banjos began to be available with Paramount's unveiling that design and it being copied by Gibson and others and even Bacon, but there is absolutely no correspondence between playing clawhammer and playing an open back, once resonator banjos became available. This is a misconception that is popular among people who are not traditional banjo players, but was not at all the idea that people like Wade Warde, Gus Cannon, Odell Thompson, Rufus Kasey. Uncle Dave Macon, one of the most famous down picking musicians of old time music played a variety of different resonator banjos once they were available, until some point in the 1940s when his arthritis made it difficult for him to bear the weight of a Gibson RB. Macon had Gibson make a special version of the GB rb with a dowel stick and no resonator because the resonators had gotten too heavy for them.
The idea is a fiction
writerrad - Posted - 02/16/2026: 17:47:02
Thank you Don. This proves the point better than typing, The idea of Resonators not being used by down picking players is utterly refuted by these pictures, and about a dozen more that can be produced.
writerrad - Posted - 02/16/2026: 18:17:22
Chris this an idea that arose among old time music revivalists, and it seems to have arisen sometime in the 1970s, once fewer of the traditional based or at least pre Bluegrass southern entertainer type down pickers and up pickers were above the ground, In 1960 or 1965, even most revivalists would have not believed this because there were enough tradition based old time musicians playing resonators around like Gus Cannon, Odell Thompson, Rufus Kasey, to name Black ones.
Banjos with external resonators of the type first introduced by Paramount in the early 20th century and popularized by Gibson were not made until the 20th century, although there were a number of attempts at resonator like devises in banjos at least from the 1860s,, It is also important to realize that especially before the external resonator of the type we are familiar with became popular, since the 1850 or 60s, a variety of internal resonating devices, internals were introduce on banjos,
It is also necessary to state that discussing banjo use of the majority of old time banjoists as something governed by "tradition" also misuses the term tradition. Pretty much "traditional" choice of banjos ended with the demise of the early gourd banjos that were played by Black spiritual cults that were the original form of the banjo in the Caribbean and North America. The few such banjos we know of from surviving instruments in the Caribbean and North America or illustrations are remarkably similar in their design including features that are a result of the spiritual tradition they came out of that most people making banjos outside those traditions would find obstacles to making a good sounding banjo.,
Banjo design has not been governed by "tradition" but by the attraction of banjo players both folk and show business, and art to the latest designs that progressively advanced the banjo for banjo entertainers and banjoists who were part of dance operations, in old time music, ragtime, jazz and bluegrass. Rather than tradition, banjo design drew in the thinking of professional instrument makers and designers aimed at commercial markets, drawing in techniques and ideas that came from the commercial and professional construction of drums, guitars, violins and other instruments. There is little to suggest that from the 1850s on even among African American players the designs of banjos made by the top commercial banjo makers were followed and cherished by folk banjo players.
Of course the revolutionary event took place in the late 1830s when Sweeney and others popularized the hoop headed or frame headed banjo replacing the early gourd banjo and opened banjo design and use what designers of instruments could create, often borrowing heavily from the approaches created by making drums, guitars, violins, and every instruments,
Of course, the current type of external resonator banjo that arose in the early 20th century initially popularized by Paramount and then taken over by Gibson was widely adopted by folk, blues, and country players,even though the initial driving impulse for the basic banjo design was to create tenor and plectrum banjos that could cut through brass.
About 10 years ago I did a presentation on the banjos of the Black Banjoists on the Digital Library of Appalachia. What was interesting was that every single one of the black banjoists on the DLA originally played some sort of resonator banjo, either a modest Gibson, a Japanese Invasion model. or in one case a harmony. The only ones pictured playing open backed banjos were banjoists who ran into old time music revivalists from the North or Universities who decided that they should play open back banjos. Odell Thompson is often picture playing a wonderful 1890s Special Electric often, but that banjo still belongs to Cece Conway and belonged to Cece and Tommy Thompson when Odell was living. When Odell was given a choice, he obtained a Deering Resonator Banjo, Tommy Thompson has made a wonderful film of Dink Roberts playing a super Vega or Fairbanks White lady, but that banjo was Tommy's not Dink. Dink's banjo was a dinky old "Chicago" pie pan model with a resonator,
It is also true that many of the open back banjos that old time revivalists obtained since the 1960s, that are original Fairbanks, Bacon, or Vega banjos were built originally with resonators that have been discarded or disued because of the current fad,.
I say this sadly since I own 7 banjos and only two of them both Chinese imports have resonators and have 5 open back banjos, though at least one of the open backs my 1923 Tubaphone from its serial number probably originally had a resonator.
It is also true that before the Paramount created and Bison copied type of resonator we are familiar with today, in the late 1890s, and for two decades of the 20th century, internal resonators that did not close the back were widely used by banjoists, like the Van Eps Recording Banjo, a banjo that Gus Cannon played in the 1930s
I am uploading two pictures of Gus Cannon with resonator banjos, A picture from the late 1930s or perhaps the 40s with a Van Eps Recording banjo with an internal resonator, and a picture of Gus not with the Van Eps, but with his Gretsch "Bacon" Broadkaster in the Memphis Stax studio recording his Walk Right In Album.
Of course, Chris should know of similar developments in North Africa. Of course, Chris should be familiar with this kind of motion. He has documented and not just documented, but has played as a musician with. North African, I think in his case Moroccan musicians who play in musical/spiritual traditions brought by Africans who were enslaved to North Africa who have replaced the traditional wooden instruments in many cases with inexpensive resonator banios.
Cheers.
Edited by - writerrad on 02/16/2026 18:31:22
Bill Rogers - Posted - 02/16/2026: 18:31:01
Speculation, but it could be that Pete Seeger influenced Folk Revival players not only to adopt long-neck banjos, but also to choose openbacks. It was a lot easier to find old Vega Tubaphones and Whyte Laydies than flathead Mastertones.
writerrad - Posted - 02/16/2026: 18:37:33
My own memory and also research in the matter is that the idea that down picking was played only on banjos without external resonators was not known in the 1930s, 1940s, or 1950s among what could be called the first generation of folk revivalists. This idea seems to have come to its head and expression only in the 1970s and 1980s. There were too many down picking banjoists who played RBs from Clarence Ashley to Doc Watson to almost every Black banjo player found since then.
Bill Rogers - Posted - 02/16/2026: 18:38:40
The resonator banjos of the Jazz Age, I would argue, were adopted to make the instruments (typically tenor and plectrum banjos) more audible in a band. The makers put them on 5-strings too slince the shells were the same.
writerrad - Posted - 02/16/2026: 18:49:06
People have been trying to introduce what we can call resonators into banjos since the 1850s, In the 19th century and early 20th century most of the resonator devices built into banjos were internal resonators that were inside the banjo pot, although from the 1850s or 60s, external resonators were also tried.
Most current resonator banjos follow the designs of external resonators that Paramount introduced in the early 1900s designed for plectrum played banjos of the tenor, guitar, plectrum, and mandolin banjo type, The banjos that Bluegrass players play since Earl Got one for a birthday in the late 1930s are modeled after the Gibson 5-string model of various production designs whose chief marketing purpose was tenor and plectrum banjos. If you got the Gibson catalogs starting in the mid 1920s, you would have the tenor banjo ont he first page, followed by plectrum, five-string, mandolin, and melody banjo models.
writerrad - Posted - 02/16/2026: 18:49:57
quote:exactly.
Originally posted by Bill Rogers
The resonator banjos of the Jazz Age, I would argue, were adopted to make the instruments (typically tenor and plectrum banjos) more audible in a band. The makers put them on 5-strings too slince the shells were the same.
writerrad - Posted - 02/16/2026: 18:57:01
Pete's first banjo was a tenor banjo he bought in a pawn shop in my home town Hartford CT when he was a student at the prep school up there called Avon Old Farms, but his father was a famous folklorist. One of his Dad's friends was the Painter Thomas Hart Benton who was a folk music and traditional banjoi enthusiast. Mike Seeger told me and others that when he was growing up in the 20s, Benton was bringing old time banjo records over the Seeger apartment in NYC in the 20s. Mke saidd he heard Doc Boggs recordings Brenton played for them when he was a child! Pete has explained that their father took them to old time music festivals in the South and he was really inspired by seeing players like Bascom Lamar Lunsford when he was but a lad.
Edited by - writerrad on 02/16/2026 18:58:32
writerrad - Posted - 02/16/2026: 19:00:01
Gibson created, not Bison created though I love me some Bison steaks!
writerrad - Posted - 02/16/2026: 19:03:10
quote:
Originally posted by Don Borchelt
quote:
Originally posted by Bill Rogers
Mark sums it up well. …. The late Cathy Barton played an aluminum-shell(!) resonator Ode her entire career. Wade Ward played a resonator Gibson. I suspect if bluegrass players could get the volume and focus they need from an openback, they’d choose one if only for the lighter weight. Much of the New Lost City Ramblers recording of old-time styles was done on Mike Seeger’s RB-3. I’m sure there are others..... Scoops, of course are a modern adaptation to facilitate playing over the neck, You won't find them on banjos made before 1970 unless they've beed added.
What Bill said. A lot of the old time players we all admire, once they started making some money at it, went out and bought themselves a Mastertone or some other resonator banjo. I recently watched an interview of Mike Seeger on YouTube, and he expressed his dismay when Boggs, who had quit playing banjo for 30 years, went out and bought the bow-tie Gibson that Bill mentioned above. That was in 1963, and Dock took it to the folk revival gigs he got before he passed in 1968. I hate to tell you, but that was the banjo of choice for a whole lot of the old timers. Not Tommy and Fred, though! I made up the montage below for the last time we had this discussion ten, maybe twenty years ago. I could maybe double it now.
writerrad - Posted - 02/16/2026: 19:04:53
On the other hand, an analysis of Creed's approach to banjomaking was to incorporate many design features that gave the Gibson RB its omph into an open back banjo especially in the internal structure of the banjo.
writerrad - Posted - 02/16/2026: 19:13:47
quote:
Originally posted by KCJones
The 'default' banjo is an openback, for all types of playing.
That is simply untrue if you restrict yourself only to five-string banjos. Reality is that the external resonator of the type first introduced by Paramount and perfected by Gibson, was pretty universally adopted by banjo makers once they were introduced mainly for varieties of banjos played with flat picks. There is no area of banjo where the top players who could afform them did not avail themselves of resonators. Before my hero Joel rises to defend the legacy of such as Van Eps, he will have to admit Van Eps himself dedicated himself to developing his own design for a resonator, for banjos with an internal resonator,
Probably beween 1930 and 1950, it was probably hard to find a five string banjo that was not produced with a resonator. Many of the Vega and Fairbanks produced after 1920s were produced with a resonator.
writerrad - Posted - 02/16/2026: 19:26:05
". I’d love to hear from someone about when the resonators that we think of as pre-war Gibsons and friends start popping up and dominating that space."
This is a kind of regressive way of looking ait. The external resonators started being introduced around 1918 or so primarily for tenor and plectrum banjos, and were included in most five-string banjos including premium Vegas, Fairbanks and Bacons (although Bacon did have a kind of internal resonator on his pre Groton models). All the prewar Gibson were produced as part of a line of instruments that started with a Tenor banjo, included a mandolin banjo, and a plectrum banjo with a five string banjo being last in the line I think not until the early 20s. Gibson was the premium Mandolin company in America and a premium guitar maker did not make banjos until 1918.
We look back at Gibsons because postwar bluegrass players focus on them, but they were not the inventors, or the cheif innovators of the external resonator of the type Gibson adopted on banjos. Their significance as a banjo company has grown since Earl's adoption of the Gibson mastertone mde them more popular and widespread. They did not invent the external resonator of the type Gibson banjos have used since the 1920s, and were not the most widespread producers of resonator banjos. All the banjo makers switched to making RBs. The premium banjo companies in the time when Gibson first created its glorious RBs Bacon, Paramount, Vega, are no longer in existence. Though they are identified with open back models. most of their banjost produced after 1920 came with external resonators.
Gibson was not the major company introducing the idea of a resonator banjo. Gibson is at the center of our ideas because of the single minded concentration on Gibson resonator banjos because Earl Scruggs played one as did some of the other early bluegrass players, but Gibson had much less influence on banjo making until the fascination with Scruggs came after WWii, although they did try some serious marketing with old time players, especially with Charlie Poole who received several Mastertone as product placement, However, they were not seen as a trend setting banjo company.
The external resonator is simply a good inexpensive and not technologically difficult solution to projecting the sound of a banjo without doing some of the intricate work that internal resonators and other ideas of the period required. You (Chris) even ended up playing an RB with the Gwana musicians in Morocco!
Edited by - writerrad on 02/16/2026 19:32:15
writerrad - Posted - 02/16/2026: 19:34:59
I want to say I have nothing against Gibson banjos and love them. Anyone who wishes to help me with this issue by presenting me with a Gibson RB of any vintage will get a gold star from me.
KCJones - Posted - 02/17/2026: 03:11:19
As hesitant as I am to engage, I will just say this.
The first banjos did not have a resonator. The resonator was an added feature that came later in the development of the instrument. It's an extra optional feature, not a fundamental component of the instrument.
A theme of academics is that the won't, or seemingly can't, understand that tradition is descriptive rather than prescriptive. It is defined by how people actually behave, not by how the 'educated authorities' think they should. 1960 was 66 years ago, and open back banjos have been the traditional type of banjo for clawhammer style since then. That's a long time, certainly long enough to build a strong tradition. You will not find many resonator banjos at old time festivals or on front porches. "Traditional" does not mean "in the past".
Edited by - KCJones on 02/17/2026 03:25:21
cjwit - Posted - 02/17/2026: 04:55:33
writerrad Tony, great to "see" you! I quit Facebook a while back and have missed your posts, one of the only real losses there. Thanks for the details. I've seen many of these things kicking around, but never tried to put an order to them. (For anyone who is interested, a quick web search led me to a chronology of Gibson banjos [1], which made it easier to look for some years. The 1918 [2] is an open back, the 1922 [3] has the flat resonator backing, the 1925 [4] has the full resonator. I'm sure there's much more nuance to these, but I was just looking for some photos to align with Tony's description. This 1924 Paramount catalog [5] has a host of instruments with the resonators that I was associating with Gibson Mastertone banjos and their ilk when I asked the question.)
KCJones Your point is valid: when does something become such an expectation that it's widely seen as a tradition or, in the case of the original question here, a given? 66 years ago is a long time! I'd personally love to hear more about the pressures that made this shift that Tony and Don are describing happen. Was it as straightforward as "the folk scene highlighted open backs, and many folks came to the banjo through that, so the association strengthened at the same time as bluegrassers were focused on Earl's Grenada"? Things like advertising, marketing in growing camp/festival scenes, and perhaps social distance between these groups might be relevant (or not?). To say that "tradition is descriptive rather than prescriptive" could apply to both how people behave now and how it came to be that way, right? Traditions have their own histories, and those are pretty interesting. You're right to say that "traditional" doesn't mean "in the past," but it usually refers to folks thinking about the past. Time scales can differ, though, so it's easy to talk past each other. Sorry if that's what is happening here.
Any insights into the other half of the original question? Unlike resonators, scoops do seem to be more recent. What's the history of those? When do they start popping up? Did folks start pulling frets to get more space when playing loudly with lower action? Was there a move to lower bridge height? I could see some practicalities and I frankly really like playing with a scoop. But I don't think I've seen many (any?) on older instruments. Fingerstyle turn-of-the-century playing doesn't really need one and neither would jazz tenor-style.
[1]: siminoff.net/gibson
[2]: gryphonstrings.com/products/19...anjo-used
[3]: reverb.com/item/54118029-gibso...irca-1922
[4]: jakewildwood.blogspot.com/2025...ator.html
[5]: acousticmusic.org/wp-content/u...-1924.pdf
Joel Hooks - Posted - 02/17/2026: 06:51:45
cjwit , the “modern” scoop, ie what is used for playing festival “Galax” style, was first introduced around 1965 by Bob Flesher, requested by someone to easier imitate Kyle Creed (though Creed did not use a scoop).
There is no doubt in my mind that Flesher was inspired by the aesthetic design found on early rim banjos, likely a carryover from tackheads.
Bob would have likely had some knowledge of those in the 60s, but how much I do not know.
writerrad - Posted - 02/17/2026: 07:31:26
The important point is that today the Gibson line of resonator banjos seems significant. This is solely because of the influence of Earl Scruggs and a core of other Southern banjoists who favored Gibson banjos in the mid 1940s. Then we have the magnificantion of the importance of Earl Scruggs and bluegrass and the repopularization of the five string banjo across the 50s and 60s in Bluegrass. None of this was going on in the 1920s
However in the 1920s or 1918, these were not seen as significant banjos that were important to the history of banjos, or important to the development of banjos which centered on other brands of banjos that were the premium tenor and plectrum banjos of that era.
Don Borchelt - Posted - 02/17/2026: 08:50:14
quote:
Originally posted by Bill Rogers
…. The late Cathy Barton played an aluminum-shell(!) resonator Ode her entire career...
I have one of those. I admired one that belonged to my good friend and picking partner, the late Ed Britt, and he found one for me. I used it all the years we went busking in Harvard Square. Mine is a Model 42; the resonator flange and rib are all one piece. I love the sound, very crisp and clean.
Edited by - Don Borchelt on 02/17/2026 08:51:55
Mickhammer - Posted - 02/17/2026: 09:26:45
When the comments have footnotes, you know you're in too deep
cjwit - Posted - 02/18/2026: 12:04:25
quote:
Originally posted by Joel Hooks
cjwit , the “modern” scoop, ie what is used for playing festival “Galax” style, was first introduced around 1965 by Bob Flesher, requested by someone to easier imitate Kyle Creed (though Creed did not use a scoop).
I almost asked about Kyle Creed, specifically. Thanks, that makes sense. And when comments start getting footnotes, I feel like you're just getting started! (Though my "notes" were really just links, I like to get them out of the text so they're not in the way.)
Joel Hooks - Posted - 02/18/2026: 13:29:15
Here is an article from Feb 1914
writerrad - Posted - 02/18/2026: 19:24:34
.:KC here misunderstands the definition of tradition, which is generally meant to be a folk tradition or even a religeously developed tradition, not the kind of tradition that is "transmitted" by Facebook or earlier iterations such as dear old Banjo-l.
In fact research on this, such as when for a presentation at the Banjo Gathering about 12 years ago, I looked up what banjoes the African Americans Kip Lornell and others had recorded for the Digital Library of Appalachia actually played., I found that the almost universally played resonator banjos. The few that did not were mostly people who had played resonator banjos until they got in contact with white old time music enthusiasts who decided that they should play Vegas or Fairbanks or other revivalist banjos. and are often pictured holding open back banjos that were NOT THEIR BANJOS, but owned by white old time music enthusiasts who thought they were proper. On the other hand when Odell Thompson whose folkie picture is holding a sweet Fairbanks Special Electric that I believe Cece Conway still owns that was owned by Tommy Thompson and Cece when Tommy was living, was asked by Deering what kind of banjo he wanted, he got a Deering Resonator banjo.
When Doc Watson came upon old time revivalists and for a while about a decade after he was "discovered" by Mike Seeger and Ralph Rinzler, Watson played an RB.
There was no adoption by Southern white or Black continuators of the old time banjo tradition of playing open back back banjos. but a fashion and misunderstanding by mostly urban and college originated old time revivalists of the myth that old time banjo is chiefly played on open back banjos.
It is funny insofar many of the open back banjos of the Fairbanks and Vega vintage. especially many conversions like the 1923 Vega pot with a 5 string neck I should be pickingh instead of typing here were originally built as resonator banjos or came with a detachable resonator, that got lost or jettisoned over the years.
writerrad - Posted - 02/18/2026: 19:26:34
thanks Joel.
SatCotM - Posted - 02/18/2026: 21:56:17
quote:
Originally posted by xnos2xnos2
I’ve never seen a banjo that has both a claw hammer scoop, and also a closed-back resonator
Any banjo can have a scoop if you pull a few frets and cut a bit out of the neck! I play a resonator that I scooped, though you can play fine over the neck without one. Just preference.
I would toss one more speculative factor into the pot. It seems like approachability and palatability are among the points that attract folk banjo-ers to the style. It takes more technical skill to get to the point that Scruggs style starts sounding good, and it's doubtless more painful to witness when it isn't any good at all. A lot of that is just on account of the sheer brightness and volume of typical bluegrass setups on typical resonator banjos, with typical metal picks. People choosing to learn bluegrass aren't scared of that sound.
Contemporary old time banjo tends to be delivered with a much milder, more digestible tone. Something less likely to attract attention or cut through a mix, but equally unlikely to motivate your spouse to poison your morning coffee. Stands to reason that people choosing a more approachable & less divisive style would go with warmer & quieter instruments. Hence lighter (or no) tone ring and no resonator.
banjoboyd - Posted - 02/19/2026: 13:07:04
quote:
Originally posted by SatCotM
I would toss one more speculative factor into the pot. It seems like approachability and palatability are among the points that attract folk banjo-ers to the style. It takes more technical skill to get to the point that Scruggs style starts sounding good, and it's doubtless more painful to witness when it isn't any good at all. A lot of that is just on account of the sheer brightness and volume of typical bluegrass setups on typical resonator banjos, with typical metal picks. People choosing to learn bluegrass aren't scared of that sound.
Contemporary old time banjo tends to be delivered with a much milder, more digestible tone. Something less likely to attract attention or cut through a mix, but equally unlikely to motivate your spouse to poison your morning coffee. Stands to reason that people choosing a more approachable & less divisive style would go with warmer & quieter instruments. Hence lighter (or no) tone ring and no resonator.
This is (to me, at least) a fascinating development that seems to not be acknowledged or discussed very often. Many old-time banjo players and makers today are aiming for a sound that did not really exist in the past, or at least was not that common or desirable. There has occurred a timbral shift, alongside perhaps more obvious changes in technique and musical interpretation. It's a sound I would describe as "hollow-plunky," which is partly the result of playing over the scoop area at an angle (on a shorter scale banjo, this is around the 1/4 mark of the open strings, which excites them in such a way as to produce mostly fundamental and octave) and partly the result of design/setup (e.g., open-back, stuffed pot, shorter scale lengths, less aggressive tone rings including woodies, bridge positioned closer to middle of head) aimed at reducing the presence of odd-numbered and inharmonic partials -- what otherwise give the banjo it's brightness, nasalness, twang, and so on. And as you suggest, the goal is not "cut through" but rather to blend with guitar/fiddle or simply to sound nice (subjective, of course) by itself. The remarkable thing is that this shift is basically divergent from everything else in banjo land currently and historically, but not, I would argue, from broader trends in contemporary music.
Edited by - banjoboyd on 02/19/2026 13:08:23
csacwp - Posted - 02/19/2026: 15:12:37
quote:
Originally posted by banjoboyd
quote:
Originally posted by SatCotM
I would toss one more speculative factor into the pot. It seems like approachability and palatability are among the points that attract folk banjo-ers to the style. It takes more technical skill to get to the point that Scruggs style starts sounding good, and it's doubtless more painful to witness when it isn't any good at all. A lot of that is just on account of the sheer brightness and volume of typical bluegrass setups on typical resonator banjos, with typical metal picks. People choosing to learn bluegrass aren't scared of that sound.
Contemporary old time banjo tends to be delivered with a much milder, more digestible tone. Something less likely to attract attention or cut through a mix, but equally unlikely to motivate your spouse to poison your morning coffee. Stands to reason that people choosing a more approachable & less divisive style would go with warmer & quieter instruments. Hence lighter (or no) tone ring and no resonator.
This is (to me, at least) a fascinating development that seems to not be acknowledged or discussed very often. Many old-time banjo players and makers today are aiming for a sound that did not really exist in the past, or at least was not that common or desirable. There has occurred a timbral shift, alongside perhaps more obvious changes in technique and musical interpretation. It's a sound I would describe as "hollow-plunky," which is partly the result of playing over the scoop area at an angle (on a shorter scale banjo, this is around the 1/4 mark of the open strings, which excites them in such a way as to produce mostly fundamental and octave) and partly the result of design/setup (e.g., open-back, stuffed pot, shorter scale lengths, less aggressive tone rings including woodies, bridge positioned closer to middle of head) aimed at reducing the presence of odd-numbered and inharmonic partials -- what otherwise give the banjo it's brightness, nasalness, twang, and so on. And as you suggest, the goal is not "cut through" but rather to blend with guitar/fiddle or simply to sound nice (subjective, of course) by itself. The remarkable thing is that this shift is basically divergent from everything else in banjo land currently and historically, but not, I would argue, from broader trends in contemporary music.
Bingo.
writerrad - Posted - 02/19/2026: 18:57:53
quote:Boy old Eddie would tear up a debate like this. Such a great example.
Originally posted by Don Borchelt
quote:
Originally posted by Bill Rogers
…. The late Cathy Barton played an aluminum-shell(!) resonator Ode her entire career...
I have one of those. I admired one that belonged to my good friend and picking partner, the late Ed Britt, and he found one for me. I used it all the years we went busking in Harvard Square. Mine is a Model 42; the resonator flange and rib are all one piece. I love the sound, very crisp and clean.
SophiaD - Posted - 02/20/2026: 05:02:46
quote:
Originally posted by banjoboyd
Many old-time banjo players and makers today are aiming for a sound that did not really exist in the past, or at least was not that common or desirable. There has occurred a timbral shift, alongside perhaps more obvious changes in technique and musical interpretation. It's a sound I would describe as "hollow-plunky,"
I think I read something that indicated that some of the first recordings of clawhammer style banjoists have that plunky sound, and that there is a current trend to recapture that as an authentic feature of old time music. I wonder if that's a factor.
banjoboyd - Posted - 02/20/2026: 06:23:43
quote:
Originally posted by SophiaD
I think I read something that indicated that some of the first recordings of clawhammer style banjoists have that plunky sound, and that there is a current trend to recapture that as an authentic feature of old time music. I wonder if that's a factor.
If that were indeed the case, then wouldn't we expect to see people building exact replicas of the banjos used on those recordings? We don't need to assume; can anyone here point to a field recording (say, pre-1970s) that exemplifies this tone?
cjwit - Posted - 02/20/2026: 11:01:29
This is a compelling line of thought and I bet a host of folks will add to it. There's a little forum drift here, but if open backs "sound right" for the music, it's fair to ask how and when the expectation of the contemporary open back sound really took hold. I'd expect somewhere in the folk revival as part of circulating recordings, festivals, and what not, so perhaps more of the 50s and 60s rather than the 70s, but I'm out of my depth.
Pete Seeger in 1959, which is not exactly old time or clawhammerish, but certainly of a similar tone quality (and someone who brought many to a specific part of the banjo world): youtube.com/watch?v=bYe-bLaqhhY
A quick search on the previously-mentioned Kyle Creed—I'd expect him to be one of many important figures in this discussion—brought these two videos up. One is 1966, before the 1970s, but not by much, and the other sounds similar and is from the 70s. The second has video, though.
Kyle Creed in 1966 (audio only): youtube.com/watch?v=U96urRbQwbI
Kyle Creed in the 1970s: youtube.com/watch?v=nIMoA2yqUZE
As opposed to Grandpa Jones in 1961 playing clawhammer on a resonator: youtube.com/watch?v=AXyys1JEkbk
These sounds pretty in line with contemporary expectation (and some of my banjos). But, of course, trying to work out a way to differentiate and describe sounds is notoriously difficult, too.
Not an older recording, but Elizabeth Cotton playing Georgia Buck on what is probably an open back that sounds (to me) just like a resonator. So yeah. Banjos are hard. youtube.com/watch?v=IobSpMzmjQY
More specific question for the ramble: when did we really see wire strings take over from nylon? Was that related to specific traditions and settings (like on jazz tenors or whatever)? Was that something that came about before or after the Paramount-then-Gibson style of resonator? This was a fun rabbit hole. Back to work.
banjoboyd - Posted - 02/20/2026: 12:01:23
Chris -- Undoubtedly, the Round Peak crew (Kyle Creed, Tommy Jarrell, Fred Cockerham) have had a big impact on today's old time. Perhaps a singular impact. That's one of the reasons I mention the 70s, because that's when the Round Peak style seems to have really been put on the map (although it was "discovered" by outsiders in the 60s). Another reason is that the 70s were 50 years ago, and 50 years is just long enough for someone to say "That's how grandpappy did it" (and if grandpappy did it that way, who knows how far it really goes back).
So, we could possibly trace the timbral shift back to players like Creed, but to my ear, it's not quite the same. There has been further shifting in the intervening years.
When did the "boutique" old time banjo industry really gain momentum? The 90s? I am thinking of makers like Reiter and Enoch. I think that's an important piece of the puzzle.
Edited by - banjoboyd on 02/20/2026 12:02:21
pinenut - Posted - 02/20/2026: 12:31:49
quote:
Originally posted by SophiaD
quote:
Originally posted by banjoboyd
Many old-time banjo players and makers today are aiming for a sound that did not really exist in the past, or at least was not that common or desirable. There has occurred a timbral shift, alongside perhaps more obvious changes in technique and musical interpretation. It's a sound I would describe as "hollow-plunky,"
I think I read something that indicated that some of the first recordings of clawhammer style banjoists have that plunky sound, and that there is a current trend to recapture that as an authentic feature of old time music. I wonder if that's a factor.
The equipment used for recordings and how the recordings are played is an elephant in this room.
Recordings on magnetic tape, played back via the same and maybe even digitized are reasonably faithful reproductions of the original live sound (not counting purposeful editing).
Recordings on wax or played from records are very different from the actual live sound.
Good luck finding a useful/true recording made before 8-tracks. 
Edited by - pinenut on 02/20/2026 12:34:15
Don Borchelt - Posted - 02/21/2026: 07:18:48
quote:
Originally posted by writerrad
...In fact research on this, such as when for a presentation at the Banjo Gathering about 12 years ago, I looked up what banjoes the African Americans Kip Lornell and others had recorded for the Digital Library of Appalachia actually played., I found that the almost universally played resonator banjos. The few that did not were mostly people who had played resonator banjos until they got in contact with white old time music enthusiasts who decided that they should play Vegas or Fairbanks or other revivalist banjos. and are often pictured holding open back banjos that were NOT THEIR BANJOS, but owned by white old time music enthusiasts who thought they were proper. On the other hand when Odell Thompson whose folkie picture is holding a sweet Fairbanks Special Electric that I believe Cece Conway still owns that was owned by Tommy Thompson and Cece when Tommy was living, was asked by Deering what kind of banjo he wanted, he got a Deering Resonator banjo.
When Doc Watson came upon old time revivalists and for a while about a decade after he was "discovered" by Mike Seeger and Ralph Rinzler, Watson played an RB.
There was no adoption by Southern white or Black continuators of the old time banjo tradition of playing open back back banjos. but a fashion and misunderstanding by mostly urban and college originated old time revivalists of the myth that old time banjo is chiefly played on open back banjos.
It is funny insofar many of the open back banjos of the Fairbanks and Vega vintage. especially many conversions like the 1923 Vega pot with a 5 string neck I should be pickingh instead of typing here were originally built as resonator banjos or came with a detachable resonator, that got lost or jettisoned over the years.
It was about 30 years ago that I bought a 1928 Vega Tubaphone tenor, and had a simple five string semi-fretless neck made for it by a local luthier. Until recently, it was my "go to" banjo. The resonator on the Vega attaches with a bolt through a hole in the center of the plate, which goes into a bracket that fits on the dowel stick. The previous owner had overtightened the screw, which collapsed the resonator plate at the center, creating a huge dimple. I tried to return it to its original profile, with no success. So I went online to ebay, where I immediately found three Vega resonators that had been removed by their old timey owners, because in those days, yes, it was verboten to have a resonator banjo in an old time jam. They were practically giving them away. and I bought them all. I bought a set of the flanges, too, in case I ever needed to replace any of mine.
The old time music revival that started back in the 60s made a great many changes to the culture of old time music that were far more important than just removing the banjo resonators. I remember when I made the trip from Boston down to Union Grove and Galax a couple of times in the early 70s, the local players would say to me, "It's so great to see you northern kids playing this music, our own kids don't want to play it, they laugh at us. All they want to play is country and western or rock and roll." Now, I recognize that's an exaggeration, but I think it is mostly true. But us "northern" kids made a lot of changes while we were at it. Probably most important was the creation of the old time jam. We were mostly city kids, and we lived minutes, not hours away from our musically like minded neighbors. Most Sunday afternoons, I drive over to a church in Brookline, Massachusetts, where a nice young musical family hosts a jam. We all sit in the spacious church hall in a big circle, between 20 to 30 participants, of all skill levels. The jam leader announces the key, and we go around the circle, each attendee introducing the tune they want to play. If someone has trouble starting their tune, the other players will gently musically nudge them into it. If someone starts the tune at a slower than normal tempo, we stay at that comfortable tempo, no one speeds it up, or only just a little, gradually. Now I admit, this jam is unusually considerate, and unusually large, but in general, local old time jam sessions are welcoming affairs. (When you go to Clifftop, that's another matter altogether.) The result is that a lot of new players come into the music all the time. Today, there is at least one public old time jam in every metropolitan area across the country. Anybody can join.
Another thing about old time music today is that it is mostly fiddle tune oriented. Now, that is not a stark contrast from the old days back in the mountains, where a public engagement for a fiddle player was to play tunes either for a dance or at a contest. But if you listen to the old time bands on the old 78 recordings form the 20s and 30s, groups like the Skillet Lickers or the North Carolina Ramblers, vocals were at least as prominent as the fiddle tunes. When Dock Boggs made his recordings, almost all of them were vocals. Still, fiddlers mostly focused on tunes, even then. When Ralph and Carter needed a fiddler back in the day, they were approached by a young Art Stamper. Ralph said in his autobiography that they had to send him home, because he had no idea how to back a vocal. To their surprise, he came back a few months later ready to go, after having played nonstop along with their records. They hired him on the spot.
The young city folk made another major change to old time music that we rarely talk about. They restricted it mostly to fiddle, banjo and guitar, with a wilingness to let in a mandolin or upright base if they agree to behave themselves and not sound like bluegrass. But back in the day, a lot of other instruments were played by old time mountain musicians, including accordian, harmonica, autoharp, mountain and hammered dulcimer, Hawaiian style guitar, piano, and even spoons (or bones). Years ago, i used to busk with a fiddler and guitar player in Harvard Square. Once in awhile, we were joined by an old man everyone called Mr. Bones. As soon as he showed up, our tips would triple. He would never accept a dime. If you think that's extreme, I still remember Frank George playing bagpipes at a couple of his concerts!
I think one of the good things about old time music is that you can't make any money at it. Most of the folks I know of who live exclusively on their musical earnings are making most of the money teaching their instrument, not playing before audiences. It isn't a music that very many people drive miles to listen to, it's a music they drive miles to play. I haven't gone busking with my pals since before Covid, but even on our best days, we barely made minimum wage. Didn't bother me, I live modestly but comfortably on my government pension, thank you very much. The fact that old time music is not a cash cow, I believe, is how it retains it's collectivist, participatory nature, not dominated by a handful of experts.
So did the hippies ruin old time music? Nope, they changed it, mostly for the better. They kept it alive, we kept it alive, and made it stronger than ever.
- Don B.
Edited by - Don Borchelt on 02/21/2026 07:20:31
RB3 - Posted - 02/21/2026: 08:44:21
Today, I think a significant reason why some choose to have or not have a resonator on their banjo is for the purpose of signaling that they embrace one musical genre rather than the other.
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