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banjo bill-e - Posted - 10/08/2025: 11:22:57
Last night watching the Mariners and the Tigers, the announcers mention that Detroit reliever Tommy Kahnle "throws almost all changeups", and later "he stays with the changeup about 85% of the time." With one batter "that's six straight changeups in a row." Now, silly me thought that a changeup was a pitch that looks like a fastbal but is slower in speed to fool the batter, no? And----if you keep throwing the same pitch over and over then it can't legitimately be a "change up" can it? Because nothing is changing! Are they not just relatively slow fastballs? And, since he does on rare occasions throw a fast fastball, is not the fastball now his true "changeup?"
Deep thoughts on a Wednesday afternoon.
chuckv97 - Posted - 10/08/2025: 11:41:22
I’ll have to ponder this for a while, Bill…..
Owen - Posted - 10/08/2025: 12:05:03
I don't think a pitch is named because of the frequency/proportion it's used.
Unless he never threw a fast(er) fastball ... in which case I'd hafta emulate Chuck, i.e. this calls for more pondering.
Deciphering biesbol cliches, idioms, and downright babble could be a full time job, IMNSHumbleO.
P.S. I think those "six straight changeups in a row" was actually, "six straight consecutive changeups in a row." 
Bill Rogers - Posted - 10/08/2025: 12:15:56
Yeah; I’ve been sore puzzled in recent years by the proliferation of “changeups” that engender that obvious question: Change from what? “Changeup” has become the shorthand for “off-speed pitch,” which term makes no claim to be a “change,” but rather a slower-than-typical delivery. Philosophical question addendum: Can a pitcher’s first pitch be a “changeup?” And if so, how?
banjo bill-e - Posted - 10/08/2025: 12:33:07
^^ Bill R. I think so. Pitching is the art of deception. If you fool the batter then you have won. So I would say that IF the batter is "sitting on the fastball" because that is what that pitcher is know for, and/or, this is a situation where a fastball is usually called for, but now the pitcher fools the batter with an unexpected slow pitch, then that would be a first pitch changeup. I think!
chuckv97 - Posted - 10/08/2025: 12:40:00
“Art of deception” is by the wayside if first base coaches relay pitch signs to hitters…. Lately they're using pitch.com, but methinks Steinbrenner's grandson is a tech wizard who has hacked into that system too.... ;-)
Edited by - chuckv97 on 10/08/2025 12:47:44
Owen - Posted - 10/08/2025: 12:49:02
Bearing in mind that my hitting was typically "out on the interstate" ....
In that the changeup delivery is to mimick the fastball delivery of that particular pitcher, "slower-than-typical" refers to that particular pitcher's typical fastball delivery, not that of another pitcher or some league-wide standard, or ???, regardless of the proportion of use. The label we put on the pitches of a two-pitch pitcher [i.e. fastball and change] stays the same regardless of the sequence he employs .... IMNSHumbleO.
Are there two-pitch pitchers who use changeup and curve/slider/slurve/screwball/etc. [i.e. NOT a fastball] as their "other" pitch?
RB3 - Posted - 10/08/2025: 12:58:41
In addition to being slower than the fastball, I suspect that a good change-up also has some kind of movement( left, right, down) that is intended to fool the batter. If the movement is more effective than the speed change in fooling the batter, that might explain why the pitch would be used repetitively.
Bill Rogers - Posted - 10/08/2025: 13:01:38
quote:
Originally posted by banjo bill-e
^^ Bill R. I think so. Pitching is the art of deception. If you fool the batter then you have won. So I would say that IF the batter is "sitting on the fastball" because that is what that pitcher is know for, and/or, this is a situation where a fastball is usually called for, but now the pitcher fools the batter with an unexpected slow pitch, then that would be a first pitch changeup. I think!
Well argued. I'll buy in.
banjo bill-e - Posted - 10/08/2025: 13:07:49
Wow I've never seen ^^ before, the quote runs off of the page but if you click on it, it becomes a link to the full article. Didn't mean to do that.
Owen - Posted - 10/08/2025: 13:08:30
I think the movement (?) is downward primarily due to less energy being transferred to the ball on delivery. I can see a hitter being fooled by thinking: "He's thrown _X__ changes ... so I'm sitting on fastball." [Edit: and if it arrives in it's intended location [i.e. below strike zone], even If the hitter guesses correctly, chances are it will be a lightly hit ground ball???]
Some time back I was watching ball on TV. The pitcher tossed in a 55-footer ... maybe a change, but more likely a fastball. I observed, kinda loudly; "What the heck ya doing?!?!?" A voice from 'round the corner in the kitchen came back: "Washing the floor ... somebody has to do it!"
Edited by - Owen on 10/08/2025 13:13:13
chuckv97 - Posted - 10/08/2025: 13:56:16
If I remember right, a pitcher gets less velocity on a pitch by throwing it with the fingers and not from the palm of the hand, but with the same arm action.
youtu.be/XKMYs-9LW2w?feature=shared
Edited by - chuckv97 on 10/08/2025 13:59:06
Bill Rogers - Posted - 10/08/2025: 13:59:07
As is well-known: Hitting is timing. Pitching is the attempt to screw up that timing. (Or words to that effect.)
raybob - Posted - 10/08/2025: 18:41:17
chuck97,
I was not a pitcher, but I think that the fastball uses the fingers, particularly the index and middle fingers, to power the ball (with the seams for a two-seamer and across the seams for a four-seamer), and for the changeup most pitchers move the ball to the base of the fingers or palm of the hand and use the same motion they use for a fastball. So the arm is moving like they are throwing a fastball, but the fingers that power up a fastball are minimally involved, so the ball doesn't have the same speed on it. There's even different kinds of changeup pitches that totally remove the index finger from having much impact on the delivery like the 'circle-change' for instance. The pitcher holds the ball like he's about to give someone the "ok" sign with the index finger curled in a circle. The baseball is moved over a little toward the pinkie by doing this, and the ball is thrown with the middle, ring, and pinkie fingers taking the index finger right out of it. The ball comes at the batter slower, but with the same arm motion from the pitcher it looks like it might be a fastball.
chuckv97 - Posted - 10/08/2025: 19:58:23
Interesting, Ray ,, thanks.
slammer - Posted - 10/09/2025: 04:59:34
Goooooo Brewers!!!
Slammer!!!
BobbyE - Posted - 10/09/2025: 05:41:21
Your definition of 'changeup,' is what I've always heard as well. So many pitches now its confusing to know what distinguishes one from the other. Heard Tom Glavine, past Braves great pitcher say recently that pitches threw so many different pitches now that he couldn't understand how they could master any of them. And he should know.
Bobby
Owen - Posted - 10/09/2025: 06:24:32
Now, now, Slammer ... don't get carried away. 
BanjoLink - Posted - 10/09/2025: 06:25:19
quote:
Originally posted by RB3
In addition to being slower than the fastball, I suspect that a good change-up also has some kind of movement( left, right, down) that is intended to fool the batter. If the movement is more effective than the speed change in fooling the batter, that might explain why the pitch would be used repetitively.
Correct. I think Bill Rogers "slower than typical delivery" is incorrect and that a change-up is designed to have the same delivery motion as a fastball. It is the way the ball is gripped and released that slows the ball down ...... not the delivery. I also understand what BillE is saying in his first post, but the change-up is a particular type pf pitch regardless of how many times it is thrown. If not, I guess you could call a slider a "change-up" after throwing six fastballs in a row.
STUD figmo Al - Posted - 10/09/2025: 07:47:55
Way to deep n fill-ah-sockfull... of a subject... Fer me to compensate... :0/
BanjoLink - Posted - 10/09/2025: 09:11:42
quote:
Originally posted by STUD figmo Al
Way to deep n fill-ah-sockfull... of a subject... Fer me to compensate... :0/
Al ..... some things are just too complicated!
Owen - Posted - 10/09/2025: 14:21:28
.... you mean like: "See the ball; hit the ball." ??
I was familiar with the quote, but couldn't recall its origin.
"Looking it up," tells me it was Pete Rose. ...... but I wouldn't bet the farm.
BanjoLink - Posted - 10/09/2025: 15:21:45
quote:
Originally posted by raybob
chuck97,
I was not a pitcher, but I think that the fastball uses the fingers, particularly the index and middle fingers, to power the ball (with the seams for a two-seamer and across the seams for a four-seamer), and for the changeup most pitchers move the ball to the base of the fingers or palm of the hand and use the same motion they use for a fastball. So the arm is moving like they are throwing a fastball, but the fingers that power up a fastball are minimally involved, so the ball doesn't have the same speed on it. There's even different kinds of changeup pitches that totally remove the index finger from having much impact on the delivery like the 'circle-change' for instance. The pitcher holds the ball like he's about to give someone the "ok" sign with the index finger curled in a circle. The baseball is moved over a little toward the pinkie by doing this, and the ball is thrown with the middle, ring, and pinkie fingers taking the index finger right out of it. The ball comes at the batter slower, but with the same arm motion from the pitcher it looks like it might be a fastball.
Correct on all counts!
I played fast pitch softball in both the Textile League in my hometown (often on the same field that Shoeless Joe Jackson played on) and later when I was in the Marine Corps. As you might guess, a larger softball is easier to curve, drop, and even a rise ball (called a riser although it does not actually rise but appears to due to spin and trajectory). I was pretty good hitter, but could not hit a change-up. If any of our opposing pitchers ever kept a book on me, my average would have been around 00.0.
Owen - Posted - 10/09/2025: 15:33:48
I've read/seen the science w.r.t the riser, but, but, but .....
We had a guy that made it to the Winnipeg Colonels [top level in the country], but prior to that was a team mate on our lower level team. When he threw a riser without telling me, I often couldn't catch it .... I was holding my glove too low. IF the illusion was that it was rising, my logic says that I would have been holding my glove above it's actual trajectory. No wonder I wasn't one of the team's stalwarts. 
RB3 - Posted - 10/10/2025: 06:56:01
When Rose used the phrase "see the ball; hit the ball", he was quoting Tony Perez.
banjo bill-e - Posted - 10/10/2025: 09:04:22
But most humans can't see the ball where they can hit it. They have to swing to where they think the ball will be. Ted Williams had amazing vision, and could actually see the stitches on the ball while it was on the way to the plate. Then he could tell you if he hit it on the stitches or not. But that is superhuman sight beyond most mortals.
banjo bill-e - Posted - 10/10/2025: 13:47:45
This story is about when he had retired as a player and was managing, at age 53. From umpire Luciano.
=====" Ted told the umpires he could still see the ball hit the bat. The umpires called him out and arranged for the fastest throwing pitcher to throw 10 balls to Williams while swinging a pine tar covered bat. Ted would yell no seam, 1seam, etc. If I remember correctly, Ted hit 8 balls of 10 and of those the 8, Ted's call on the number of seams hit was correct.===="
Who knows if true or not, but when playing he said that he could see the red seams and tell if the ball was spinning clockwise or counterclockwise.
Williams was the best hitter in history, but nobody even tries to swing like him. TW had an upward swing. All batters today hit down on the ball, and that is how new hitters are taught to swing a bat.
Owen - Posted - 10/10/2025: 14:47:00
I've not taught/coached in m-a-n-y years, so I dunno.... but to my mind it would be pretty difficult to hit a fly ball with any significant power if the swing is "down."
I VW'd* from first year physics, so high school it is for me, but I figure that, from the batter's perspective, the plane/path of the bat would be best when it closely matched the path/plane of the ball. I.e the downward trajectory of the ball from release point to the hitting zone would best be countered by a matching/off-setting/opposite upward trajectory of the bat. If they're in the same plane then the other major factor would be how deep in/into the strike zone the ball traveled .... i.e. "squaring it up"** would result in shots to center field; [for rt. handed batter] the bat head out front >> ball goes toward left field and bat head "behind" >> ball goes ball goes to the right.
Now add in ball movement and we see why .300 >>> talk of H of F.
* and VW don't mean VolksWagen.
** that's my take on squaring it up.... I still haven't figured out what the "experts" mean when they use the term. [Ditto for "dropping the bat head" ... especially when it's done mid-swing.]
Owen - Posted - 10/10/2025: 15:46:13
Both. Unless my eyes deceive me, the swing ends higher than it is at it's low point [i.e. an upward path*] , and though I can't actually see the contact point, IF it wasn't at or a smidgen below the centerline [in relation to the plane of the pitch/swing] it would be a line drive or a ground ball.
Anyhoo... that MY story and I'm sticking to it .... unless somebody demonstrates that I don't know of what I speak.
* probably close to the same plane as the pitch.
BanjoLink - Posted - 10/11/2025: 06:14:57
My close friend Bob Cupp (a fellow Golf Course Architect that started his career with Jack Nicklaus) illustrated Ted Williams book on the science of hitting. Bob played baseball at the University of Miami and majored in art and was an excellent artist. He told me when he did the sketches of Williams hitting he went to Boston and met his at a little soda shop where they sat down ordered milk shakes, and sat for hours with Williams explaining what he wanted to see in the sketches. Pretty neat!
biblio.com/book/science-hittin...SKnAojb5vbiblio.com/book/science-hittin...SKnAojb5v
banjo bill-e - Posted - 10/11/2025: 06:33:37
Look at where batters hold their hands at the beginning of the swing. Williams' hands were held lower than what you typically see today.
randybartlett - Posted - 10/11/2025: 06:40:16
I made to the 14th inning, then awoke to see the Mariners had beat Detroit in the 15th. Alas...
RB3 - Posted - 10/11/2025: 07:08:49
Here's another question. The object of the game is for the batter to strike the pitched ball with the bat. If the batter is unable to strike the pitched ball with the bat, why do we call that a "strike"?
chuckv97 - Posted - 10/11/2025: 08:08:18
Cuz the pitcher strikes it rich
Owen - Posted - 10/11/2025: 08:08:44
I dunno ..... because it's not a "ball" ???
I wouldn't be surprised if the "why" is similar to the "why" behind a l-o-t of other labels we put on things [whatever that may be].
CW Spook - Posted - 10/11/2025: 09:47:58
"This is a simple game. You throw the ball, you hit the ball, you catch the ball. ", Skip Riggins, Bull Durham
Owen - Posted - 10/20/2025: 15:26:18
... an interesting tid-bit I hadn't heard about before; I haven't "fact-checked" anything, and I do realize it spans parts of 2 seasons:
From Baseball's Greatest moments >> my Facebook >> BHO:
"In the 162 games that Wade Boggs appeared in between June 9, 1985 and June 6, 1986, he batted .401."
