jsinjin - Posted - 09/22/2025:  06:46:26

I obviously learn and play banjo by a very non standard way.

This weekend my family and I were out at dinner at a place that had a beer garden and was celebrating Oktoberfest. A medium sized band was there and they all had instruments and were playing German style polkas and beer drinking songs. But they used sheet music completely and had a conductor. When I asked one of the musicians about playing by ear she said that she only played from sheet music. She played a French horn and said no one in their group played by ear or just picking up a song.

This was actually what I assumed all music was like when I started playing the banjo. In fact I had no idea there was any other type. Growing up in Houston my family attended the nutcracker ballet annually and my maternal grandfather played pipe organ both at church and at the university of Houston on their giant organ sometimes kn weekends. A few times he let me t turn the pages of the sheet music he was using and when he would nod his head I would turn the page and be very careful.

I also teach at a college in ft worth where the Van Cliburn piano competition is held every two years for the masters and every other two years for the professional competition. While those people don’t use the sheet music while playing for the judges, they do use it for practice (which I actually enjoy watching when the competition is on campus).

The only concerts I attended young were a John Denver concert at the summit in Houston and the summer classical music things outdoors at a big park near the zoo.

I just assumed that all music used scores for the setup and the band this weekend did. Although I was volunteering at a huge festival in town two weeks ago called Grapefest and I noticed the various bands on the stage didn’t use sheet music.

Did I just sort of pick the wrong instrument if I thought I was going to learn note by note? I’m far too invested now to go back and change regardless of the sunk cost fallacy but is there a significant gulf between the way that a symphony or even middle school concert band learns music and a banjo or guitar or something more popular like that?

Culloden - Posted - 09/22/2025:  07:13:37

You can read a story in a book and tell it to someone later. It may not be word for word, but the jist of the story remains the same. It's the same way when you play music by ear. You play the same notes that are written on the page, more or less, but you don't have the page in front of you. If you want to learn by note, Mel Bay published a beginner banjo book which was written in standard notation and taught by Sonny Osborne.
I originally learned to play by note when I learned the guitar. When I picked up the banjo a couple of years later, I had enough background to play without having notes in front of me, which was a good thing because most people I grew up playing with couldn't read music.
Over the years I have learned a number of instruments. The notes remain the same from one instrument to another, it's the technique that changes. There are some nuances that you just can't write down on sheet music. That's why many people who play folk instruments don't play by reading music.

amsweet - Posted - 09/22/2025:  07:28:30

Based on your previous posts, I assume you are asking about playing clawhammer banjo. If you were asking about a different style, such a classic banjo, my response would be different.

To answer this question, I think you need to figure out what your goals are.

If you just want to play by yourself, I do not see any significant harm in exclusively learning exclusively from TAB. You will, of course, be limited by which tunes have been transcribed and how those tunes have been arranged. If you hear a tune or a version of a tune that you really like but that has not been transcribed, you will not be able to play it.

This may just be me, but I also find that the tunes I learn from tab do not "stick" as well and tend to be static when I play them. The tunes I learn by ear seem to embed themselves more deeply and allow me to be more playful with variations. As a result, I much prefer playing the tunes that I learned from ear.

If you want to play with other musicians, you would need to find people who are willing to play to the version of the tune that you know and stick to playing the version of the tune you know. It may be difficult to find people like this, given the culture of Old Time music. A lot of the fun of playing tunes with other people comes from the give and take that occurs and the variations that pop up.

I will also say that, if you practice learning tunes by ear, it will get easier over time. While you may have started this process thinking you would learn tunes note by note, that does not mean that you cannot begin to learn how to play tunes by ear (if you have an objection to learning by ear, though, that's a different story). Either way, I think you can still derive plenty of joy from playing the banjo in whichever you want to approach it.

Mad Hornet - Posted - 09/22/2025:  08:00:55

That's how it was when I played sax in school. All sheet music. I've actually seen a 7 piece band at a bar here locally all playing with sheet music. Still sounded good.

Texasbanjo - Posted - 09/22/2025:  08:17:10

For years I played piano, clarinet, tenor sax all by sheet music. I knew that some people played without the music in front of them, but didn't know how they did it.

Years later I got started on banjo. Learned to read tab and memorize it. Then I could play without looking at the music. Unfortunately, that didn't help much when I started trying to play with others. I had no idea about chord structure or how a chord sounded. I could hear melody notes, but didn't know how to get them on the banjo.

Much woodshedding later, I figured out the melodies to songs. Listened to people play in jams, tried to hear different chords. Wasn't easy at first, but eventually, I could hear the chord changes. That changed everything for me. No more tabs or sheet music. Listen, figure out chord structure and melody. Didn't happen easily or overnight, but it did happen.

If I did it, you can too. It just takes lots of practice and listening and getting your ear tuned to hear certain sounds.

banjoboyd - Posted - 09/22/2025:  08:51:02

quote:

---

Originally posted by jsinjin

Did I just sort of pick the wrong instrument if I thought I was going to learn note by note? I’m far too invested now to go back and change regardless of the sunk cost fallacy but is there a significant gulf between the way that a symphony or even middle school concert band learns music and a banjo or guitar or something more popular like that?

---

I'm going to answer this a bit differently...



It comes down to differences in musical setting, which includes how people learn and remember musical information as well as use/interpret that information during performance. That is a more fundamental thing than what people tend to do on a particular instrument. Any instrument can be played from memory, played from notation, improvised, or some combination of the three. 



Orchestras use scores because 1) the composer left specific instructions for each instrument, 2) there are many different musical parts that need to happen in a coordinated fashion, 3) in rehearsal, the conductor/director needs a fixed reference to communicate with the musicians (e.g., "Please start on the 14th bar of the second section") 4) orchestral musicians play a lot of music, and the compositions can be very long, and they don't have time to memorize all their parts.



A soloist in an orchestra will typically play from memory because 1) as the soloist, they are expected to truly master their part, 2) beyond a certain point, sheet music becomes a distraction rather than an aid, and 3) it looks more impressive. 



When it comes to a jazz combo, they may use a kind of shorthand notation (a lead sheet) that tells you the chord changes and maybe the main melody, but the individual parts are not "composed." Each musician is making up a part as they go. That's different than music for big band, which typically has some parts fully written out (e.g., saxophones/horns) and others not (drums, bass).



Bands in popular genres (rock, pop, RnB, etc.) typically don't use sheet music. Someone will come up with an idea for a song -- maybe it's lyrics, maybe a short melody, maybe a guitar riff -- and the musicians work individually and as a group to flesh it out. This is also a form of composing, it just doesn't necessary involve writing things down. And because the songs are relatively short and simple, everyone memorizes their part. 



That's different again than cover bands playing popular genres (the kind you might hear in a bar/restaurant). Those musicians may not practice together much, if at all, and they're expected to be able to play a lot of songs, including audience requests. So they often carry binders full of lead sheets and lyrics. 



Bluegrass and old-time music are essentially "by ear" traditions. You listen, you imitate, you elaborate. The individual parts are not fixed/composed, but the music is structurally and stylistically much more restricted than jazz. It's part of the culture of the music as well; you learn tunes from directly interacting with other players. Tab exists, but tab is really describing what a particular player did in a particular context. It's a record of a performance, not a set of instructions for how to play "the tune." 



None of this is specific to the banjo. But in practice, because most people associate the banjo exclusively with bluegrass/old-time, they assume that the forms of knowledge transmission and musical interaction found in those musics is somehow inherent to the instrument itself. They're not. 

Corwyn - Posted - 09/22/2025:  09:23:13

The important part is the music. Whatever gets you there is fine.

Thank you kindly.

pinenut - Posted - 09/22/2025:  11:06:11

quote:

---

Originally posted by jsinjin

Did I just sort of pick the wrong instrument if I thought I was going to learn note by note?  Yes you did, instruments that play naturally with sheet music usually blow, have four strings or are a piano.  (not counting ukulele, harmonica, etc)

Is there a significant gulf between the way that a symphony or even middle school concert band learns music and a banjo or guitar or something more popular like that?  Yes, get a penny whistle and investigate it.  It was/is enlightening for me.  Musically, many/most other instruments make more sense than a banjo.

---

joke:  What do you call a fiddle without a banjo?  ... a violin.

Edited by - pinenut on 09/22/2025 11:06:38

Bill Rogers - Posted - 09/22/2025:  11:45:36

I read neither music nor tab. I learn by ear and by watching. As to assuming all music is written, think about composing: nothing written there; it all has to be in the mind and limagination of the composer, as it is in the mind of someone who plays by ear.

Old Hickory - Posted - 09/22/2025:  12:12:39

quote:

---

Originally posted by jsinjin

Did I just sort of pick the wrong instrument if I thought I was going to learn note by note?  . . . is there a significant gulf between the way that a symphony or even middle school concert band learns music and a banjo or guitar or something more popular like that?

---

Definitely yes to all. I believe several of us have been trying to tell you this from your first postings last year about your musical challenges.

Yes, clawhammer/old time banjo does not play linear note-by-note music as do piano, violin, or any orchestral instrument. It's also a non-literal type of music in that it hints at and pares down melody and plays additional notes to provide its own harmony, fill and musical texture.  Since you are doing something other than play one note after another, you don't learn it the same way. And the written form of clawhammer music -- tablature -- is not practical for reading from during performance. Clawhammer is best memorized.

What if a player doesn't remember perfectly? Doesn't matter, because . . .

The old time canon has mostly been handed down through oral and aural tradition, which leads to the songs having acquired variations in melody and even harmony (chord progression), often regionally. Yet they can still be recognized as the same song. Individual players can vary those variations even further and the songs are still recognized -- by people who can hear how music goes -- as the same song.

For the very good reasons explained by Ethan above, formal, composed, music for orchestras, pianists and the like is written down and nearly always performed as written the same way every time. But old time music, as well as bluegrass, folk, blues, jazz, rock -- any genre in which performers can improvise while following the structure of any song -- allows for variation from one performance to the next.

You discovered early on clawhammer banjo music is not typically written in standard notation (I'm saying "typically" so as to avoid absolutes). Clawhammer is written in tablature because that's the best way to write how to play a piece of clawhammer banjo music. And that's because where you play each note and the way you fret and stroke the strings is every bit as important as the name of the note being played. Tablature is the most widely accepted form for transmitting that in writing.

Where does this lead?

Unless I'm terribly mistaken, I believe you've told us countless times you don't listen to or particularly like banjo music. You can't hear chord changes when they happen and can't anticipate when they're going to happen. You can't match notes or always tell which note is higher or lower.

I also believe you told us it was some type of 4-string banjo music that inspired you to get a banjo but, not knowing the difference, bought a 5-string.

This may not be for me to say, but I disagree you're too far invested in clawhammer to stop and start over with the type of banjo that you intended to learn in the first place. You'll probably have to learn new locations for the notes, since the tuning is likely to be different. But that should be easy for you. Each fret is still one half-step. But since 4-string -- whether 17- or 19-fret tenor or 22-fret plectrum -- plays linear note-by-note melodies, you might take to it more quickly. I think there's less mystery as to what's happening. There's also the strumming Dixieland, jazz or ragtime style of banjo. I don't know if that's what you're after.  I have to admit, I don't know which version of 4-string banjo is best for that. Probably one of the tenors.

I think what you've learned about music trying to tackle clawhammer will serve you in pursuing 4-string. Not everything is transferable, but music is music and theory is theory regardless of the instrument you choose to play.

And who knows, maybe learning 4-string will make some light bulb go off and it will help you get clawhammer.

Eric A - Posted - 09/22/2025:  12:26:11

What's the difference? Play by tab? Play by sheet music? How is one superior to the other? Either you have it in your head, or you don't. It's just another way of writing it down.

Edited by - Eric A on 09/22/2025 12:28:29

Eric A - Posted - 09/22/2025:  12:34:27

What annoys me is, whether it's Mozart or Bill Monroe, people get locked into That's How It Has To Be. There are Monroe tunes where people are "well it's always played in the key of B". Why?

Rocky Top is in a certain key.   Banks of the Ohio is in a certain key.   Reuben is in a certain key.  Why?

Edited by - Eric A on 09/22/2025 12:39:48

Old Hickory - Posted - 09/22/2025:  12:53:27

quote:

---

Originally posted by banjoboyd

Bands in popular genres (rock, pop, RnB, etc.) typically don't use sheet music. Someone will come up with an idea for a song -- maybe it's lyrics, maybe a short melody, maybe a guitar riff -- and the musicians work individually and as a group to flesh it out. This is also a form of composing, it just doesn't necessary involve writing things down. And because the songs are relatively short and simple, everyone memorizes their part. 



That's different again than cover bands playing popular genres (the kind you might hear in a bar/restaurant). Those musicians may not practice together much, if at all, and they're expected to be able to play a lot of songs, including audience requests. So they often carry binders full of lead sheets and lyrics. 

 

Having played in cover bands as well as bluegrass and Americana/Celtic bands that mostly played covers or others' songs, I'm going to disagree a little. Only a little.

Bands I was in did not use sheet music to play. And maybe only occasionally to learn.

Mostly we learned by ear, either by listening as a group to a recording of the song, or one of us suggested the song and played it for the rest if they knew it, or we worked up an arrangement by ear trusting our memory of how the song goes (cleaned up at the next practice with reference to lyrics and chords). 

Everyone in my 1970s country-rock band (I played bass) and 1980s bluegrass band (banjo) played without music or lyrics+chords sheets. In the 2000s, some of my bandmates needed sheets. Over the years there were maybe two or three songs I had trouble remembering, so I sometimes needed a sheet. Mostly not.

I'm not sure bar/restaurant cover bands don't practice together, unless perhaps they're gigging every weekend and everyone has day jobs.  I agree this type of band will often have binders full of songs to handle requests. They'll be familiar enough with a song to know its important riffs and structure, but need the lyrics and maybe chords if it's not in their regular repertoire. Usually at least one player needs to know it really well.

We went on an Alaska cruise last year and the lounge band was one of these. They were actually hired by the cruise line to be the band and learn the curated multi-genre repertoire (different genre each of three sets every night, with one night off per week). One member of the band was the leader/manager. For all I know she hired the band. I do know they weren't a band that existed off the ship and each musician worked as an employee of Holland America. Great gig if you have the chops.

-  -  -  -  -

Overall I think your post was excellent. I hope it got through to John as to how different types of music are learned and performed, and when and why sheet music is used or not.

jsinjin - Posted - 09/22/2025:  12:53:36

I didn’t mean to get too far into what I’ve chosen or not to play so I apologize for bringing that into the discussion.

I’ve learned a fair number of songs now and I’m finding that the rate that I learn them is getting faster and faster as the “chunking” of memory is finding patterns in the songs that repeat a lot.

The reason I asked this question is that the group of polka orchestra players seemed to be able to jam but that jamming was sight reading. The older woman with the piccolo I spoke with said she can’t play by ear at all but can sight read most classical and polka pieces. They did have a conductor and he was an integral part of their music.

But my upbringing and connection to any semblance of music was insignificant-similar to someone’s exposure to some tiny foreign language and I had assumed that all music was just notes, Mozart and sight reading with people getting better and better at that.

I truly did embark on this with the primary intention of learning how music works and a little bit to learn a few songs which I have been doing. This week I was able to play good king Wenceslas from memory and because 12 days of Christmas kinda has only two parts, that one is coming along well.

But I also admit that then and now, I don’t enjoy the idea of playing in a group, trying to guess notes when they are played by ear and trying to guesss chord changes. It’s very very hard and not hard in the way that learning to ski is hard and fun, it’s hard and not enjoyable like getting a filling or doing complicated tax documents. I don’t enjoy it and most of the time I guess wrong.

I just saw a group this weekend playing together with many many songs in a lively and fun way (I would pass on the lederhosen and alpine hats) and they weren’t playing by ear at all and was curious about the use case and way they were using sheet music compared to the old time style.

pinenut - Posted - 09/22/2025:  13:40:16

quote:

---

Originally posted by jsinjin

I had assumed that all music was just notes, Mozart and sight reading with people getting better and better at that.  All music is "just notes" and people get better at reproducing/coloring the notes consistently; it's not the reading.  Also, don't forget that aural music traditions initially relied on memory because they couldn't get/afford paper.



But I also admit that then and now, I don’t enjoy the idea of playing in a group, trying to guess notes when they are played by ear and trying to guess chord changes. It’s very very hard and not hard in the way that learning to ski is hard and fun, it’s hard and not enjoyable like getting a filling.  I don’t enjoy it and most of the time I guess wrong.  Jams are miserable until a person can play along with some of the tunes.  Most of the 'visible' players at any jam already 'know' the tunes.  It's an uncommon kind of player that just grabs hold of an unknown tune and 'rocks it' (this is pro level). 



I just saw a group this weekend playing together with many many songs in a lively and fun way (I would pass on the lederhosen and alpine hats) and they weren’t playing by ear at all and was curious about the use case and way they were using sheet music compared to the old time style.  Good musicians in keep the tunes in their heads too.  The experienced players won't be totally lost if they lose their sheet(s).

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Edited by - pinenut on 09/22/2025 13:56:00

banjoboyd - Posted - 09/22/2025:  13:53:57

Ken -- Absolutely; it's such a situational thing, and difficult to generalize. There are also funny (IMO) scenarios of people pretending to use sheet music because it looks "proper" or conversely using it but trying to hide it.

John -- No need to apologize. In the case of the polka band, the individual musicians may not be familiar with every piece, but the combination of 1) their sight-reading ability 2) their familiarity with the musical conventions of polka, and 3) visual cues from the conductor enables the group to perform in a cohesive way with limited rehearsal.

Old Hickory - Posted - 09/22/2025:  13:54:29

quote:

Originally posted by Eric A:

What's the difference? Play by tab? Play by sheet music? How is one superior to the other? Either you have it in your head, or you don't. It's just another way of writing it down.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

The issue is not tab vs notation as a way to learn or read music.

The issue is that the music John wanted to learn is played on a 4-string, but not knowing the difference he bought a 5-string open back. His search for lessons therefore led him to a clawhammer teacher. He was somewhat taken aback that the teacher didn't use sheet music as he had seen other music students -- including children -- use. Regardless of the merits of notation or tablature in general, clawhammer banjo music is written in tablature. Mainly because positions and strokes matter more than the name of the note being played.



But again, tablature is not the issue. The issue is, as John asked today:

"Did I just sort of pick the wrong instrument if I thought I was going to learn note by note? . . . is there a significant gulf between the way that a symphony or even middle school concert band learns music and a banjo...?"

Edited by - Old Hickory on 09/22/2025 13:55:43

jsinjin - Posted - 09/22/2025:  14:59:26

I think there is a bit of a mistake in a former post of mine somewhere. I went to a reasonably high end music store with no specific kind of instrument as a goal. I looked at guitars and bass instruments and tried them and then settled on a pretty fancy banjo which is a 5 string banjo. Much later (maybe a couple of years) I found a 4 string by the same luthier which I bought just because I think they are beautiful. But my original plan to buy an instrument was not with any type of goal. I wanted to learn to play an instrument, went to a store with no knowledge of anything, tried a guitar and couldn’t get my fingers to press down on the strings to the frets for guitars and bass instruments but I could with a banjo. I also selected clawhammer because that day when I came home I realized I didn’t have any of the finger picks that the bluegrass players use so with googling I selected clawhammer as the Josh brainjo thing showed clawhammer as a way to play without any picks. That’s exactly how I landed on banjo and clawhammer. The only banjo songs I was familiar with were Kermit the frog from
The muppet movie, Garth brooks calling Baton Rouge and a song by Dave Matthew’s band called blood in the water or something. Maybe a few others but they don’t come to mind.

But my choice of banjo was just going to a fancy store and buying what I thought was the nicest looking and nicest sounding instrument. It also helped that the maker was from Texas which I love as well. And I have had zero problems with the instrument at all, I love the thing every time I pick it up and play it.

Besides all of that, I was just curious why there were differences in a band playing polka polka polka (Home Alone reference) vs a bluegrass jam that I attended with regard to sheet music. This explains it.

250gibson - Posted - 09/22/2025:  16:34:05

quote:

---

Originally posted by jsinjin

I didn’t mean to get too far into what I’ve chosen or not to play so I apologize for bringing that into the discussion.



I’ve learned a fair number of songs now and I’m finding that the rate that I learn them is getting faster and faster as the “chunking” of memory is finding patterns in the songs that repeat a lot.



The reason I asked this question is that the group of polka orchestra players seemed to be able to jam but that jamming was sight reading. The older woman with the piccolo I spoke with said she can’t play by ear at all but can sight read most classical and polka pieces. They did have a conductor and he was an integral part of their music.



But my upbringing and connection to any semblance of music was insignificant-similar to someone’s exposure to some tiny foreign language and I had assumed that all music was just notes, Mozart and sight reading with people getting better and better at that.



I truly did embark on this with the primary intention of learning how music works and a little bit to learn a few songs which I have been doing. This week I was able to play good king Wenceslas from memory and because 12 days of Christmas kinda has only two parts, that one is coming along well.



But I also admit that then and now, I don’t enjoy the idea of playing in a group, trying to guess notes when they are played by ear and trying to guesss chord changes. It’s very very hard and not hard in the way that learning to ski is hard and fun, it’s hard and not enjoyable like getting a filling or doing complicated tax documents. I don’t enjoy it and most of the time I guess wrong.



I just saw a group this weekend playing together with many many songs in a lively and fun way (I would pass on the lederhosen and alpine hats) and they weren’t playing by ear at all and was curious about the use case and way they were using sheet music compared to the old time style.

---

The polka band you saw was not jamming. They were performing  polkas arranged for a German brass band. Each of these instruments can only play one note at a time, so each musician needs to know which note to play and when in order to create the melody/harmony the composer intended.   A polka arranged for this type of band will be quite different then the same polka arranged for an accordion, or guitar or banjo or piano. The French horn player for example may play the same arrangement, but may be assigned a different part; ie 1st horn one night, 2nd horn another. Sheet music keeps this all straight for the ensemble. 

Polkas arranged for solo piano, accordion, guitar, banjo, or other instrument capable of producing more then one note at a time can still play the same composition as the brass ensemble, but they will need to play  a different arrangement that allows them to create the harmony and melody at the same time. Some of these players play from sheet music (someone else's arrangement) and some arrange on the fly, which is pretty much playing by ear. Jamming is many instruments playing the same composition, but arranging it on the fly. 

Old Hickory - Posted - 09/22/2025:  17:09:47

quote:

---

Originally posted by jsinjin

But my choice of banjo was just going to a fancy store and buying what I thought was the nicest looking and nicest sounding instrument.

---

I'm sorry I mischaracterized and remembered incorrectly what led you to buy the 5-string open back. I recalled it was from no specific intent to play clawhammer. I got the rest wrong. I meant no harm in that.

That you're learning songs faster is a good sign. Progress.

Old Hickory - Posted - 09/22/2025:  17:27:48

quote:

---

Originally posted by jsinjin

The reason I asked this question is that the group of polka orchestra players seemed to be able to jam but that jamming was sight reading. The older woman with the piccolo I spoke with said she can’t play by ear at all but can sight read most classical and polka pieces.

---

Some of these musicians may in fact be able to jam, but that's not the ability they demonstrated in the performance you saw. What you saw was a band playing music exactly as written, performing under the direction of a conductor. That implies rehearsed. The opposite of jamming.

OK, if a bunch of musicians get together for fun and none of them are ear players who can only play off their sheet music and they do it without a conductor, are they jamming? Maybe. What if some are ear players and can play solos totally different than what's in the sheet music. Are they jamming? Probably.

As to the piccolo player: It totally surprises me that someone can be good enough to sight read for a live performance and not be able to play by ear. Seems to me after enough years of playing, a person can't avoid developing the ability to hear what's happening around them and play something that fits. Not expecting someone to play a fully realized melody by ear after hearing another instrument play it just once. But at least be able to tweet some notes that fit what's going on. Steal phrases from all those other songs she's played in her life. Has nothing stuck in her memory? I'm truly amazed.

stanleytone - Posted - 09/23/2025:  03:17:34

Try to imagine a bluegrass band on stage , each one with a music stand in front of them with tab or sheet music . Eeeeek!

What truly amazed me was to watch an old video of Van Cliburn play an entire concerto without sheet music. Only God can give that gift.

youtu.be/6qROema2MDI?si=YKF-K-tTj9N0HiGY

Edited by - stanleytone on 09/23/2025 03:21:51

jsinjin - Posted - 09/23/2025:  07:20:18

quote:

---

Originally posted by stanleytone

Try to imagine a bluegrass band on stage , each one with a music stand in front of them with tab or sheet music . Eeeeek!

What truly amazed me was to watch an old video of Van Cliburn play an entire concerto without sheet music. Only God can give that gift.

youtu.be/6qROema2MDI?si=YKF-K-tTj9N0HiGY

---

I never saw Van Cliburn play.  I saw him at the school annually and at the ft worth bass hall in attendance but didn't see him play.  I did watch all of the young Cliburn performers in the practice halls at the college with their teachers and music and they definitely played their practice work with sheet music.   On stage it was from memory but their notes and music on Chopin or whatever was with sheet music and the coach or teacher discussing all sorts of minute details on how the piece should be focused etc.   I'm sure it's very nerve wracking.

jsinjin - Posted - 09/23/2025:  07:57:17

quote:

---

Originally posted by Old Hickory

quote:

---

Originally posted by jsinjin

The reason I asked this question is that the group of polka orchestra players seemed to be able to jam but that jamming was sight reading. The older woman with the piccolo I spoke with said she can’t play by ear at all but can sight read most classical and polka pieces.

---

Some of these musicians may in fact be able to jam, but that's not the ability they demonstrated in the performance you saw. What you saw was a band playing music exactly as written, performing under the direction of a conductor. That implies rehearsed. The opposite of jamming.

OK, if a bunch of musicians get together for fun and none of them are ear players who can only play off their sheet music and they do it without a conductor, are they jamming? Maybe. What if some are ear players and can play solos totally different than what's in the sheet music. Are they jamming? Probably.

As to the piccolo player: It totally surprises me that someone can be good enough to sight read for a live performance and not be able to play by ear. Seems to me after enough years of playing, a person can't avoid developing the ability to hear what's happening around them and play something that fits. Not expecting someone to play a fully realized melody by ear after hearing another instrument play it just once. But at least be able to tweet some notes that fit what's going on. Steal phrases from all those other songs she's played in her life. Has nothing stuck in her memory? I'm truly amazed.

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I'll be honest I didn't follow up with the piccolo player about whether or not she played by ear or how.   And I didn't really know there was a difference between the technical terms of jamming vs a rehearsed performance.   Shows my naivety on music.  Imagine for just a moment that someone's only exposure to any music over a 50 year life was a few symphony based concerts and a sister who took piano lessons as well as working at a college where there was a conservatory and classical music.   And that person was completely ignorant of guitar music or bands and certainly didn't enjoy popular music or singalongs and didn't attend festivals or concerts.   I think it's conceivable that someone with that exposure would assume that music was note by note composition on a score to create each part for an individual instrument then when it all comes together with individual practice under a conductor it sounds good as a piece of music.   That's literally what I assume all music was.   Then I started reading on this forum and began to realize that lots of the bands I ignored at local festivals or restaurants etc didn't use sheet music.  In fact it may be likely that the accomplished players didn't study music theory (But Of Course There Are Obvious Exceptions BOCTAOE-they could and there is a university near me called University of North Texas that has a college of music with guitar performance as a course of study and I've learned that those performers study both types of play by ear and with sheet music).

my assumption a few years ago was that I would select an instrument- the specific choice didn't matter to me very much because I didn't have an opinion on what I played or why I chose it-learn to read music, proactive and learn to play songs by picking up a piece of sheet music and halfway playing and figuring it out note by note.   The only factors were that the instrument be portable for camping and that I could see myself practicing with it.   Had I known that the culture of a lot of instruments in certain styles is the joy that comes from playing in groups, ad libbing, guessing songs and joining songs you aren't familiar with I would have limited choices further.  But I have found I love practicing this instrument a lot.

so when I saw a group (let's not call them a band because the title was "the somethjng something german orchestra of north Texas" and I watched them play and they each had music stands and sheet music and seemed like the orchestras I watched I wondered if what I was seeing was part of my lack of knowledge and bad assumptions on music styles and playing.   But the piccolo player was nice and explained to me how the group practiced each at home rarely getting together except for a few rehearsals and then performing and it's always from sheet music, practicing alone then with knowledge of the conductor they could play together, that style of play sounded much more comforting to me than my exposure to jams and the rather coarse and harsh feelings of the bluegrass jams I attended.   The James I went to had no interaction with a newcomer, there was no sheet music or even announcement of songs, they sort of nodded to each other and played, they played fast and very intense.  My fastest playing in a metronome is perhoaps 60-80 beats per min and this was so fast I often couldn't even tell what they were playing least aline the chord changes that I have difficult with.   Watching the German music group (I have no interest in polka music) I felt like if I had the sheet musics they were playing from I could be able to read along and know the notes, timing, quarter, eighth, sharps and flats all the way through and that seemed to make more sense to me.   

 

that was the difference I was asking about.  The music at the jam sessions was closed, chaotic, dependent on some unseen knowledge to play and unknown cues and an understanding of the dynamics that made you either in or out and if you didn't get the overall secret cues you were out.  But the orchestra was open, the sheet music existed for anyone to play, they could practice as an orchestra separate knowing that their part would fit if they learned the notes and timing and then as long as they could follow the conductor and had a few rehearsals they could play the piece as as a group and it sounded find.

i will be honest that i still have no idea how one hears the I IV V chords or how they fit together.  I know exactly the theory of them in every key as I've read books and made myself memorize them but hearing them is just a guessing game for me.   So im constantly trying to bridge that gap between the way the old time music is written with notes and timing and the way it is played with a sort of feel for the song and the other players in the group.   Going to a group and trying to join in is again like that whole hard like a root canal kind of thing; it's very hard and so frustrating and so embarrassing and so not fun that it's not an experience I derive joy from.  Practicing my banjo over and over on hard to make transitions and progressions is an absolute joy to me.   I truly want to get better at playing because I enjoy the practice and the music.

i attended a north Texas bluegrass group who meet in my town for a jam session every two weeks at the rec place.   I came twice with my banjo.  I arrived early and there were no introductions.  The group all knew each other and pulled their instruments out, tuned up and startted with songs I had no idea what they were, how I might join in or what was being played.  There was no sheet music, no song list, I had no clue how they chose songs, they moved from person to person so fast and with such speed and obvious understanding of the songs and ability that there wasn't a place to even start let alone figure out what to do.   That wasn't fun and wasn't an environment for learning.   Even the listening was so fast and so advanced with the bass, banjos, guitars, mandolin, and even a percussionist with spoons and clicky sticks.l that I couldn't tell what one might do to join in.   It's advertised as a jam session in the local parks and rec documentation.   This isn't a condemnation on that experience although it was frustrating.   It's just that I realized that that style of playing definitely wasn't what I ascribed to do with music.   

 

sorry for this rant.   There just has to be a way to connect being able to study notes and composition with playing the banjo regardless of style.   I don't have any desire to become a professional musician and my observations are not a condemnation of old time music or bluegrass or any playing ability.  I just mistakenly assumed that banjo was like piano or piccolo wher one had sheet music for "twinkle twinkle little star" and plinked out the notes one by one and they eventually sounded to an outsider like the nursery rhyme.  Now that I'm in the thick of it I'm still trying to bridge the gap.

Texasbanjo - Posted - 09/23/2025:  08:25:10

I understand how you feel. I've been there, done that. Don't let your first time at a jam discourage you. What you saw was a normal jam with people who probably are used to playing with each other and sitting around in a circle calling out a tune and giving everyone who wants a break, a chance to take one. Normal goings on.

Now, how do you break into that group? Go around, ask questions, get acquainted. Let people know you're a beginner who's trying to learn to play with others. If you find some of them who are helpful, latch onto them and let them help you. They can call out the name and key of the song being played, may even call out the chords so you can have an idea what's happening. Don't expect to understand what's going on right away. That may take some time.

I had a guitar picker show me some basic guitar chord fingerings; i.e., G, C, D, A. E, and told me when the rhythm guitar picker changed chords, you do, too. Eventually you'll begin to "feel" a chord change, then you'll be able to get the change right most of the time end eventually, you'll just know what chord is coming up. Again, doesn't happen quickly, but stay with it long enough and it will happen.

cottontop - Posted - 09/23/2025:  08:32:57

I saw George Benson, one of the greatest jazz guitarists of all time at Ruth Ekerd Hall in Clearwater, Florida a few years ago. For some songs he had a cheap nine dollar music stand in front of him with some kind of sheet music or lyrics or something on the stand. I couldn't believe it.
Joe

Charlie Campbell - Posted - 09/23/2025:  08:59:35

@jsinjin There is another Bluegrass jam that meets monthly in Grapevine that you may find helpful. It’s the Southwest Bluegrass Club, they meet in the Methodist Church on Church St. Normally it’s the 2nd Saturday of the month, but October will be the first Saturday, Oct 4, 11 - 3. They have a separate room for “Intro to jamming”, for players getting started on an instrument or just starting to jam. I am confident you will be welcomed to the club jam when you arrive and welcomed in the intro jam as well. Many people there use tab and chord/lyrics on paper and electronic devices, although I suspect few use sheet music. Tell the folks at the welcome table you’re new and they will be happy to help you. Anyone can attend, it’s free.

Sunrise Lee - Posted - 09/23/2025:  09:27:11

jsinjin, I have enjoyed your posts as you have a rather atypical approach to music and your instrument. I don't have a lot to add that hasn't been discussed but I did want to say that between playing both sheet music (tab) on banjo in an orchestral setting and jamming with a group of friends the magic and joy happen because of the musical interaction with other people. I can probably safely say that everyone here can relate to how you felt going to the bluegrass jam session that you have written about. There are people out there at your level that want to play and you can have a good time doing it within the right environment.

In case you didn't know there is a difference, in my experience, between bluegrass jams and old time jams. In bluegrass jams someone will call a song, and folks take individual breaks going around the circle. In old time generally the instruments play together and the fiddle takes the lead. These jams can be a lot less pressure and a good way to start playing the chords behind the melody. Mostly old time will be clawhammer and bluegrass will be three finger, though there are other old time styles. The folks that I have played with do not mind if I play three finger in the old time jam and vise versa.

I know you have stated that you are not interested in playing with other folks. I just wanted say please keep an open mind on this and don't let one specific event turn you off. It does get easier and is an amazing part of music in general. Good luck out there and glad to see you are progressing!

pinenut - Posted - 09/23/2025:  14:05:39

quote:

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Originally posted by jsinjin

quote:

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Originally posted by Old Hickory

quote:

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Originally posted by jsinjin

 

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There just has to be a way to connect being able to study notes and composition with playing the banjo regardless of style.   I just mistakenly assumed that banjo was like piano or piccolo where one had sheet music for "twinkle twinkle little star" and plinked out the notes one by one and they eventually sounded to an outsider like the nursery rhyme.  Now that I'm in the thick of it I'm still trying to bridge the gap.

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John, 

Has anyone mentioned straight 'C' tuning (gCGBD).  Classic banjo guys extoll this on the regular (most of them read music). 

There is a ton of sheet music (everytune) and old method books available, and it's written in musical notation for banjo.  

The approach is more in-line with your descriptions and the play style is similar.  It might be a good fit.  

Banjo Method: C Tuning - Concert Style   amazon.com/Banjo-Method-Tuning...513462784

banjohangout.org/topic/405026  archive.org/details/@joel_hooks

Edited by - pinenut on 09/23/2025 14:21:48

Old Hickory - Posted - 09/23/2025:  20:50:41

quote:

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Originally posted by jsinjin

There just has to be a way to connect being able to study notes and composition with playing the banjo regardless of style.  

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My initial reaction is to want to disagree.

That's because I believe in clawhammer banjo chords are more important than individual notes. And in clawhammer, just as in finger-picked guitar and three-finger banjo, the style of music -- its mode of playing and method of study -- require the learning and memorization of shapes and actions with the fretting hand and picking or stroking technique with the attacking hand. That's why the music for these styles of playing these instruments is written in tablature rather than standard notation. Tablature conveys more of the information you actually need in order to play the piece of music on a particular stringed instrument on which the locations of the notes on which strings and the method by which you sound the strings is every bit as important, if not more important, than the notes themselves.

That was my initial reaction.

But I'm also aware of the previously linked Bradbury "Concert Style" system from the late 19th to early 20th century that wrote banjo music in standard notation! (EXACTLY what you're asking for)  incorporating information on fingering.

I really believe you should look into it.

I think it's not being clawhammer will be a non-issue, since you didn't set out to be a clawhammer player in the first place. I believe it teaches music in the "classic banjo" style, in which you'll find the pieces much more melodic and easy to hear. The folks here on the Hangout who play this style can probably hook you up with music for additional pieces once you're ready for them.

I think the Bradbury method is tailor-made for someone who would  enjoy self-learning banjo through a method based on actual notes. I don't think your clawhammer work to-date will have gone to waste. You've learned to fret notes and to hit the strings you want. That's transferable. But you may need to learn to up-pick with your fingers. I believe this style can be played bare-fingered. And open-back is fine.

The style and the pieces won't fit into bluegrass or old-time jams, but you don't want to play with others anyway.

Good luck.

banjomobob - Posted - 09/23/2025:  21:51:08

A typical way to connect what’s on the page to how you execute it on the instrument is to use your ears.

With your amusia, you’re facing a whole set of challenges not many of us have any experience with. I’m glad you’ve found the joy of playing.

ALCO - Posted - 09/23/2025:  21:58:05

John,

The following list, is what I see as the key elements that you have repeated throughout your several posts:

Your amusia diagnosis
Your desire to understand music theory
Your love of complicated patterns
Your need to compile and analyse data
Your emotional investment in the banjo

Without going into any great detail, I respectfully suggest that all of those elements and the problems that you are having, would most likely be best addressed, by your looking at the Classic Banjo website and watching the videos that explain what classic banjo is and how to learn it and also watching a number of the videos from members of the forum, so that you can hear it and see how it is played.

Unless you find the sound of this style of playing so objectionable, I am absolutely sure that you would connect with it to a greater extent than you current have in your banjo journey.

Please try it!

ALCO - Posted - 09/24/2025:  06:21:04

quote:

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Originally posted by ALCO

 

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classic-banjo.ning.com/

Edited by - ALCO on 09/24/2025 06:23:32

Joel Hooks - Posted - 09/24/2025:  06:37:00

The OP has made it very clear that they are not interested in what we now call "classic banjo". Despite the seemingly endless amount of music and learning materials (scales, exercises, etc.) the OP has stated in the past that this is not for them.

ALCO - Posted - 09/24/2025:  11:03:31

John,



As well as the factors repeatedly raised in your previous posts, the suggestion to look into classic banjo, was also in response to the comment in this post, "There just has to be a way to connect being able to study notes and composition with playing the banjo regardless of style." The established, progressive courses of study, that are freely available, would certainly provide all of the mental stimulation that you require to make your banjo playing enjoyable and would give you the opportunity to learn to read notation, as well as continuing to use tablature. So, rather than abandoning what you have already learned, you could intergrate that into a practice regime, that encompasses both banjo and guitar techniques for the right hand, which in itself would open up the vast repertory of music categorised as 'minstrel banjo', that can be accessed here minstrelbanjo.ning.com/

Edited by - ALCO on 09/24/2025 11:06:42

banjoboyd - Posted - 09/25/2025:  14:59:12

As I recall (and John can correct me on this), the hang-up seems to be that he is already "invested" in clawhammer technique and using tab. Of course, I don't agree with that assessment at all; playing music involves many different skills, and there aren't really sunk costs. 

jsinjin - Posted - 09/27/2025:  11:09:25

I attended an event at university of north Texas this morning with stringed instruments. Violins, cellos m, bass and whatever all of the instruments between ones were. It was all amateur musicians working on different songs together as a group and then time with the conductor. They all had the music and evidently practiced with it a lot at home then came in and worked in groups and practiced. This type of work and interaction made so much more sense and seemed so much more comfortable and understandable to me. Everyone had the same pages and could take the same notes and work on the songs independently. I wonder as I listened and watched this group if maybe I should have chosen a violin or cello. The cello is a big bigger than the banjo but the violin is much smaller and certainly portable enough for a campfire.

Not the fiddle (although the instruments are probably identical or super super similar). I mean the classical violin and music and notation. I always assumed all music was like beginner piano with scales and exercises and learning each piece and once you learned the “code” you could just execute whatever was on the paper. I didn’t care much about what came out of the instrument, just getting better at reading and transcribing. Working with other people in jams and the guessing game of jams gives me anxiety and frustrates me a lot making the music not much fun. I do love my instrument but this sort of reminds me of the difference between someone wanting to fish or learn everything about marine biology. I was hoping that fishing would start with marine biology just as I was hoping that music would start with basic music theory, scales and reading music. It’s not and I admit that the battles and my war with this are just about lost. I definitely never had a goal of performance music, becoming a musician or being part of a musical tradition.

I worked as a post doc under a nobel laureate who stated many times the quote by Wolfgang Pauli, “it is unwise to seek prominence in a field whose routine chores you do not enjoy”. Which I believe means, if you don’t like the repeat details, don’t try to develop a deep understanding of the subject. I am starting to see that the repeat routine chores in clawhammer banjo are less practicing alone which I do love and more practicing with groups and picking things up ad hoc as they come to you without a core curriculum. It’s an interesting realization about why I was so frustrated.

ALCO - Posted - 09/27/2025:  14:08:13

So, change what you are doing and stop trying to play clawhammer!! Read what I suggested in my last two replies, try it and then tell us whether it isn't right for you, or that it makes sense and meets your particular requirements.

chuckv97 - Posted - 09/28/2025:  21:27:35

John, leave the jam thing alone for a while,, they’re obviously too far advanced for you. Get a method book for the style you’d like to learn,, you like reading notes so go for the Bradbury book,, page by page,, enjoy the journey. By the time you finish that book your ear will be in better shape musically,, you will recognize intervals and chords somewhat.

To just jump into an advanced jam is , like you say, frustrating. Baby steps - one page at a time. You’ll love it.

p.s.  There are lots of YouTube teaching videos pertaining to ear training ,, give'em a try, if you like

Edited by - chuckv97 on 09/28/2025 21:29:27

250gibson - Posted - 09/29/2025:  06:27:44

quote:

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Originally posted by chuckv97

John, leave the jam thing alone for a while,, they’re obviously too far advanced for you. Get a method book for the style you’d like to learn,, you like reading notes so go for the Bradbury book,, page by page,, enjoy the journey. By the time you finish that book your ear will be in better shape musically,, you will recognize intervals and chords somewhat.

To just jump into an advanced jam is , like you say, frustrating. Baby steps - one page at a time. You’ll love it.

p.s.  There are lots of YouTube teaching videos pertaining to ear training ,, give'em a try, if you like

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Also, to add to this post. Joining a group, (band, ensemble, or whatever you want to call it) that plays from sheet music with a conductor; would be just as intimating, frustrating, un-enjoyable to a new player as a jam. A "sheet music" band may even be more unforgiving and unaccepting then a bluegrass/old time jam. Mistakes are way more noticeable. 

banjoboyd - Posted - 09/30/2025:  09:44:03

quote:

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Originally posted by jsinjin

I attended an event at university of north Texas this morning with stringed instruments. Violins, cellos m, bass and whatever all of the instruments between ones were. It was all amateur musicians working on different songs together as a group and then time with the conductor. They all had the music and evidently practiced with it a lot at home then came in and worked in groups and practiced. This type of work and interaction made so much more sense and seemed so much more comfortable and understandable to me. Everyone had the same pages and could take the same notes and work on the songs independently. I wonder as I listened and watched this group if maybe I should have chosen a violin or cello. The cello is a big bigger than the banjo but the violin is much smaller and certainly portable enough for a campfire.



Not the fiddle (although the instruments are probably identical or super super similar). I mean the classical violin and music and notation. I always assumed all music was like beginner piano with scales and exercises and learning each piece and once you learned the “code” you could just execute whatever was on the paper. I didn’t care much about what came out of the instrument, just getting better at reading and transcribing. Working with other people in jams and the guessing game of jams gives me anxiety and frustrates me a lot making the music not much fun. I do love my instrument but this sort of reminds me of the difference between someone wanting to fish or learn everything about marine biology. I was hoping that fishing would start with marine biology just as I was hoping that music would start with basic music theory, scales and reading music. It’s not and I admit that the battles and my war with this are just about lost. I definitely never had a goal of performance music, becoming a musician or being part of a musical tradition.



I worked as a post doc under a nobel laureate who stated many times the quote by Wolfgang Pauli, “it is unwise to seek prominence in a field whose routine chores you do not enjoy”. Which I believe means, if you don’t like the repeat details, don’t try to develop a deep understanding of the subject. I am starting to see that the repeat routine chores in clawhammer banjo are less practicing alone which I do love and more practicing with groups and picking things up ad hoc as they come to you without a core curriculum. It’s an interesting realization about why I was so frustrated.

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Don't get the wrong idea though; just because people are using sheet music and have practiced their parts at home doesn't mean they aren't listening closely to one another and reacting to the conductor. Sheet music is like using a map while driving. It tells you where to go, but it doesn't drive the car for you. And it doesn't matter whether you study the map before leaving or only pull it out once you're lost. The end goal -- driving from point A to point B in a safe and timely manner -- remains exactly the same. 

It's great to enjoy chores, but chores are generally understood to be necessary and productive work of some sort. You can certainly enjoy sweeping the floor, but the activity of floor sweeping ultimately exists to have clean floors. You can sweep for its own sake (e.g., the floor is already perfectly clean), but then it transforms from a chore into a ritual (or a neurosis, or a way to kill time, or some combination of the above).

banjoboyd - Posted - 09/30/2025:  09:49:40

quote:

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Originally posted by 250gibson

quote:

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Originally posted by chuckv97

John, leave the jam thing alone for a while,, they’re obviously too far advanced for you. Get a method book for the style you’d like to learn,, you like reading notes so go for the Bradbury book,, page by page,, enjoy the journey. By the time you finish that book your ear will be in better shape musically,, you will recognize intervals and chords somewhat.

To just jump into an advanced jam is , like you say, frustrating. Baby steps - one page at a time. You’ll love it.

p.s.  There are lots of YouTube teaching videos pertaining to ear training ,, give'em a try, if you like

---

Also, to add to this post. Joining a group, (band, ensemble, or whatever you want to call it) that plays from sheet music with a conductor; would be just as intimating, frustrating, un-enjoyable to a new player as a jam. A "sheet music" band may even be more unforgiving and unaccepting then a bluegrass/old time jam. Mistakes are way more noticeable. 

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Yes, even in an amateur group, there is plenty of pressure. It's a team effort. Everyone is counting on you to play your part correctly -- and there is one right way to play it! 

jsinjin - Posted - 09/30/2025:  10:18:07

I think I’m over the awe and concern! I’ve always gotten up early and done a workout with a group and after we have post workout coffee I’ve been playing with and without my music tablature. I’ve shared with the guys a couple of songs but I think for them it’s like listening to an elementary school recital. There isn’t much style or ability to the music and it sounds like I’m hunting and pecking to find each note. I picture that’s what any sort of playing I would be doing with a jam session would be; trying to hunt and find the notes and giving up for large sections of the songs while hoping the song comes back to a part I can restart from. I truly treat this as meditation for myself and that’s a solo activity just like meditating or contemplating. I enjoy that part more than anything else. I like the way the practice just lets me focus. So regardless of the style I think I just prefer to hunt and peck and try to memorize the songs alone. I find that most musicians are experts and I am not just a beginner, I’m a beginner who really doesn’t enjoy trying to play with others. I think there are probably a few others out there like that for whom practice is just a solo activity. I do wish there was more sheet music for banjo because that feels more “normal” than the tablature and guess the chord work and I’ll look at classical banjo. I wouldn’t say that practicing sweeping is an activity I want to get better at. But I do practice single person crew rowing. I’ll never compete but I’ve sent videos to a rowing coach for critique and I’ve worn a black pair of Lycra tights and a shirt with white dots on it to send video to a club to analyze my form. I would never ever enter a race but the pursuit of going more streamlined, better form, faster and more efficient is something I love to do session after session. It’s the same thing with trying to hit each string cleanly and with the intended loudness. I love that kind of incremental pursuit. I get no joy out of working with others in these activities just as I wouldn’t enjoy a group reading session of a good book. But I am starting to appreciate the talent and incredible work that people put in to play together. I think it’s expertise on a extremely high level and should be praised and encouraged for all those who enjoy it.

banjoboyd - Posted - 09/30/2025:  16:25:51

quote:

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Originally posted by jsinjin

I think there are probably a few others out there like that for whom practice is just a solo activity. I do wish there was more sheet music for banjo because that feels more “normal” than the tablature and guess the chord work and I’ll look at classical banjo. 

I would never ever enter a race but the pursuit of going more streamlined, better form, faster and more efficient is something I love to do session after session. It’s the same thing with trying to hit each string cleanly and with the intended loudness. I love that kind of incremental pursuit. I get no joy out of working with others in these activities just as I wouldn’t enjoy a group reading session of a good book. 

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John, there's more sheet music for banjo than anyone could get to in one lifetime. Most of it just happens to have been published 100-150 years ago. The beauty of classic (not classical) banjo is that once you can read notation somewhat well and know where the notes lie on the fingerboard, you can more or less spontaneously play hundreds of pieces. And most of them are complete, self-contained musical works that are meant to be played solo. But you gotta take the leap and start the initially slow process of working through a method book.



As I've expressed before, as long as you are making incremental progress, whatever you're doing is probably okay, and you don't need to play with other people if you don't want to. But playing music is really not like rowing, where you are trying to optimize your ability to perform a single, highly specific task. Once you are able to "hit each string cleanly and with the intended loudness," it's time to move on to something else. There isn't further optimization to be gained there. 

ALCO - Posted - 09/30/2025:  23:30:27

John, whilst others have recommended the 'Modern Method For The Banjo' by Frank C Bradbury, I suggest that you also have a look at 'Ellis' Advanced School For The Banjo & Zither-Banjo' by Herbert J Ellis'. Both tutors provide all that is required to begin to understand how to read the notation and apply it to the banjo, but specifically, the Ellis book has twelve elementary lessons for beginners, that will allow you to concentrate on the basic fingering of scales and arpeggios, in a logical and progressive manner, before you are introduced to any tunes. Of course, it is perfectly acceptable to use any, or all of the various tutors, which you will find here classic-banjo.ning.com/page/tutor-books
I do hope that you feel more comfortable with this approach to playing your banjo.