prince_casual - Posted - 02/15/2025:  11:22:18

I discovered this archived thread - banjohangout.org/archive/381148 - while searching for some tips for playing fiddle accompaniment in a two finger or three finger style with picks. Specifically, a style that is more rhythmic and driving than melodic; and without a lot of licks. Riley Calcagno nails it: youtube.com/watch?v=EFhwkUctZVo. Aaron Tacke nails it: youtube.com/watch?v=Yd1TFLmd10Q.



I have been listening to The Onlies and Steam Machine recordings all day trying to figure it out! Can some of the more experienced players here help me break down what they are doing to get that sound?



Many thanks.

Bill Rogers - Posted - 02/15/2025:  11:50:40

And, preceding Calcagno and Tacke by decades, Mike Seeger:

youtube.com/watch?v=BqiubQR_W-w

Here's Hard Drive (Aaaron Tacke, banjo) replicating that recording 60+ years later:

youtube.com/watch?v=Xa2IbKGyNXs

It's a proto-bluegrass style and works well with driving breakdown fiddling.

Edited by - Bill Rogers on 02/15/2025 12:00:19

Bill Rogers - Posted - 02/15/2025:  13:04:33

I missed the obvious one: Earl Scruggs with Paul Warren. Not bluegrassy; Warren was an old-time fiddler much more than a hot bluegrass player and the duets with Earl are definitely in that pre-bluegrass style.

isaacmccarthy - Posted - 02/15/2025:  15:58:26

Hey! I almost exclusively play old-time three finger. I'm pretty sure I've posted on threads before about this, so there may be more info on my page. I’m from a neck of West Virginia where the Bluegrass and old time traditions have merged, so the scenes have a lot of overlap. As such, I play in both our bluegrass and old-time jams, but didn’t want to learn Clawhammer (I’ve always been more attracted to the actual physical method of rolling vs frailing). I stuck to the picks and don’t plan to change.



My overall observations:



if you want to get good at playing with three picks, learn at least some bluegrass. This is not because Bluegrass is cool (it is), but Bluegrass is functional. It will show you how to utilize three finger banjo effectively.



Bright, bluegrass and tones on the banjo are not very effective. Go for a warmer sound, one that mirrors a clawhammer’s style. My setup (nechville arch top) has been tailored to this, and it's a big reason some three finger players can be not welcomed-they're too loud and brassy.



I use a lot of the middle of the neck (frets 5 to 10) to hit Melody notes while rolling. Learning some basic melodic style will give you fluency to execute the intricacies of fiddle melodies. 



When playing, try to be able to play the melody, and oscillate between executing the melody note for note and rolling. The closer you can do the melody while still keeping the roll - not bill Kieth style but more fleck/vestal/pikelney, The more options you will have. 

Playing with a metronome to improve your Fundamental rolling consistency is key. A lot of these old-time tunes are crooked and may require you to roll beyond a square form.



These are just some preliminary thoughts of mine. Go check out Frank Evans on Sami Braman’s album Riveter. Great example of three finger being used in a very neo traditional context.

Edited by - isaacmccarthy on 02/15/2025 16:04:25

Bob Buckingham - Posted - 02/16/2025:  06:09:29

I was called to do a recording session with a fiddler I knew. He was playing Flannery's Dream but was not playing it the same way each time. Instead using clawhammer I played three finger to give him room for his explorations. Interestingly enough that recording got picked to be on a Crooked Road anthology CD.

janolov - Posted - 02/16/2025:  07:43:38

Don't forget the Earl Scruggs and Fiddling Arthur Smith session from 1957: youtu.be/zBPr2eRqlYI

RG - Posted - 02/18/2025:  22:18:21

quote:

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Originally posted by janolov

Don't forget the Earl Scruggs and Fiddling Arthur Smith session from 1957: youtu.be/zBPr2eRqlYI

---

It really doesn't get much more old-time than this...

prince_casual - Posted - 02/19/2025:  07:48:43

The Earl/Paul and Earl/Arthur examples are excellent! Thanks for sharing those. It is illuminating to discover the close origins of bluegrass and old time. They really are shades of gray more so than black and white. Here is another classic banjo and fiddle duo that I love: folkways.si.edu/doc-watson-and...r-carlton



Isaac - Thank you for your suggestions. I spent a year learning the basics leading towards bluegrass and now play mostly two finger style songs using three fingers. The thumb and middle do most of the work and the index fills in when it makes sense based on the string I played before hand - breaking all the "rules". For example, I almost always play the second string with my index finger. If the next string to be played is the third I will do so with my index. But if the third string follows the fourth string then I play it with my thumb. The tone is different between thumb and index so I utilize that difference as a tool to create dynamics. But more so than anything else, the principle reason for playing this way is comfort. My palm and fingers are long and narrow. Playing with thumb and middle simply feels most comfortable to me because they can stay elongated whereas my index has to curl a decent bit to hit most strings. Starting in bluegrass, as you suggested, has enabled all three fingers to work together which opens up so many doors to create the sound you want to create. I sometimes wear picks and sometimes I don't and I play an open back with a tone ring. Breaking more "rules"! Another way to get the warm tone you mention is to move your right hand up towards the neck. My banjo has a scooped neck so I sometimes plant right at the edge of the rim and pick in that scooped area. Not having your fingers planted on the head makes a huge difference in tone. I have to be careful though because it is easy to get a lot of buzzing when I play this way.



Bob - To your point, it is interesting when the banjo doesn't follow the melody note for note. Another common theme I found in posts on this site regarding this topic is for each instrument to give each other some space and to form layers as opposed to all trying to exist on the same plane. By the way, I noticed you are in Greer. I grew up in Greer; small world. I left in 2007 to attend Clemson and still come back from time to time to visit family. 



Having read many other posts on this website around the time of starting this thread, I found a common idea that differentiates old time is reinforcing the downbeat. Do that and dancing is irresistible. That's why I am so drawn to this music. 



This discussion, and reading many others on this site, have shown me that it is important to not shun one genre in favor of another. That many lessons in bluegrass playing are applicable to playing more than just bluegrass. This may seem obvious to others, but for me it is a revelation. I have only been at this for a little over a year now.

BobTheGambler - Posted - 02/19/2025:  07:51:40

Most of the banjo playing on old time 78s from the '20 and '30s is up-picking backup, more often chordal rather than melodic. I feel like Leake County Revelers are a great example, but there's countless groups to check out.

isaacmccarthy - Posted - 02/19/2025:  12:12:43

quote:

---

Originally posted by prince_casual

Isaac - Thank you for your suggestions. I spent a year learning the basics leading towards bluegrass and now play mostly two finger style songs using three fingers. The thumb and middle do most of the work and the index fills in when it makes sense based on the string I played before hand - breaking all the "rules". 

---

You're the first person I've heard talk about this-I do the same. Often, I may switch between what is functionally a "two finger" melody to a three-note roll when appropriate. You can see this in action here on a tune I have written. Having this as a "mode" to switch in is what really enables me to do a "clawhammer impersonation" at times. This lets me fit in to the style. With regards to your conversation about tone, I agree that there are different timbres on each finger and based on where you play on the banjo. For people who do plant their fingers (which I recommend for bluegrass players), moving up toward the neck vs. back to the bridge will give you a wide array of tone colors to use.

isaacmccarthy - Posted - 02/19/2025:  12:14:24

quote:

---

Originally posted by BobTheGambler

Most of the banjo playing on old time 78s from the '20 and '30s is up-picking backup, more often chordal rather than melodic. I feel like Leake County Revelers are a great example, but there's countless groups to check out.

---

Any more suggestions for groups? This is something I'd love to check out-not familiar with this band or where to start looking.

isaacmccarthy - Posted - 02/19/2025:  12:24:26

Oh! Forgot something-when playing with picks, I often Spike my 5th string to A to play in D. This gives a much less "Bluegrassy" sound to the drive on the banjo but still allows for use of G tuning material. Rolling on the 5th, 1st, and 2nd string (fretted at 3) will give a really hypnotic and driving groove for D tunes that is difficult to get out of standard G tuning.

writerrad - Posted - 02/19/2025:  14:56:45

While Mike is today best known as one of the main postwar proponents of old time music and an expert in old time banjo.  Bluegrass banjo was a real major love in his life that he would let you know if you got to know him.   He told me once that the big regret in his life is that he knew he just did not have the chops to be a top flight working bluegrass banjoist in the 50s, and would have done that.  He told me at first playing old time he had a hard time getting into picking without picks and there were some songs I saw him play in this century that he two-finger picked and just didnt feel he could pick it right without a metal fingerpick on the finger he was not picking with.   He had a deep affection and respect for bluegrass banjo playing and has a close personal relationship with Bluegras icons like like Ralph Stanley.

He was a major figure especially in the late 50s and early 60s of encouraging people outside the South to value and listen and learn to play Bluegrasss.   

There i s such a big hole int he whole damned universe since he passed away.   Folks do not know them some Michael should get them. His last years of life when he was suffering from several different bouts with several cancers, were an immense struggle on his part to pass on what he had the opportunity to learn from both old time and bluegrass banjoists to new generations.  Now that he has been gone a little while, folks forget thim.  Thanks for raising it. 

writerrad - Posted - 02/19/2025:  15:00:24

quote:

---

Originally posted by Bill Rogers

I missed the obvious one: Earl Scruggs with Paul Warren. Not bluegrassy; Warren was an old-time fiddler much more than a hot bluegrass player and the duets with Earl are definitely in that pre-bluegrass style.

---

Paul was also a banjoist.  If you have the Flat and Scruggs shows that you can download from YouTube, and on some of the live album, there are several frailing banjo pieces Paul plays borrowing Earl banjo.   He was pretty good.

Edited by - writerrad on 02/19/2025 15:01:25

writerrad - Posted - 02/19/2025:  15:12:53

Three finger banjo playing including the variant of that where some folks played with 4 fingers, and some like Gus Cannon threw in the Pinkie for tremolos was the most widespread and popular form of banjo playing in the English speaking world in the era that old time banjo was extant.  A lot of stupidities that erase the two finger playing and the three finger playing ignores the fact that even in our recordings of old time musicians from the 1920s and 1930s,  two finger and three finger picking was extremely widespread.

My own research of African American banjoists suggests that while down picking may have originated with African instrument playing, pre bluegrass and Black old time banjo playing with three finger picking and more fingers at time was very prevelent and seems to be prevalent from musicians we know of today like Gus Cannon,  Murph Gribble, and others.  There is an interview with Gus Cannon a folk music enthusiast in Memphis did in 1967 where Cannon explained he tried using finger picks at one point in his career but he played so hard that he broke them all!

Picks of the type that some use today and became widely used through bluegrass were not around or were not available until the post war period as far as I know and were apparently expensive until postwar days.  The war seems to be the dividing line on the picks.   On the other hand from the early days of banjo playing in the mid 19th century, down picking banjo players routinely used banjo thimbles, some of which would make the finger picks bluegrass players use today seem delicate and weak.  I have heard testimony in interviews with frailing players Black and white from the South that many used banjo thimbles across the 20s and 30s and 40s, and only stopped when they were no longer available in the 60s or 70s.

If you have to use your nose or a sledge hammer to get the sound you like, let alone picks, that is the old time way!

Edited by - writerrad on 02/19/2025 15:14:26

writerrad - Posted - 02/19/2025:  15:21:34

quote:

---

Originally posted by BobTheGambler

Most of the banjo playing on old time 78s from the '20 and '30s is up-picking backup, more often chordal rather than melodic. I feel like Leake County Revelers are a great example, but there's countless groups to check out.

---

That is certainly true,  There is  a fetischism of down picking banjo that seems to be growing over the years in the old time music milieu that is anti historical.  Here in Florida, the state old time music championships exclude anyone finger picking the banjo in any way either  in solo composition or fiddle and banjo duos which i once worked to be in, or in bands!!!

That is quite different from what you hear if you listen to a variety of both white and black old time players on records from the 1920s and 1930s.

As an old time banjoist myself, I still look at the duets between Paul Warren and Earl that you find among the live albums and in the video of the F & S show as instructive in how to play banjo behind a fiddle in the old time way.

writerrad - Posted - 02/19/2025:  15:31:05

It is very unfortunate that today most people who are taught old time banjo are taught by being taught to play the melody of fiddle tunes, a task no old time banjoist is going to actually do in any playing situation with a fiddle who is worth her or his salt.  I started playing guitar in 1960s in folk, old time, bluegrass and blues situations, so  when I finally picked up the banjo about 25 years ago,  I could apply what I learned backing fiddlers on guitar to the banjo.  Watson's playing with his father in low Gaither has already been pointed to, as well as the playing that Earl did behind Paul Warren, especially in their banjo and fiddle duos without the rest of the band

I would also point to the styling of  Murph Gribble of the Gribble Lusk and York band from Tennessee that Stu Jamieson and Margaret Mayo recorded in the 1940s.   There is a lot of interchange in that approach of lead between banjo and fiddle.  Another great example is the playing of Marion Underwood behind the fidding of Jim Booker Jr.  in the first recordings of Taylor's Kentucky Boys Gray Eagle  and Forked Deer recorded by Gennett Records in 1927.  Underwood played a strong 3 finger style on those fiddle tunes and the lead goes back and forth between Underwood and Booker.   

writerrad - Posted - 02/19/2025:  15:37:17

Bluegrassers and the bluegrass banjo playing and teaching industry really developed in a collective an scientific way what a person could do on a five string to music similar to what old time fiddling is and old time fiddling.   However,  the melodic approach to bluegrass and other forms of banjo has really offered some pearls to fingiring out how to play old time,  A few months ago inquiring about this the great Bob Buckingham who has graced us here with his presence recommened a book called "The Complete Tune Playing Toolkit for 5-string banjo" which provides a comprehensive approach to 3 finger picking that can be well applied to old time as well as bluegrass.  It sits on my music stand, thanks Bob!

hweinberg - Posted - 02/19/2025:  19:27:01

Pete Peterson plays 3-finger banjo for Walt's and Claire's fiddling in the Orpheum Supertones. Pete is a Charlie Poole style player and owns one of Charlie Poole's banjos. 

BobTheGambler - Posted - 02/19/2025:  20:59:22

quote:

---

Originally posted by isaacmccarthy

quote:

---

Originally posted by BobTheGambler

Most of the banjo playing on old time 78s from the '20 and '30s is up-picking backup, more often chordal rather than melodic. I feel like Leake County Revelers are a great example, but there's countless groups to check out.

---

Any more suggestions for groups? This is something I'd love to check out-not familiar with this band or where to start looking.

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Charlie Poole and the North Carolina Ramblers, Blue Ridge Highballers, Uncle Dave Macon and the Fruit Jar Drinkers, Red Fox Chasers, The Sweet Brothers (Virginia Mountain Boomers), Red Headed Fiddlers, DaCosta Woltz Southern Broadcasters, Dr Humphrey Bate's Possum Hunters, Young Brothers with Homer Davenport.

I could go on and on, but those were some good examples that popped into my mind. There's lots of great up-picking banjo playing from bands that only recorded a few sides.

prince_casual - Posted - 02/20/2025:  04:41:07

Great contributions from Tony and everyone else for that matter. To keep this going, here is some essential listening from a name that hasn't been mentioned yet - Wade Mainer: allensarchiveofearlyoldcountry...ereo.html. This album could as easily be placed in the bluegrass forums as it is here. 

prince_casual - Posted - 02/20/2025:  05:41:04

All of these references are great. I do want to get back to the original intent of this post which is to answer: what it is that defines this style of playing? Here is what I have come up with from listening to artists old and new and have gleaned from other posts on the forum:

1. Playing the downbeat and maintaining a clear 3/4 or 4/4 rhythm
2. Building rhythm by focusing less on every single melody note and more on looping patterns that support the melody without licks
3. Creating patterns using bum-ditty, bumpa-ditty, pinches, and brushes.
4. Achieving patterns by whatever means preferred: two finger, three finger, up pick, clawhammer, etc.
5. Utilizing a variety of tunings and modes
6. No breaks...but you do still have times in which the instruments take turns between - lead and backup - or put another way between - a clearly defined melody and a less defined melody. Some have referred to this as "creating space".
7. Voices are instruments. They are equally a part of item number 6 and should be given space in the melody-rhythm balance.
8. Resonator or no resonator. Picks or no picks. It doesn't matter.
9. ???

Looking forward to any additions or refutations to my list as either will help me learn. My appreciation for this music grows the more I discover its qualities.

earlstanleycrowe - Posted - 02/20/2025:  06:09:33

Would early Foghorn Stringband fit the description? Their banjo player would sometimes play the melody but often he was doing more chordal accompaniment.

BrendanD - Posted - 02/20/2025:  15:27:11

quote:

---

Originally posted by earlstanleycrowe

Would early Foghorn Stringband fit the description? Their banjo player would sometimes play the melody but often he was doing more chordal accompaniment.

---

Yes! Not only would they "fit the description", but I feel that Taylor Grover's banjo playing in the early Foghorn String Band was extremely influential in the renewed popularity of finger-picked banjo in the current generation of young string bands. Taylor was strongly influenced by the playing of Ronnie Poe, the Virginia banjo player in John Ashby's powerhouse band the Free State Ramblers.

craan - Posted - 02/27/2025:  19:34:52

When residing in Ireland and playing in sessions I developed a claw hammer back up style that was quite dynamic sliding in to chords mainly on the fourth and third and second strings using the first and second strings and open third strings as rhythmic punctuation and drones. I mainly used drop thumb patterns with an occasional brush. Since Irish sessions shift keys in medleys I played out of double D tuning with use of the fifth string for D and A tunes. and intermittent selective use of the fifth string and using the first open and fretted for drone and chordal punctuation I could play back up and selected melodic phrases without retuning in D, A, E minor, B minor, G. The style was influenced by the bouzouki backup of the late great Alec Finn but transferred to the 5 string banjo. It seems to me what passes for so-called "proto bluegrass" backup banjo is merely bluegrass Scruggs picking without the blues-derived phrasing and perhaps less resorting to second position up the neck.I do not hear the style of Charlie Parker and Max Woolbright , Snuffy Jenkins or even Obray Ramsey in this 3 finger backup though I do see Jason Romero as Ramsey's heir. Protobluegrass" backup banjo seems to be one more blurring and pushing of oldtime in the direction of bluegrass that is already half way there with double bass plucked backup and purely chordal rythym guitar in many post Highwood bands with none of the bass runs of Riley Puckett and Roy Harvey. Good Clawhammer can be as punchy as three finger proto-neo-Scruggs style.

craan - Posted - 02/27/2025:  20:33:25

My sound samples for backup Clawhammer playing in Irish sessions are locked in cassettes. But here is my model Alec Finn on bouzouki backing fiddle: bouzouki tuning is DD AA dd.



youtu.be/zaiXZ-7uPdA?feature=shared

Edited by - craan on 02/27/2025 20:40:50

gbowder - Posted - 02/28/2025:  05:42:05

Two immediate observations from the two videos you referenced - they're both playing open back banjos, and they're staying down the neck in first position to provide a bassy backup for the fiddler. Riley Calcagno also sounds like he might be in a lower tuning than standard G, but it's early here and I'm still drinking my coffee, so don't quote me on that! :) The way that they're playing can certainly be replicated on a resonator banjo, but the open backs are integral to the sound they're producing. I haven't read this entire thread, so pardon me if I'm repeating what someone else already said.

BlueMountain - Posted - 02/28/2025:  08:03:34

quote:

---

Originally posted by prince_casual

All of these references are great. I do want to get back to the original intent of this post which is to answer: what it is that defines this style of playing? Here is what I have come up with from listening to artists old and new and have gleaned from other posts on the forum:



1. Playing the downbeat and maintaining a clear 3/4 or 4/4 rhythm

2. Building rhythm by focusing less on every single melody note and more on looping patterns that support the melody without licks

3. Creating patterns using bum-ditty, bumpa-ditty, pinches, and brushes.

4. Achieving patterns by whatever means preferred: two finger, three finger, up pick, clawhammer, etc.

5. Utilizing a variety of tunings and modes

6. No breaks...but you do still have times in which the instruments take turns between - lead and backup - or put another way between - a clearly defined melody and a less defined melody. Some have referred to this as "creating space".

7. Voices are instruments. They are equally a part of item number 6 and should be given space in the melody-rhythm balance.

8. Resonator or no resonator. Picks or no picks. It doesn't matter.

9. ???



Looking forward to any additions or refutations to my list as either will help me learn. My appreciation for this music grows the more I discover its qualities.

---

Good answer. I get to play accompanying banjo at a weekly old-time fiddle jam. The players aren't very good and most play from standard notation or tab. My role is to provide the chords and rhythm so it can be heard clearly without complicating matters. I provide the beat. At that level, banjo rolls just confuse people. I play an open back banjo with nylon strings. It will play at 100 decibels, so I have to be careful not to play too loud. I don't try to follow a standard clawhammer form, but it's mostly thumb and downstrokes with my index finger. I generally alternate strings with my thumb. On some songs I also use upstrokes with the pad of my index finger and syncopate alternating thumb, down, and up strokes in a way that pleases me. Is it as much fun as playing banjo rolls and playing melodies? No. But it serves a valuable purpose. It puts the fiddlers first instead of me.

craan - Posted - 02/28/2025:  09:34:17

Just an observation but language is telling, The use of the term "pre-bluegrass" in reference to 3 finger banjo playing implies a predetermined "evolutionary" direction from old-time three finger banjo to Monroe era bluegrass (which originally did not include three finger 5 string banjo--i.e. Stringbean) In other words the prefix infers that Scruggs style has become the vantage point from which one evaluates three finger techniques prior to Scruggs in terms of distance from or proximity to Scruggs style-- that's writing history backwards. Members of NLCR such as Tracy Schwartz and Mike Seeger had considerable bluegrass expertise but in NLCR they deliberately shaped an ensemble form that pulled away from bluegrass and/or that pointed to those elements of bluegrass that derived from the 200 year old fiddle and banjo and ballad heritage. The bluegrass aesthetic was ubiquitous for NLCR who were looking for a different branding. One could also note the major contributions of Ralph Rinzler (a bluegrass mandolinist) and the Friends of Old-Time Music concert series in NYC and Dave Freeman and County Records). The FOTM unique concert series in the 60s taught me that there were Southern sounds that bluegrass lacked or even rejected (with the exception of the Stanley Brothers). The shift in the last 55 years of old time music performance contexts to festival jam sessions, competitions, speed playing divorced from social dancing, and increasingly dominated by bluegrass ensemble orchestrations (purely chordal guitar (no bass runs) and plucked double bass backup) has escalated the blurring of the boundaries between bluegrass and old time and often to the detriment of old-time's distinctiveness. (Bluegrass is significantly formulaic as compared to the anarchy and idiosyncracy of oldtime) Why oldtime ensembles in search of stronger bottom tonality did not look to the Weems String band that featured a bowed cello backing fiddle and two finger banjo picking that sounded as far from bluegrass as one can get? As Tony Thomas has taught us there were many diverse three fingers banjo styles in circulation prior to bluegrass (many of which did not use picks) and one can recognize to what degree a particular three finger technique, fretting phrasing and banjo tuning (e.g. always playing out of open G) is pushing the ensemble sound towards bluegrass as a centalizing force, rather than drawing upon older players like Murph Gribble, Snuffy Jenkins, Obray Ramsey, Doc Boggs, Charlie Poole, Oscar Jenkins, Dave Macon. Perhaps this blurring is inevitable and irreversable but that does not mean we should not recognize it is happening on a level that is more than just individual stylistic preference but rather group think.

writerrad - Posted - 03/15/2025:  14:24:22

quote:Paul was an excelllent clawhammer banjo player.  In some of the live shows and on several segments of the Martha White show, he borrows Earl's Banjo and plays some great down picking.

---

Originally posted by Bill Rogers

I missed the obvious one: Earl Scruggs with Paul Warren. Not bluegrassy; Warren was an old-time fiddler much more than a hot bluegrass player and the duets with Earl are definitely in that pre-bluegrass style.

---

writerrad - Posted - 03/15/2025:  14:37:41

First of all, the New Lost City Ramblers were an old time music group, not a bluegrass group.  The task that they saw themselves with was to replicate the old time music recordings and playings  in the tradition.  This was especially important to them in that era was that most of the recordings that reissue 1920s and 30s and even 40s old time music recordings did not exist in the late 1950s when the band came into being.  There was an ongoing struggle and discussion and definitions of what that was.   Pretty much until Tom Paley moved to Europe and left the band aroun 1964, one of the understandings of this was no Bluegrass was allowed.

That certainly did not mean any of the three members to that point, especially Mike Seeger, did not play  bluegrass.  It was part of other defining agreements of the band especially when Tom Paley was in the band, along with the Tom's agreement to go along with the band not recording the unaccompanied Child Ballads that Tom would have desired to be part of the repertoire.

The band pretty much sought to replicate actual old time music recordings which were then hard to come by and not heard very much except if you were lucky enough to know a collector.  Most of their recordings, especially before Tom moved to Europe sought to emulate and reproduce specific recordings by specific old time bands, singers, or individual artists.    

They pretty much were the banner for introducing old time music with that name to the world of revivalist folk music.     

At the same time, several of them especially Mike Seeger were deeply involved in the world of Bluegrass.   Mike once told me that for all the old time music he played, his initial dream and one he would have followed if he had the chops would have been to be a working Bluegrass 5 string banjo player. 

Tracey Schwartz who came along around 65 to replace Paley came much more from the world of Bluegrass,  Starting in the first post Paley Album, Gone to the Country, which I purchased in 1965 which might have come out in 64, there was always one  or two Bluegrass songs on their albums,  usually with Tracy sing.

writerrad - Posted - 03/15/2025:  15:04:36

When the NLCR was started in the mid 1950s, bluegrass was not that widely spread.  None of the people involved "pulled away" from Bluegrass.  Only Mike had really been involved in Bluegrass at all, mostly as someone who recorded a lot of the Bluegrass players in the DC and Baltimore area.   He made several important recordings of Bluegrass banjoists in the mid 1950s that came out on Folkways that are quite important in gauging how the music developed.

Paley who had played with Woody Guthrie himself when Paley was in high school, really didnt have much interest or involvement in Bluegrass even though he was probably the best musician, especially in the 50s and 60s, of the three or four fo them.  He did not want the band to have anything to do with Bluegrass He came really out of the folk music movement, as did John Cohen.  John was probably best known for having discovered The Reverend Gary Davis and brought him to the attention of the blues and folk music world.  

It is simply ignorant to say they pulled away from Bluegrass.  They came out of the folk music movement, and also saw themselves as propagating more traditional music,  and saw themselves as playing music  as it was in the 1920s and 1930s and perhaps 40s, and not bluegrass.  They had nothing against Bluegrass,  Michael had played in bluegrass bands before the NLCR took off, and was a long time friend of a number of Bluegrass banjoists, especially Ralph Stanley.Michael also recorded several seminal Folkways albums

Bluegrass was not as big or as well known outside the South at the time that they launched the NLCR in 1958, nor was the playing of old time music by revivalists or anyone else outside a few areas. Mic

writerrad - Posted - 03/15/2025:  15:29:32

Finger picking banjo in a variety of forms was widespread at least since the early 19th century. We hadn both the African derived 2-finger style, and the guitar-style, which some people call "classic banjo", which was 3 and 4 finger playing.  Finger styles of all types were widespread long before Bluegrass both in the United States and internationally, especially in the English speaking world. If one is listening to recordings of old time fiddle tunes, or even commercial recordings of old time fiddle tunes from the early 20th century, for example, there are as many 2 finger and classic banjos accompanying them as down picking.



For me it is a matter of individual taste or the rhythm of the particular tune  if I am accompanying a fiddler or playing a fiddle tune on the banjo whether I play 2 finger, 3 finger, or claw hammer.  When I started jamming regularly,,  I forced myself to learn 2 finger and would play each tune called in the jam at least half in 2 finger and half in claw hammer.  I now try to include 3 finger in that,  I would say I usually play more 2 and 3 finger old time style if I am playing with fiddlers than I do claw hammer, just because that is the direction of my banjo playing.  



I played guitar only pretty much from 1962 until I first bought a banjo in 1999. Though I was mostly a flat picker, or a Thumb and strum player, I did get into 2 finger picking behind a fiddler as pretty similar to the way a guitarist backs a fiddler, except having a little more freedom from the bass note runs.

But many many players even in the era of old time music backing fiddle tunes played 3 finger banjo.  Myself, since I play mostly old time,  do find melodic banjo approaches most useful in designing backing of fiddlers.  Knowing the scale and the arpeggios of the scale to provide support to the fiddler is the task.  This is quite different from bluegrass, insofar as in this music you are not taking solos and need to stick closer to the melody.  

But like so many things banjo, listening to what Earl did is useful even for the old time player.   Charlie Poole is pretty useful although he played few fiddle tunes and the influence of what we could call pop-ragtime was an important one for Poole.



I

Edited by - writerrad on 03/15/2025 15:48:32

writerrad - Posted - 03/15/2025:  15:55:47

I also really want people to check out the playing of  Joseph Decosimo who plays in the second video who has some really nice recordings on Bandcamp and some nice stuff up on YouTube.    He's a great banjoist.