lucass - Posted - 02/07/2022:  09:22:41

Hi BHO, I'm currently a clawhammer player and I'd like to expand my style to include some hard-driving 2 or 3 finger backup banjo.



I am particularly drawn to the playing of Creed Birchfield (of the Roan Mountain Hilltoppers) and Ronnie Poe (of John Ashby and The Free State Ramblers). These players seem to focus on driving rhythm first and foremost, and I want to capture some of that in my playing. Both these players lock into the hypnotic fiddle tune groove, which I think most of us would agree is the key element of backing up a fiddle in old time on any instrument.



Ronnie Poe

youtube.com/watch?v=PVjsh8x99K0



Creed Birchfield

youtube.com/watch?v=9TPVFvNFPQ8



Are there any good resources for getting up and running in these styles? I will be strictly backing up a fiddler in an old time setting, I just want some of that drive to switch things up.



My issue seems to be that most 2 finger banjo instruction seems a little "soloist" based, not necessarily focused on driving a fiddler. And, most 3 finger banjo instruction seems to be focused to virtuosic breaks and chopping chords for backup, ala bluegrass, but not necessarily getting in a hypnotic fiddle tune groove.



It's almost like I'm looking for the "Boom-Chick" structure for backup guitar, but for fingerstyle banjo. I don't need one to be able to exactly tell the tune if you were to solo my part, I just need it to keep the fiddler ripping.



Also, I am in no way biased against learning "bluegrass" styles to reach my end goal, I just want to get there in the most direct route to start playing this way with my fiddler as soon as possible.



Any guidance, learning resources or suggestions?

Edited by - lucass on 02/07/2022 12:58:51

Eric A - Posted - 02/07/2022:  09:39:22

Interesting. I eagerly wait to see what people come up with.

Note: Your two examples both go to the same link.

lucass - Posted - 02/07/2022:  09:50:56

Me too! Fixed the link, thanks Eric.

RG - Posted - 02/07/2022:  13:13:44

Current thread here as well as a LOT of others from the past... search the archives and you'll come up with a ton of resources. Also, check out the series of videos Dave Holt did with Wade Mainer, Wade's style is very much a fiddle tune accompaniment style.  Understand that Creed Birchfield played primarily an index lead style, while others played thumb lead.  If you want to see what thumb lead can do in a bluegrass setting, listen to the late great Jackie Phelps play "Roanoke" with Bill Monroe... two finger thumb lead. Lot's of ways to skin the proverbial cat.

Edited by - RG on 02/07/2022 13:20:19

lucass - Posted - 02/07/2022:  13:40:13

@RG, thanks for the response, and I have done quite a bit of searching and not really come up with the helpful resources.

- The thread you linked covers much of the 2 finger "solo accompaniment" feeling learning resources, Rosenbaum and Schroeder books specifically, not really what I'm going for.

-I'm glad you mentioned Wade Mainer, I'd love to find any resources that specifically teach his style. While I've seen the Holt video, and I've read the slight mention of him in Old Time Mountain Banjo, I've never found anything that showcases his style (Index lead, I know) or specifically tabs out a tune.

- I understand that Birchfield played index lead, and again I've never seen any resource that helps understand his style, again no tabs or guidance.

- Jackie Phelps takes an impressive break in a bluegrass setting, but again not really what my post was about.

lucass - Posted - 02/07/2022:  13:47:08

I'm hoping for a deep dive here. If I could compare it to something I know, it would be as if I was fumbling around asking people how to play like Fred Cockerham and I kept getting recommendations for Ken Perlman's Book. That will sort of get you there, but not really. I'm looking for the Leftwich book recommendation, if you get what I'm saying.

Edited by - lucass on 02/07/2022 13:47:35

Bill H - Posted - 02/07/2022:  15:03:03

This is something I am struggling with. I have been working on single string and melodic three finger, and finding and learning the melody is pretty straight forward, but playing behind a fiddle or mandolin, I am stumped with what to do for harmony. As a claw hammer player, I can strum chords all over the neck, but in finger style I have not figured this out.

chip arnold - Posted - 02/08/2022:  06:44:11

Clawhammer is a finger lead 2-finger style. If it can be played in 2-finger index lead style, it can be played with clawhammer style.

Edited by - chip arnold on 02/08/2022 06:53:11

chip arnold - Posted - 02/08/2022:  06:54:46

Thanks to Jan Olov, here's Arnold Watson playing 2-finger index lead with drop thumb. You can pick the same notes with C'hammer.



youtube.com/watch?v=7ZNeRUZB4U0



youtube.com/watch?v=O59ifOOo5ck

Edited by - chip arnold on 02/08/2022 06:56:03

lucass - Posted - 02/08/2022:  07:36:13

Thanks Chip, this playing style makes sense to me and is easier to replicate, since it’s mostly “double thumbed” (note-drone-note-drone aka ditty ditty). It makes it feel like clawhammer, you’re right. And he brushes, which really seals the deal on that clawhammerish sound. Reminds me of Bascom Lamar Lunsford’s playing.

But, again, I’m looking for a driving gallop here that’s not present in this playing. There’s something of a rolling gallop to Creed Birchfield’s playing that is both subtle and authoritative.

And I’m pretty sure that Ronnie Poe is just playing down the neck scruggs style backup, but with a constant forward roll. I love the sound. Again, it’s subtle but authoritative.

Bill Rogers - Posted - 02/08/2022:  09:50:19

For 3-finger, check out Aaron Tacke’s work with Steam Machine and more recently, Hard Drive.

lucass - Posted - 02/08/2022:  09:53:39

Exactly Bill, he's a great player. Any recommendations on learning resources for that type of backup? Aaron Tacke's playing reminds me a lot of Ronnie Poe. I dig it.

chip arnold - Posted - 02/08/2022:  10:59:05

Lucass, Arnold Watson has his thumb on the inside strings a whole lot.

Here's a 2-finger attempt at Sally Ann with Mary Gordon. Maybe still not what you're looking for :-)



banjohangout.org/myhangout/med...archived=

Edited by - chip arnold on 02/08/2022 11:00:21

grackle - Posted - 02/08/2022:  11:51:23

It looks like Aaron is a BHO member as altacke. Maybe reach out to him and ask him for pointers or some Zoom time? I agree. He's a great player of the style you are wanting to emulate.

RG - Posted - 02/08/2022:  12:28:23

quote:

---

Originally posted by lucass

@RG, thanks for the response, and I have done quite a bit of searching and not really come up with the helpful resources.



- The thread you linked covers much of the 2 finger "solo accompaniment" feeling learning resources, Rosenbaum and Schroeder books specifically, not really what I'm going for.



-I'm glad you mentioned Wade Mainer, I'd love to find any resources that specifically teach his style. While I've seen the Holt video, and I've read the slight mention of him in Old Time Mountain Banjo, I've never found anything that showcases his style (Index lead, I know) or specifically tabs out a tune.



- I understand that Birchfield played index lead, and again I've never seen any resource that helps understand his style, again no tabs or guidance.



- Jackie Phelps takes an impressive break in a bluegrass setting, but again not really what my post was about.

---

Your ears are your best guidance quite honestly... maybe check out the video's of Clyde Troxell who plays fiddle tunes in a "driving" two finger style that you seem to want to emulate.  As far as Creed Birchfield, this video shows you about all you would need to know to play in his style technique wise.  The "gallop" you describe?  It's accenting the downbeat... old-time isn't backbeat music, it's dancing music based off of the downbeat to lead the dancers... old-time downbow fiddle is what Creed replicates in his playing.  As Chip Arnold (as good an index lead player as there is out there) pointed out, any CH tab is adaptable to index lead playing.  Maybe watch some of Clifton Hicks' videos, he plays a Birchfield style as well on some of his songs.  I'd pick out a song that you have a CH tab for, and just keep playing it until it sounds like what you want it to sound like... that's the traditional way and a lot of fun.

chip arnold - Posted - 02/08/2022:  13:09:18

What RG said ... It's so much about what notes you do or don't play. It's about where and how you put the emphasis.

lucass - Posted - 02/08/2022:  13:18:41

Thanks RG and Chip.

janolov - Posted - 02/09/2022:  09:32:00

Regarding the style of Creed Birchfield, I think he is using some kind of "index drag". The playing pattern seems to be a bum-di-ty or bum-pa-di-ty rhythm where

• bum = the thumb plays s string (mostly 4th and 3rd, but sometimes also fifth and second string)


• pa = a hammer on, slide or pull of the string played in the "bum", or nothing


• di = the first string is played by index finger


• ty = in the same movement the index drags up to the second string

But as Chips said, often it does not matter what notes you are playing or with which finger you are playing the notes, it is more about about where and how ypu put the emphasis. The same effect as Creed's playing can be obtained by clawhammer, two finger index lead, two finger thumb lead or three-finger, or with plectrum banjo or tenor banjo.

OldTimeAddict - Posted - 02/09/2022:  17:01:23

Hey All...new-ish banjo player here...and I too, am looking to get that driving 3 finger sound thing as well....I'd like to add a few other potential source inspiration..

Kenny Baker Grassy Fiddle Blues , Bob Black is the banjoist...right where you're looking to be..

The Onlies ( self titled ) Riley Calgano , driving , beautiful 3 finger on an openback

And , yes, Aaron Take from Steam Machine and Hard Drive absolutley BURNS!..

Hope this helps

Early Foghorn Stringband. PT Grover Jr banjo...

And of course, Jason Romero's 3 finger OT is to die for.

ipik5 - Posted - 02/09/2022:  17:22:32

I seen a you tube video last year of Bluegrass banjo player legend Sammy Shelor picking banjo with an old time group and boy it was some good sounding old time banjo with drive!

From Greylock to Bean Blossom - Posted - 02/15/2022:  06:26:50

Here is Clifton Hicks teaching the style that Creed Birchfield uses. He even mentions Creed in the lesson. youtube.com/watch?v=y6p10I_8n3s

I, like you, Lucas, love his drive. I was watching him this morning using resonator and picks. He is not dainty and boy I like it.  I was wondering what banjo he played.

I was trying to find his album but they are out at amazon.

ken

Clifton Hicks - Posted - 02/19/2022:  04:26:50

quote:

---

Originally posted by From Greylock to Bean Blossom

Here is Clifton Hicks teaching the style that Creed Birchfield uses. He even mentions Creed in the lesson. youtube.com/watch?v=y6p10I_8n3s

I, like you, Lucas, love his drive. I was watching him this morning using resonator and picks. He is not dainty and boy I like it.  I was wondering what banjo he played.

I was trying to find his album but they are out at amazon.

ken

---

Creed Birchfield owned several banjos. One of the ones he recorded with was a 1980s Goya "Masterpiece" that I owned at one time (purchased from a family friend for $400).



The banjo in question: youtu.be/S-4rku2ms20