Tractor1 - Posted - 02/12/2024:  08:17:26

-yeh I know how to build it anywhere on the neck--and I know the A is a 2 the b is a third the C a four and D is a 5 etc. etc.-but the fiddle tune genres --many times drop the 1 chord down a whole tone to one built on the flatted 7 of the major scale-which of course is the 10th note of the chromatic scale--
I don't really want reasons or mode info --I just want to know the official name --since it is used so much--One can not call it the seven--because most would get confused by the usual well known dominant 7 families=
that would be G in the key of A or a C in the key of D etc

Texasbanjo - Posted - 02/12/2024:  08:28:23

I'm not sure there is an "official" name for it, at least not in bluegrass music. It is generally called F or 7th (whether # or b), sometimes Fdim and sometimes Fflat. Sometimes it's just called an "odd" chord or an "off" chord. A lot of bluegrass pickers have little or no theory but have just learned to play via listening, parroting and noodling.

I'll let the theory scholars give you the official definition.

wrench13 - Posted - 02/12/2024:  08:35:00

Its just an F chord, no matter where its played. Now if its an F note in the G scale its a flatted 7th.

Lew H - Posted - 02/12/2024:  08:44:33

I think the question is about what the chord would be in the Nashville numbering system, which I don't understand completely. Maybe someone else has a link or an answer.

Tractor1 - Posted - 02/12/2024:  08:48:07

I already know it is an F chord and the f natural is a flatted major 7 in the key of G and how adding it to a G chord makes a 7th chord yada yada --but what would an F chord be called in a chord chart where the chords are called out by their diatonic location as in nashville short hand or jazz theory--thanks

gordon shumway - Posted - 02/12/2024:  09:02:52

can't seem to make the flat sign work, but it's flat sign 7.

Edited by - gordon shumway on 02/12/2024 09:06:07

250gibson - Posted - 02/12/2024:  09:37:58

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tractor1

I already know it is an F chord and the f natural is a flatted major 7 in the key of G and how adding it to a G chord makes a 7th chord yada yada --but what would an F chord be called in a chord chart where the chords are called out by their diatonic location as in nashville short hand or jazz theory--thanks

---

It is the bVII7.  It is the same chord as the G in the key of A and the C in the key of G.  With respect to Nashville numbers or Jazz theory, these are not sevens either, but flat sevens. 

KCJones - Posted - 02/12/2024:  09:47:05

I always call it "the weird chord". Also effective for Bflat and Amajor played in G. 



As in, "for this next song, the weird chord is an F."

Edited by - KCJones on 02/12/2024 09:48:28

250gibson - Posted - 02/12/2024:  09:49:25

quote:

---

Originally posted by Texasbanjo

I'm not sure there is an "official" name for it, at least not in bluegrass music. It is generally called F or 7th (whether # or b), sometimes Fdim and sometimes Fflat. Sometimes it's just called an "odd" chord or an "off" chord. A lot of bluegrass pickers have little or no theory but have just learned to play via listening, parroting and noodling.



I'll let the theory scholars give you the official definition.

---

A chord built on F in the Key of G would not be diminished, one built on F# would be.  It also never would be called Fflat. 

janolov - Posted - 02/12/2024:  10:04:31

An F chord in the key of G should be named bVII - the flattened seventh note in the scale and consists of the notes F, C and A.  A F# chord should be VII and consist of F#, C# and A#. Also, a F# dim chord consists of the notes in the G scale: F#, A, C and should be named ^oVII.

Old Hickory - Posted - 02/12/2024:  10:15:16

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tractor1

what would an F chord be called in a chord chart where the chords are called out by their diatonic location as in nashville short hand or jazz theory

---

Another vote for  "flat seven."

In my experience jamming in NYC with people who know more about this stuff than I do, this was always called simply the seven chord, then there'd be 5 seconds of discussion to specify/clarify yes it's the "flat seven," which everyone accepted as the correct name for the non-diatonic F chord in G.

I suppose the reason my musically knowledgeable jam-mates would call F chord in G simply "the seven" and know what they meant is because the flat seven is the seventh-degree chord most likely to occur (as in essentially always)  in bluegrass while the Major 7 chord is unlikely to occur (like essentially never). But you wouldn't write it with that assumption.

Edited by - Old Hickory on 02/12/2024 10:16:30

Old Hickory - Posted - 02/12/2024:  10:22:39

quote:

---

Originally posted by 250gibson

It is the bVII7.  It is the same chord as the G in the key of A and the C in the key of G.  With respect to Nashville numbers or Jazz theory, these are not sevens either, but flat sevens. 

---

I think you meant C in the key of D. But these are good points.

The "flat 7" is common in bluegrass, folk, and the old Irish/Celtic fiddle tradition.

trapdoor2 - Posted - 02/12/2024:  10:25:02

bVII in the context of a major key, is usually a "borrowed chord", borrowed from the parallel minor (Gm).

It often makes a smoother sounding transition than the VII° chord...and more players know Fmaj than F#° !

Old Hickory - Posted - 02/12/2024:  10:25:21

quote:

---

Originally posted by KCJones

I always call it "the weird chord". Also effective for Bflat and Amajor played in G. 



As in, "for this next song, the weird chord is an F."

---

We'd call those flat III (B flat) and II Major (A)  when playing in G.

250gibson - Posted - 02/12/2024:  10:34:27

quote:

---

Originally posted by Old Hickory

quote:

---

Originally posted by 250gibson

It is the bVII7.  It is the same chord as the G in the key of A and the C in the key of G.  With respect to Nashville numbers or Jazz theory, these are not sevens either, but flat sevens. 

---

I think you meant C in the key of D. But these are good points.

The "flat 7" is common in bluegrass, folk, and the old Irish/Celtic fiddle tradition.

---

Yes, you are correct. I was quoting the OP without using copy/paste

Tractor1 - Posted - 02/12/2024:  10:38:13

thanks one and all



looks like flat sign roman numeral 7 is going to be it--

as far as the f sharp-in G didn't that happen in dear old dixie once -but I won't bet on it-

not a good idea to quote this op for sure ha ha

Edited by - Tractor1 on 02/12/2024 10:39:33

aaronoble - Posted - 02/12/2024:  11:51:44

quote:

---

Originally posted by trapdoor2

bVII in the context of a major key, is usually a "borrowed chord", borrowed from the parallel minor (Gm).



It often makes a smoother sounding transition than the VII° chord...and more players know Fmaj than F#° !

---

Not sure I'd agree about the smooth transition; the F#° is in the harmonized scale (super smooth to me)

Nic Pennsylvania - Posted - 02/12/2024:  12:04:53

The presence of a VIIb chord typically indicates that the tune is Mixolydian. While this is not always the case, it more often than not holds true.

This means that the tonal centre is G, but you're using the notes from the key of C.

Texasbanjo - Posted - 02/12/2024:  12:22:47

quote:

---

Originally posted by 250gibson

quote:

---

Originally posted by Texasbanjo

I'm not sure there is an "official" name for it, at least not in bluegrass music. It is generally called F or 7th (whether # or b), sometimes Fdim and sometimes Fflat. Sometimes it's just called an "odd" chord or an "off" chord. A lot of bluegrass pickers have little or no theory but have just learned to play via listening, parroting and noodling.



I'll let the theory scholars give you the official definition.

---

A chord built on F in the Key of G would not be diminished, one built on F# would be.  It also never would be called Fflat. 

---

You have your idea of theory and I have mine.  I've heard it called both those terms for years.  I didn't say it was correct, I said that's what it was sometimes called. 

mmuussiiccaall - Posted - 02/12/2024:  12:26:00

Subtonic chord

Old Hickory - Posted - 02/12/2024:  12:38:48

While we're delving a little into theory, I'd lightly correct or perhaps slightly add to my earlier comment that "the flat 7 is the seventh degree chord most likely to occur in bluegrass" (which is why my former jam-mates would often just call it the seven).

I still believe that's true, in that you'll probably never see an F#dim (the actual seven chord in G) written in a bluegrass chord chart. 

But I didn't want to imply that the F#dim has no use in bluegrass -- or banjo. It has plenty. And some of us may use it a lot without realizing it. The three notes of the vii° triad (F#-A-C in key of G) are contained within the four notes of the V7 (D7):  D-F#-A-C.  Which means every time you play a full four-note D7 you're also playing a three-note F#dim. Which also means you can play just the three notes of F#dim as a chord substitute for D7. Both the vii° (dim) and V7 provide a sound of tension we want to hear resolve back to the one (I) chord.  When you play the F#dim, you're simply leaving out the D7's root note, which other instruments are going to cover anyway. 

250gibson - Posted - 02/12/2024:  12:52:12

quote:

---

Originally posted by Texasbanjo

quote:

---

Originally posted by 250gibson

quote:

---

Originally posted by Texasbanjo

I'm not sure there is an "official" name for it, at least not in bluegrass music. It is generally called F or 7th (whether # or b), sometimes Fdim and sometimes Fflat. Sometimes it's just called an "odd" chord or an "off" chord. A lot of bluegrass pickers have little or no theory but have just learned to play via listening, parroting and noodling.



I'll let the theory scholars give you the official definition.

---

A chord built on F in the Key of G would not be diminished, one built on F# would be.  It also never would be called Fflat. 

---

You have your idea of theory and I have mine.  I've heard it called both those terms for years.  I didn't say it was correct, I said that's what it was sometimes called. 

---

I believe I have also heard it called Charlie; or sometimes Ronald, however I don’t think that the OP was looking for an answer based on some idea of music theory where the names of various concepts are something other then the names most widely associated with and/or accepted in western music theory. 

Tractor1 - Posted - 02/12/2024:  12:55:13

now i done told yall i didn wanna hear about modes or reasons--I already had seen those facts left and right-- I knew it would come to this--but I got my answer already so please have at it--

The diminished and dominant sevens are so much the same I usually go with the half brother D seventh instead of the diminished group that includes F-sharp- or Bflat--or C orD sharp ---cause thats what Earl used

Edited by - Tractor1 on 02/12/2024 12:55:49

aaronoble - Posted - 02/12/2024:  13:04:46

quote:

---

Originally posted by Nic Pennsylvania

The presence of a VIIb chord typically indicates that the tune is Mixolydian. While this is not always the case, it more often than not holds true.



This means that the tonal centre is G, but you're using the notes from the key of C.

---

THIS!

Thank you for this comment; it made so many things clear to me :)

(I had thought of the bVII as a lazy VII°, but if people play it, then it's in a key... I just never thought about what key that would be.)

mmuussiiccaall - Posted - 02/12/2024:  13:09:40

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tractor1

now i done told yall i didn wanna hear about modes or reasons--I already had seen those facts left and right-- I knew it would come to this--but I got my answer already so please have at it--

---

Tony here's the whole shebang in 8 languages

Languages

 

Alex Z - Posted - 02/12/2024:  13:35:05

"I just want to know the official name"

"Flat seven" is the shorthand term, in the jargon of the music business.

Not "flat seventh" or "flatted seventh" or "flat seven seventh" or any reference to modes, dominants, or diminisheds.

Example:

  "What do we do there?"

  "Flat seven"

  "Got it."

Tim Jumper - Posted - 02/12/2024:  17:09:47

As many have said, it's a "flat seven" (not "seventh" -- different animal).
A good example of how the rarely used diatonic "seven" sounds in the key of G is in the "release" or "bridge" of the old Civil War-era song "Lorena," resurrected by the late, great John Hartford: sequence = Em - F# - Bm - Em - D7.

250gibson - Posted - 02/12/2024:  18:29:44

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tim Jumper

As many have said, it's a "flat seven" (not "seventh" -- different animal).

A good example of how the rarely used diatonic "seven" sounds in the key of G is in the "release" or "bridge" of the old Civil War-era song "Lorena," resurrected by the late, great John Hartford: sequence = Em - F# - Bm - Em - D7.

---

That wouldn't be a seven chord. The seven chord in the key of G would be F#dim. That F# is a dominant chord (secondary dominant). It would be the  V of iii. 

Jerry Hatrick - Posted - 02/13/2024:  01:30:33

The bVII chord is a vital chord in various genres, not just for songs like Old Joe Clark, Rain and Snow, Little Maggie, Salt Creek, June Apple, etc, but is well used in pop, rock and even heavy metal, to avoid the sweetness and perhaps predictability of the standard three chord trick.

Ira Gitlin - Posted - 02/13/2024:  06:46:00

quote:

---

Originally posted by KCJones

I always call it "the weird chord". 

---

In the bluegrass circles I frequent, anything other than 1, 4, or 5 can be called an "off chord". The flatted 7--the topic of this thread--is sometimes (though not universally) referred to as a "drop chord". In his unpublished (?) paper "Shuffle In Charlie: Technical Communications Among Improvising Musicians", Mayne Smith mentions this as a Nashville term, but I first heard it as something the old-timers in Baltimore would say--for example, " 'Little Maggie'? That's got the drop chord in it, don't it?"

Tim Jumper - Posted - 02/13/2024:  12:13:06

250gibson:

I take your point about F#dim in the key of G, but if the "Lorena" bridge is construed as a modulation to the key of E minor, then F# would function as a II chord, n'est-pa?

Old Hickory - Posted - 02/13/2024:  14:52:22

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tim Jumper

I take your point about F#dim in the key of G, but if the "Lorena" bridge is construed as a modulation to the key of E minor, then F# would function as a II chord, n'est-pa?

---

The flavor of F# functioning as the two in E minor is F#dim.  F# Major (if that's the chord you're calling for) would be non-diatonic; in my jams, people would call it the "two major" to indicate it's not the "real" two.

I think I'd expect to play a B7 there (the V7 in E harmonic minor) instead of any form of F# and then hold it until going back to the Em.

250gibson - Posted - 02/13/2024:  15:16:45

Some people play either a F#Minor or F#Dominant in there before the B (which I have seen as both Bminor and BDominant), however I have never seen nor heard the F#diminished chord used, which would be the diatonic chord in either Gmajor (viidim) or Eminor (iidim). The F#minor and F# dominant both contain a C# note which would make both of them borrowed chords.

banjoak - Posted - 02/13/2024:  17:03:45

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tractor1

-yeh I know how to build it anywhere on the neck--and I know the A is a 2 the b is a third the C a four and D is a 5 etc. etc.-but the fiddle tune genres --many times drop the 1 chord down a whole tone to one built on the flatted 7 of the major scale-which of course is the 10th note of the chromatic scale--

I don't really want reasons or mode info --I just want to know the official name --since it is used so much--One can not call it the seven--because most would get confused by the usual well known dominant 7 families=

that would be G in the key of A or a C in the key of D etc

---

Is "official" goal worried about  passing some exam, getting "right" answer on test or such? Perhaps, about winning some argument, what's technically correct or written in a textbook?

If just about communication? Which depends on context of music and who you are playing with... how they would interpret. Often use simple shorthand; and requires or involves listening and intuitive understanding the context of the music (like modes). A simple quick "7" will likely suffice for most experienced players. Mostly due to recognizing as "modal" quality going on... not every song is major (nor need to use that filter); an F#dim would not be intuitive likely to fit (and would be immediately noticed sounds wrong). Likely some Mixolydian, Dorian, or Aeolian... to which the seventh note in G tonic is F natural; part of that harmonic layout. Don't really need to say flatted 7 or write b7. In similar way if something is minor, don't need to say flat third, as it already is.

Speaking of trying to filter all thru major diatonic... dealing with basic concept of modes even just minor key; there is sometimes confusion about which numbers.  Some folks are basing on number of sharps or flats. That is, if in key of E minor, one sharp... is the 1 chord Em or G? For me it makes sense to call Em 1; G is 3.

"I know the A is a 2" 

Similar shorthand, about context and interpretation,  - you will hear folks just say "2 chord"; but (in key of G) that mean Am, or Am7, but other tunes might mean A major, or often A7; similar sometimes "six" might mean VI7 (E7). It's generally not difficult to figure out what they mean.

----------

Of course some folks find it important to spend 10 to15 minutes at jam, or band practice; lecturing, debating, arguing about which is the official "right" 

mmuussiiccaall - Posted - 02/13/2024:  17:28:34

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tim Jumper

As many have said, it's a "flat seven" (not "seventh" -- different animal).

A good example of how the rarely used diatonic "seven" sounds in the key of G is in the "release" or "bridge" of the old Civil War-era song "Lorena," resurrected by the late, great John Hartford: sequence = Em - F# - Bm - Em - D7.

---

Ladies and gentlemen, there is no F# or Bm chord in LORENA!

Tractor1 - Posted - 02/13/2024:  17:59:51

flat seven does not really explain it--But I '' had'' already seen it as correct --on other sites--but most chord books --don't bring the-- example under discussion --into the fold--

to me modes are not a whole lot of use---I still end up looking for harmony notes---and chord theory does not transfer much into modes --of course lightning might strike--

anyway it's

that one 2 frets down from a G

Edited by - Tractor1 on 02/13/2024 18:08:37

Tim Jumper - Posted - 02/14/2024:  07:06:43

Re: "Lorena" by H.D.L. and J.P. Webster.
Those chords appear in the transcription to be found in the book "Heart Songs" (Chapple, Boston,1909) pp. 242-243. The key there is A major, which I simply transposed to G.
Others are free to harmonize it differently.

mmuussiiccaall - Posted - 02/14/2024:  07:49:33

Lorena ala Hartford

Lorena

 

Tim Jumper - Posted - 02/14/2024:  16:18:20

John, God rest his soul, is one of the others.

mmuussiiccaall - Posted - 02/14/2024:  18:08:27

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tim Jumper

John, God rest his soul, is one of the others.

---

Yeah, he's the other you mentioned.

Nic Pennsylvania - Posted - 02/15/2024:  04:58:54

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tractor1

to me modes are not a whole lot of use---I still end up looking for harmony notes---and chord theory does not transfer much into modes --of course lightning might strike--

---

Hey, Tom. Maybe this will help? I know it helped me understand and find the "safe" harmony notes when playing modal tunes. Let's just stick with mixolydian and dorian, as they are likely the two most common modes people playing bluegrass, old-time, and Celtic music encounter (aside from the regular old major [ionian] and minor [aeolian]).



Lets look at the C scale's diatonic chords: 



(I)C - (ii)dm - (iii)em - (IV)F - (V)G - (vi)am - (vii)Bdim

Like I wrote the other day, seeing a flat 7 typically indicates that a song is in the mixolydian mode (of course, not always, but far more often than not). The mixolydian mode is based off the fifth note in the parent scale. That's our G note. The G mixolydian mode therefore, has not just the same notes as the C scale, but it has the same chords, as these are the basic triads that you can create using only the notes from the scale. 

If I write the chords out, renumbering them with G at the helm, we get this: 

(I)G - (ii)am - (iii)bdim - (IV) C - (v)dm - (vi)em - (VII)F .  A common mixo progression, a la "Little Maggie" would be a I - IV - VII. 



Looking real quick at dorian. The dorian mode is based on the second note in the parent scale. Lets stay with the C scale which gives us the notes for D dorian. Our chords then are... 



(i)dm - (ii)em - (III)F - (IV)G - (v)am - (vi)bdim - (VII)C. The Celtic tune "Drowsy Maggie" progression would mostly be i - VII. 

The notes, and the chords, remain the same as the parent scale. Referring back to the parent scale helped me tremendously. I hope this doesn't come off as smug, as I don't mean it to. Honestly, it has helped me in a lot of situations. 

Edited by - Nic Pennsylvania on 02/15/2024 05:01:02

Tractor1 - Posted - 02/15/2024:  05:51:02

Thanks Nic and yes thanks for the not being smug words too--we need to act like good neighbors in this world for sure--I guess I will still be mostly be using my ears and taste--to pick suitable harmony----I just ran into that on the vid I have posted--which is the bluegrass version of Patty(paddy)on the Turnpike--the A part keeps throwing in a quiver with an F note and D note as the main on the beat melody note--A dminor--changed the mood too much so i ended up sparingly using G7 - with an abundance of Ds and Fs in the inversions on the key board--The second part goes to a full fledged F chord with the F and C and A notes holding the melody job---

I play Sleepy Maggie and Drowsy Maggie together I'll will ponder what you say on these--Since I play the keyboard a bit and you are speaking about only the white keys in the key of C ------that simplifies it even more--On these and things like copper plate I would be hitting a lot o A minor to G I think but not sure--without running thru them

The history of the modes and their progression into the tempered scale left many great artifacts through the ages--for us to ponder

Edited by - Tractor1 on 02/15/2024 05:52:21

rupickin5 - Posted - 02/15/2024:  15:21:22

Flat seven

Ira Gitlin - Posted - 02/15/2024:  19:23:21

quote:

---

Originally posted by mmuussiiccaall

---

Ladies and gentlemen, there is no F# or Bm chord in LORENA!

---

There are if you play it in the key of D!

mmuussiiccaall - Posted - 02/15/2024:  19:44:08

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ira Gitlin

quote:

---

Originally posted by mmuussiiccaall

---

Ladies and gentlemen, there is no F# or Bm chord in LORENA!

---

There are if you play it in the key of D!

---

ha ha Ira you're exactly right but you're gonna stir this pot up even more, you are a very astute gentleman!  Let me take this opportunity to say I for one hold all your comments in high regard

Julio B - Posted - 02/16/2024:  08:37:19

In the key of G, playing an F major chord is playing a seven chord.

250gibson - Posted - 02/16/2024:  09:42:26

quote:

---

Originally posted by Julio B

In the key of G, playing an F major chord is playing a seven chord.

---

What would playing a F# diminished chord be called in the key of G?

mmuussiiccaall - Posted - 02/16/2024:  10:31:16

quote:

---

Originally posted by 250gibson

quote:

---

Originally posted by Julio B

In the key of G, playing an F major chord is playing a seven chord.

---

What would playing a F# diminished chord be called in the key of G?

---

Well, technically if it's a triad, it's called F sharp diminished but if it's a chord it's called F sharp half diminished 

250gibson - Posted - 02/16/2024:  10:56:53

quote:

---

Originally posted by mmuussiiccaall

quote:

---

Originally posted by 250gibson

quote:

---

Originally posted by Julio B

In the key of G, playing an F major chord is playing a seven chord.

---

What would playing a F# diminished chord be called in the key of G?

---

Well, technically if it's a triad, it's called F sharp diminished but if it's a chord it's called F sharp half diminished 

---

I know that.  I was more asking (rhetorically), and inferring how it is not possible for a chord built on F and chord built on F# to both be seven chords in the key if G. 

Also, technically, naming a chord without the 7th implies a triad.