250gibson - Posted - 02/16/2024:  14:01:52

quote:

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Originally posted by Tractor1

a diminished chord is 4 notes imo 1-3-5-6-- 3 and 5 dropped down a fret

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Diminished chord (triad) = 1-b3-b5 ex. F#dim or F#o = F#-A-C

Diminished 7 chord = 1-b3-b5-bb7  ex. F#dim7 or F#o7 = F#-A-C-Eb(D#)

Half Diminished 7 chord = 1-b3-b5-b7 ex. F#min7b5 or F#ø7 = F#-A-C-E

In a diminished 7 chord the bb7 and 6 are enharmonic, however it is a 7 chord not a 6 chord.  

Tractor1 - Posted - 02/16/2024:  14:27:41

It looks like you are right 250==but I am referring to diminished 7 which adds the 6--which I always use--they are plenty close for the here comes the danger sound --and one of the 2 chords that repeats up the neck --exact same formation-- at each chord tone=so a g diminished 7 is also a b flat dim or c sharp dim or an e dim --the reason this works is they are every third note and divide into 12 equally--the 7 I use in these is actually double flatted thus it is the 6--but in my head i think relative minor
I do an over under roll and go up the neck every 3 notes and put them in an ending or silent spot

Tractor1 - Posted - 02/16/2024:  14:43:23

Looks like this guy has it wrong also-https://simplifyingtheory.com/d...hed-chord/

Edited by - Tractor1 on 02/16/2024 14:45:14

Tractor1 - Posted - 02/16/2024:  17:06:59

since all the notes in the diminished triad are the exact same relation to each --the 6 is just more of the same and has little if no reason to not always be there --

mmuussiiccaall - Posted - 02/16/2024:  23:23:39

quote:

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Originally posted by Tractor1

since all the notes in the diminished triad are the exact same relation to each --the 6 is just more of the same and has little if no reason to not always be there --

That sixth is out of the parent scale. That's the problem with the full diminished it adds a D sharp in this case into the key of G

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janolov - Posted - 02/16/2024:  23:32:53

The diminishet 7 chord does not include the 6! It includes a diminished 7, that is way it is called a diminished 7. However, the diminished 7th note of the scale is the same as 6th in the scale. For example in C major, the diminished 7th note should be written Bbb which is the same as A.

Tractor1 - Posted - 02/17/2024:  05:06:35

I already covered these facts and stick to using the e note in a diminished g chord and calling it the six note and also calling it the relative minor-I don't just use the notes because they are in the parent scale--or vice versa--the 4 note diminished is unique in it's physical structure and the added 6 needs to be there for that --if you all don't like it fine-- I can find books and experts to cover my views just as much as those to the contrary--I realize in written music sometimes the e in this case would have to be written as a double flatted F sharp --but that is over kill when in conversation I am pointing out an e note to someone and we are in the key of g

simplifyingtheory.com/diminished-chord/

Edited by - Tractor1 on 02/17/2024 05:17:51

Tractor1 - Posted - 02/17/2024:  05:40:18

the diminished chord I use is yes not just the diminished triad because it would be missing a stepping stone in the every 3 semitone layout--

when played all alone (with the added 6) the notes have the exact same relation to each other --so the e fits exactly the same as all the rest--

but yes if I had to take a test on this I would have to call it a double flatted seventh diminished--but odds are when one runs into a diminished-it will be one with the added six

my opinion I ask no agreement

there are many different ways to view and make use of chord theory and what violates one person's view might well serve a person with different  methods-

Edited by - Tractor1 on 02/17/2024 05:54:14

RB3 - Posted - 02/17/2024:  08:23:29

My background in music theory is sadly lacking, but it seems to me that this is like asking what Earl Scruggs real name is. If you play an F note, an A note and a C note simultaneously, isn't that by definition an F chord? Or, if you consider either the A note or the C note to be the root of a chord with the notes F, A, and C, do we have three different chords with the same notes, but three different names?

And, for Brian Lappin, I have this question.  Do you have a written excuse for not being at Banjothon this year?

Edited by - RB3 on 02/17/2024 08:26:25

Ira Gitlin - Posted - 02/18/2024:  07:56:39

quote:

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Originally posted by RB3

My background in music theory is sadly lacking, but it seems to me that this is like asking what Earl Scruggs real name is. If you play an F note, an A note and a C note simultaneously, isn't that by definition an F chord? Or, if you consider either the A note or the C note to be the root of a chord with the notes F, A, and C, do we have three different chords with the same notes, but three different names?

 

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The question in the original post isn't--as I understand it--asking about what to call an F chord per se; rather, it's the more general question of what to call a major chord whose root is a whole step below the root of the key.

banjoak - Posted - 02/19/2024:  11:18:57

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Originally posted by 250gibson

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Originally posted by mmuussiiccaall

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Originally posted by 250gibson

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Originally posted by Julio B

In the key of G, playing an F major chord is playing a seven chord.

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What would playing a F# diminished chord be called in the key of G?

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Well, technically if it's a triad, it's called F sharp diminished but if it's a chord it's called F sharp half diminished 

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I know that.  I was more asking (rhetorically), and inferring how it is not possible for a chord built on F and chord built on F# to both be seven chords in the key if G. 

Also, technically, naming a chord without the 7th implies a triad.  

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Mode. If speaking of remaining pure diatonic space, modes have different diatonic notes.

F major chord is in G Mixolydian, G Aeolian and G  Dorian... has F natural as seventh note in mode; as such the chord built off that seventh is the VII in those. (not a flatted seventh)

If  G "major"; then pure Ionian diatonic wouldn't have an F major chord.

tbab2057 - Posted - 02/21/2024:  08:41:26

In the key of G, the F chord in the Nashville Number System is technically a flat seven chord, though many jammers refer to it as 'the seven chord', most people know what they mean.

jofflowson - Posted - 03/02/2024:  01:01:44

The correct name for the F chord played in the key of G is the Seven chord.

When we are talking about the seventh note, that could be the standard seventh, which would be f sharp; or the flat seventh, which would be f natural. However the terminology is used differently for chords compared to notes.

The chord built on the f sharp would be a diminished chord, which is not commonly used in Bluegrass.

The key point is that the kind of tunes that normally use this chord also use the mixolydian scale, which has the f natural instead of the f sharp. So the f natural is the seventh degree (note) of the scale, therefore the f chord is the seven chord.

mmuussiiccaall - Posted - 03/02/2024:  06:46:13

quote:

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Originally posted by jofflowson

The correct name for the F chord played in the key of G is the Seven chord.



When we are talking about the seventh note, that could be the standard seventh, which would be f sharp; or the flat seventh, which would be f natural. However the terminology is used differently for chords compared to notes.



The chord built on the f sharp would be a diminished chord, which is not commonly used in Bluegrass.



The key point is that the kind of tunes that normally use this chord also use the mixolydian scale, which has the f natural instead of the f sharp. So the f natural is the seventh degree (note) of the scale, therefore the f chord is the seven chord.

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OK. Give a name to the D chord in wheel hoss

GFGFGFDG

jofflowson - Posted - 03/02/2024:  07:01:24

The D would be the 5 chord.

I'm not sure I understand where you're trying to go with this question.

However the D major chord would normally have the f sharp note in it.

All music theory is built upon the diatonic scale, which is confusingly named because it literally means 'Two tones' but actually has seven notes. The name Diatonic is referring to the whole step and half step, also called the tone and semi-tone. The diatonic scale is a series of steps between notes consisting of three whole steps, a half step, two whole steps, one more half step. This is best seen in the white notes of the piano keyboard. You can also see it in the frets of the Appalachian dulcimer.

There are 7 notes in the diatonic scale. Once you get to note number 8 in the scale, you are back to the root note an octave higher. 'Octave' means eight, and this is why.

Having got all that out the way, hopefully I can add something interesting now.

A lot of music - I want to say most music - uses less than the available 7 notes of the diatonic scale.

Bluegrass is unusual because it uses more notes. For example we often use the minor and major thirds as part of the same tune. Same with the 7th note, we can use both the flat seventh and regular seventh in the same tune. Bluegrass even uses the sharp 4th note (think Tony Rice licks) so you might be using up to 10 notes in a given key.

mmuussiiccaall - Posted - 03/02/2024:  07:20:04

My question is, how do you account for the D chord being major in the scale of G mixolydian?

Edited by - mmuussiiccaall on 03/02/2024 07:21:14

jofflowson - Posted - 03/02/2024:  07:31:28

That's a good question.

First off, let's state that the melody of Wheel Hoss uses the flat seventh most of the time. So it's fair to say the tune is in G mixolydian.

You don't have to play the D as a major, you can play it in a lot of other ways, leaving out the f sharp note. That's how I would normally play. I'm not saying that's the correct way to do it!

I guess the simple answer is that you can do anything you like in music, as long as it sounds good. So there's no reason why you can't play a note out of the basic scale at a particular point in a song if you like the sound of it. That would apply both to playing the lead and playing chords.

In classical music they use the word 'Accidentals' to describe notes out of the basic scale. So conventional music notation is built on the assumption that there are just seven notes in the scale, and any notes you play out of the set of seven (there are twelve notes in the full chromatic scale) is written with a so-called 'Accidental' next to it. There are two standard accidentals, the sharp and the flat symbol.

As I said before, one of the distinctive characteristics of Bluegrass is that it uses a lot of extra notes out of the basic seven notes of the Diatonic scale, whereas most music does not. So you get these kind of questions all the time!