writerrad - Posted - 03/02/2023:  17:30:45

I am working with a young banjoist who is about to enter a master program--I wont identify more, so not to identify him. He is hoping to do a thesis on the Banjo Playing of Murphy or Murph Gribble who was recorded in 1946 by Stu Jameson and Margret Mayor and 1949 by Stu again. Gribble was the leader of a string band near Campaign Tennessee.



He was discovered because in 1946 Mayo and Stu decided to use their GI separation money to take a trip to areas in the South where they each had relatives and seek find folk musicians especially people who played fiddle and banjo. Stu who I got to know in the last three or four years of his life he spent in a Hospice here in Florida, told me NYC folk singers were so song oriented that they wondered why they were concerned with instrumentalists. He told me Fritz Kreisler the famous violinist (who Stu sneaked into to work square dances in NYC) wanted him to impress upon fiddlers the need for proper violin technique.



Anyway, when they got to middle Tennessee where Stu's great aunt lived, they just asked her what the best band was.  She said hands down it was this Black band we call Gribble Lusk and York whom Margaret and Stu Recorded. Stu who went on to a renown career with Bell Labs, and Cal Tech as a scientist of electronic and electrical engineering, and was a big part of the folk revival in both Los Angeles and New York, came back to record them again in 1949.



Some of their recordings are on Rounder Records "Black Appalachia"and Altamont Recordings. A superior set of all their recordings from both 1946 and 1949 have recently been made available on the Gribble Lusk and York Web site gribbleluskandyork.org/.



The original recordings housed in the library of Congress have been remastered and are in MP3, free for the download. Other recordings Ralph Rinzler made in the 1960s of Lusk, the band's fiddler, and I believe Lusk's son are there too. Most of the site is devoted to discussing Lusk, Gribble, and York from the standpoint of family history and Black Appalachian history, rather than music history.





Murph Gribble was the band leader, and though he also played fiddle, his role in the band was to play banjo.

Edited by - writerrad on 03/02/2023 18:07:07

writerrad - Posted - 03/02/2023:  17:54:48

Gribble clearly played in a three-finger or perhaps like Gus Cannon a full SS Stewart approved type of 4 finger style of finger picking.



This is what Stu observed and Stu had been familiar with it because his grandfather from North Carolina had played banjo in this what I believe properly called the guitar-banjo style, though it has come to be known as "classic banjo" by some since Eli Kaufman coined the term some time in the 60s or 70s. He seems to use a lot of rolls, and there seems to be an interchange going on between Gribble the banjoist and Lusk the fiddler over who is playing lead.



There is an overwhelming feeling of power and drive in their recordings which seem to possess like other African American string bands more vocals even on tunes not often heard in vocals.



In some ways the Gribble, Lusk, York band seems to be neglected in the banjo world, because Gribble was not a 2 finger picker and did not play claw hammer or down picking, at least on the recordings. Butit is really our best example of a recorded African American string band recorded when the music was extant.  All the other recordings we have of Black old time bands were made by folklorists and later folk revivalists after their music was no longer current, after these bands were no longer playing for community audiences.  These people drew a huge crowd of people just for the recordings.



Lomax recorded the Smith-Hemphill band in 1941 or 42 when their main work was with a horn band and a drum ensemble that Lomax recorded. Lowry and Kip Lornell came upon Odell and Joe Thompson in the 1970s and got them in touch with the old time music world.  Joe Thompson  told me there had been no interest in the string band music after he got back from WWII in 1946 beyond players getting together to play in each other's houses with no audience or dancers. Odell played guitar when there was a family band and went on to play electric guitar in R & B and even Rock and Roll groups before revivalists resuscitated the opportunity for Joe and Odell to perform.



In 1946 Stu just asked his aunt who had the best string band around her area of Tennessee. Stu told me that the band often busked in the streets of Campaign and the streets sometimes filled with people who listened or danced. When it was announced they would be recorded at the general store,  the only place with proper power, an enormous crowd of white people showed up to hear them. Stu told me the band said that no Blacks were afraid to come down here and go in the store for the music.



Stu told me there was so much commotion and cheering when they played that it upset the antiquated recording equipment he had begged from the LOC. He said that he made it sound like being from the LOC meant that they might have a squad of Marines around shortly to make them quiet.



The contrast between the cheering and love of the music was offset by the extreme racism. The band members lived 10-15 miles away.  The band started walking back in the middle of the night after the performance.  They were shy to accept, but Stu drove the band home through twisting roads that were little more than trails. Stu and Margaret both referred to Gribble, Lusk, and York as Mr since they were older males (I think all were veterans of WWI).



Stu told me his grand aunt in that community received hostility and comments for years afterward for Stu giving them a ride and for Stu and Margaret speaking of Mr Gribble, Mr. Lusk, and Mr. York breaking Jim Crow racial protocols.



Bill Evans did a wonderful tutorial on Gribble's version of Altamont that was in Banjo Hangout and is on their web site with video and tab and explanation by Bill.



My friend Andrew (Andy) Alexis has a YouTube of Cotton Blossom, but there is little else I can find about their actual playing.



I hope folks who care about it, or have tried to figure out Gribble's banjo playing can contribute here.

Edited by - writerrad on 03/02/2023 18:04:13

RG - Posted - 03/02/2023:  20:41:33

Some of the best old-time music ever recorded...

writerrad - Posted - 03/03/2023:  04:35:29

quote: For some reason  I cannot enter this post to edit an error.  Bill Evans tutorial on Murphy Gribble's playing of  Altamont was in the Banjo News Letter, not Banjo Hangout.  Although the BNL is not longer published,  their web sites remain up including one with Bill's article on Gribble's playing,  his video, and tab.

Really interested in folks interested in and with ideas about Gribble's banjo playing!!!

---

Originally posted by writerrad

Gribble clearly played in a three-finger or perhaps like Gus Cannon a full SS Stewart approved type of 4 finger style of finger picking.



This is what Stu observed and Stu had been familiar with it because his grandfather from North Carolina had played banjo in this what I believe properly called the guitar-banjo style, though it has come to be known as "classic banjo" by some since Eli Kaufman coined the term some time in the 60s or 70s. He seems to use a lot of rolls, and there seems to be an interchange going on between Gribble the banjoist and Lusk the fiddler over who is playing lead.



There is an overwhelming feeling of power and drive in their recordings which seem to possess like other African American string bands more vocals even on tunes not often heard in vocals.



In some ways the Gribble, Lusk, York band seems to be neglected in the banjo world, because Gribble was not a 2 finger picker and did not play claw hammer or down picking, at least on the recordings. Butit is really our best example of a recorded African American string band recorded when the music was extant.  All the other recordings we have of Black old time bands were made by folklorists and later folk revivalists after their music was no longer current, after these bands were no longer playing for community audiences.  These people drew a huge crowd of people just for the recordings.



Lomax recorded the Smith-Hemphill band in 1941 or 42 when their main work was with a horn band and a drum ensemble that Lomax recorded. Lowry and Kip Lornell came upon Odell and Joe Thompson in the 1970s and got them in touch with the old time music world.  Joe Thompson  told me there had been no interest in the string band music after he got back from WWII in 1946 beyond players getting together to play in each other's houses with no audience or dancers. Odell played guitar when there was a family band and went on to play electric guitar in R & B and even Rock and Roll groups before revivalists resuscitated the opportunity for Joe and Odell to perform.



In 1946 Stu just asked his aunt who had the best string band around her area of Tennessee. Stu told me that the band often busked in the streets of Campaign and the streets sometimes filled with people who listened or danced. When it was announced they would be recorded at the general store,  the only place with proper power, an enormous crowd of white people showed up to hear them. Stu told me the band said that no Blacks were afraid to come down here and go in the store for the music.



Stu told me there was so much commotion and cheering when they played that it upset the antiquated recording equipment he had begged from the LOC. He said that he made it sound like being from the LOC meant that they might have a squad of Marines around shortly to make them quiet.



The contrast between the cheering and love of the music was offset by the extreme racism. The band members lived 10-15 miles away.  The band started walking back in the middle of the night after the performance.  They were shy to accept, but Stu drove the band home through twisting roads that were little more than trails. Stu and Margaret both referred to Gribble, Lusk, and York as Mr since they were older males (I think all were veterans of WWI).



Stu told me his grand aunt in that community received hostility and comments for years afterward for Stu giving them a ride and for Stu and Margaret speaking of Mr Gribble, Mr. Lusk, and Mr. York breaking Jim Crow racial protocols.



Bill Evans did a wonderful tutorial on Gribble's version of Altamont that was in Banjo Hangout and is on their web site with video and tab and explanation by Bill.



My friend Andrew (Andy) Alexis has a YouTube of Cotton Blossom, but there is little else I can find about their actual playing.



I hope folks who care about it, or have tried to figure out Gribble's banjo playing can contribute here.

---

ndlxs - Posted - 03/03/2023:  05:41:58

Hi Tony;

I did try to write out both Altamont and Apple Blossom at one point; I would be happy to send them to you as tabledit files. I might be able to convert them to Musescore/musicxml.



I had an early interaction with Stu Jamieson either on Banjo-L (1990s?2000s?) or on the banjo usenet group; he was there when the recording was made, but his tab made no sense at all.  After the text exchange, he went back and listened to it again and agreed that it was wrong. 



The two players I have heard that seemed to imitate Murph's playing the best are Bill Evans' version of Altamont which was in one of the later issues of Banjo Newsletter and is close to the way I wrote it out; and the late Alan Hart on this CD:

bonedrymusic.com/Allen-Hart-Ol...2-1cd.htm



I'm glad to hear that a scholar is studying this; we have much to learn from his playing!  Message me your email and I will pass them along to you. 

writerrad - Posted - 03/03/2023:  10:32:21

Thanks:

Yes, if you sent me that tab in whatever form that you find it easy, it would be great!

I forgot that Alan had done Altamont on that recording. It still is painful that he is no longer around though it not has been years.  Cliff Irvin too was someone I got to know a bit.  



I will take a deep listen to that again. Others here who may have come into the Banjo World after Alan passed, this Album is one of the great old time banjo recordings of a variety of traditional style by a great and thoughtful banjoist who has gone to the next stage,

Edited by - writerrad on 03/03/2023 10:34:20

TomL - Posted - 03/03/2023:  12:22:59

Gribble's playing was wonderful. To my ear, Walter Legget, who played banjo in Dr. Humphrey Bate's band, and was also from Tennessee, may have been playing a simpler version of Gribble's style.

writerrad - Posted - 03/03/2023:  15:05:20

Thanks. I will check him out.

There seems to be a thread of people who seem to wish to look at the "roots" of 2-finger and especially clawhammer players, but no one wants to look at the thread of 3 and 4 finger players, which compounds with people who think Earl invented 3 finger banjo playing.

There are a surprising number of people who will insist to you that Murph Gribb;e frailed when he did not and STu rather clearly documented that he did not in his 1946 recordings and especially the recording of Altamont. Stu was quite familiar with the 3 finger approach because his grandfather .who like Stu's father was also a missionary in China. played outstanding 3 finger banjo in this style.

Dan Gellert - Posted - 03/05/2023:  16:30:35

Who said Gribble was frailing? Not on any of the recordings I've heard, though it does sound kind of like index-lead 2-finger sometimes

It's been a long time since I tried to figure out what he was doing, and I never did get anywhere near to imitating it with any fluency, but....

My general take on his approach is:
Mostly finger-lead backward rolls. He may have hit a thumb-lead riff here and there, but may well not have. Possible he never even dropped the thumb off the 5th string, but he probably did sometimes.
itmitmit, ititmitm, mitmitmi tmitmtit .....

Walter Legget's playing was a pretty consistent forward-roll pattern (itimtimt) on open-position chords. Wilmer Watts played a lot like that, and several others I can't think of at the moment.

writerrad - Posted - 03/05/2023:  17:48:40

quote:

"Who said Gribble was frailing? Not on any of the recordings I've heard, though it does sound kind of like index-lead 2-finger sometimes."

You will find people on the Internet saying that just because they assume African American banjo playing is all down picking,  Then some who assume all old time banjo picking before bluegrass was either 2 finger or frailing.  Lots of people do not know there is any other kind of old time playing other than frailing. 

There has been a folkie opposition to recognizing the influence and impact of what I call "the big world of the banjo" that emerged with the adoption of the banjo by white minstrels and the growth of popular music entertainers with the banjo, and the key development the perfection of the frame headed banjo as opposed to the gourd.  There is too much of a searching for "pure folk" or pure African-derived methods of playing, and fear of recognizing that folk players, Black players, southern players were part of the interchange that was going on on an international level. 

The guitar style of banjo playing was at the center of all of this for Black and white players. 

Stu was pretty explicit about it both that Gribble was a three-finger picker utilizing what SS Stewart and Converse would have called "the guitar style" of banjo.  Stu idolized his grandfather who played the banjo chiefly in that style and  recognized this style in Gribble's playing.  The recording of "Altamont: that Stu captured in 1949 is pretty clear.  In the 1949 recordings Stu lent Gribble his White Ladye #9 so the sound of the banjo is very clear and very explicit.

The guitar banjo style WAS the dominant style in the world of the banjo in the late 19th and Early 20th century.  I found in my research on Gus Cannon that Cannon preferred this style of playing to all others, although he could frail very well, and could still whip out 2 finger style tunes.   Almost every one of his 1927-1930 recordings were in that style of picking, all of them except tunes that reflected his band mates' vocal preferences, and the two tunes were he used an open E tuning he got from a guitar player, were in drop C

I know that Odell Thompson played most of his tunes on the banjo in G or drop C, and only one tune in CC.

What I also find interesting about the Gribble, Lusk, and York band to be interesting is they played pitched  pitched three steps down in A for C  as if the switch three step up in pitch and tuning had never occurred. 

 Gus Cannon was always pitched in proper C,  even in a recording I have from 1967 where a U of Memphis professor just came on his house, knocked on the door and came in with a tape recorder to interview him.  All of his 1927-30 recordings are in concert pitch. whereas the Black folk banjoists that Kip Lornell,  Cece, and others recorded from NC and Va were usually pitched quite high above concert pitch with a couple pitched as high as B or Bflat for G, or at least about 10 cents about G sharp.

My work on Cannon led me to discoverer that there was an entire string of African American banjoists who played the guitar-style of banjo including several, not just Weston, who were internationally famous performers across the late 19th century and early 20th.  I have one figure Vance Lowry who made a bunch of records in England and France during WWI  and the twenties, and returned to the US in the 1940s and is reported to be playing guitar style in an appearance at the Apollo theater in 1942 or 43!!

Our sample of extant African American string bands and banjoists is relatively narrow.  One could easily argue that the Gribble Lusk York band is the most recorded African American string band we have that was recorded when it was an active band performing for a real community.  When Lomax got to  Syd Hemphill & Co in 1942, their playing was mostly with the drum, band that Lomax also recorded and a band that had horns that Lomax did not record.  Both Mike Seeger and Bob Winans told me that Lucious Smith still had a few drums and horns around his house from that when they each visited Smith separately in the 1970s.

There have been lots of exaggerations about how much Joe Thompson played with the family band before WWII and he was very explicit when I talked to him that the string band thing was dead as viable entertainment in Mebane after he returned from the war in 1946 other than individual players playing at each other's houses.

Stu and others have documented how this was a really viable band playing for both Black and white people.  Linda Henry's research into the family and co,mmunity dynamics involve suggest that Gribble really worked hard at music because he had been disabled in some way during WWI.  Her research as well as how Stu described them suggest he was the real leader of the band and also played the fiddle well but preferred to lead the band from the banjo chair.

riginally posted by Dan Gellert

Who said Gribble was frailing? Not on any of the recordings I've heard, though it does sound kind of like index-lead 2-finger sometimes



It's been a long time since I tried to figure out what he was doing, and I never did get anywhere near to imitating it with any fluency, but....



My general take on his approach is:

Mostly finger-lead backward rolls. He may have hit a thumb-lead riff here and there, but may well not have. Possible he never even dropped the thumb off the 5th string, but he probably did sometimes.

itmitmit, ititmitm, mitmitmi tmitmtit .....

 

---

Dan Gellert - Posted - 03/05/2023:  19:57:57

quote:

---

Originally posted by writerrad

quote:

You will find people on the Internet saying that just because they assume African American banjo playing is all down picking,  Then some who assume all old time banjo picking before bluegrass was either 2 finger or frailing.  Lots of people do not know there is any other kind of old time playing other than frailing.

 

---

 

---

Yeah, I thought maybe we'd gotten past "3-finger banjo=bluegrass", but I reckon it takes a certain level of banjo fanaticism to even consider why it matters that it's BS. 

You brought back a long-forgotten memory of being backstage somewhere I can't now recall, with the show-headliner banjoist/singer who'd just finished his set with an Uncle Dave Macon song.  I said something to him about how few people seemed to recognize the high quality of Uncle Dave's playing, particularly his 3-finger picking.  The guy gave me a quizzical look, "Three-finger picking?  I thought he only played clawhammer!"....

writerrad - Posted - 03/06/2023:  05:29:57

Well that is a standard thing. Here again I return to Stu and the 46 trip. Stu went to Nashville in 46, perhaps without the others. He got to meet Uncle Dave, I think at the Hotel where Uncle Dave lived in Nashville. He said Macon was genuinely surprised that a young go getter--in1946 Stu looked like a movie star--was interested in his banjo playing at the level Stu was.

Macon did explain that arthritis had become a major problem in the late 1930s. He held out his hand. Often his right hand was frozen into what STu called "a perfect clawhammer claw". That had meant that the fairly complex 2 and 3 finger picking that was more prominent in Macon's 1920 and early 30s recordings receded into the background to clawhammer. Macon also abandoned using RBs which he had predominantly played since they were available and had Gibson make him three special open-back models of the RBs he played with dowel sticks instead of connecting Rods. I have played one that was in George Gruhn's collection 12 years ago, and it was a little bit handier than my Tubaphone.

Dobbler, his grandson has written a fine and moving biography of Uncle Dave that does not hide the fact that Macon had been around advanced show-business banjoists in his childhood and predominantly played fingerstyle banjo of both types when he tried to be a teenaged performer "The Dixie Dewdrop."

I guess the last 10-15 years of my own research starting when I tried to find out about Gus Cannon suggests that old time revivalists tend to underestimate the prevalence of three-finger banjo playing and of the larger world of show business and popular music banjo playing on an international basis, and on a national basis in the USA across the 19th and in the early 20th century and have these fantasies that banjo was purely a folk tradition. That banjoists like Macon tried to inhabit a character of a rural folk musician, rather than someone who came up with access to show business banjoists and world styles of banjo playing or Grandpa Jones a great Jimmie Rodgers style guitarist who never played the banjo until after he was on the Opry sought to inhabit a similar character speaks to this.

Florian Jean Albiez - Posted - 03/09/2023:  01:34:45

I love three finger playing in old time music and I have really loved Gribble's playing since I took up the banjo a few years ago. I am only just working on it myself after playing mostly two finger and down picking.



Zac Sokolow, one of my favorite current banjo players, plays in all kinds of ways, but often uses three fingers. He just recently put out a great video playing Altamont:



youtube.com/watch?v=r5L_jPMJxp...W1vbnQ%3D

ndlxs - Posted - 03/09/2023:  07:57:41

Zak certainly has the feel of Altamont; including the brush at the beginning of the low part.

writerrad - Posted - 03/09/2023:  09:31:44

Yes quite amazing close

writerrad - Posted - 03/09/2023:  09:33:55

quote:

Thanks Florian, 

Where are you in Germany?.  I am planning to be in Germany on the Mosel in Traben Trarbach  and Koblenz and from there down to Lucerne in May and June with a banjo, 

We will also be in Saxony in December!

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Originally posted by Florian Jean Albiez

I love three finger playing in old time music and I have really loved Gribble's playing since I took up the banjo a few years ago. I am only just working on it myself after playing mostly two finger and down picking.



Zac Sokolow, one of my favorite current banjo players, plays in all kinds of ways, but often uses three fingers. He just recently put out a great video playing Altamont:



youtube.com/watch?v=r5L_jPMJxp...W1vbnQ%3D

---

Florian Jean Albiez - Posted - 03/10/2023:  08:15:58

That's great, Tony. I'll send you a PM. I'd love to meet up, talk banjo and play.

cbcarlisle - Posted - 03/10/2023:  13:20:01

Stu Jamieson was a good friend and a great influence on my banjo playing, though I never attempted anything as complex as his styles. I was with him at a festival in South Central Los Angeles in the 1970s where he publicly offered to teach any young African-American musician everything he knew about Black banjo styles: it was a tragedy that no one took him up on that - and I know it pained him personally. We lost much with his passing - as with every Elder who cannot relay their tradition.