250gibson - Posted - 01/07/2023:  05:48:28

Key signature can give you some idea of key or mode. However it does nothing to determine them. It is really only used as a tool in musical notation.



Modes of a particular key = Ionian (also and more commonly called major), Dorian, Phrygian, Lydian, Mixolydian, Aeolian (also and more commonly called minor) and Locrian.



There are some others based on other scales rather than major and natural minor which yield Phrygian dominant, Lydian dominant, etc.



Keys of a particular mode =

C, F, Bb, Eb, Ab, Db, Gb/F#, B, E, A, D, G and their enharmonic equalivents.



Keys get their names from their tonic, however a key is more than this. It involves the harmonic functionality of the set of notes and chords contained within.

Edited by - 250gibson on 01/07/2023 06:00:11

250gibson - Posted - 01/07/2023:  05:54:53

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Originally posted by Tractor1

I asked why it is important and what light is shined by calling the notes given to us as being the domain of a scale or mode--it seems we don't really have an imparting of knowledge as to how it helps ---in the playing of the notes that are already there ---cool historic value for sure---but that seems to be the bottom line

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If everything is written then knowledge of any of this is moot, just play what's written. However knowledge of all of this is needed to write and or improvise/accompany parts that are not written. 

Tractor1 - Posted - 01/07/2023:  06:14:48

you can play any notes together--
harmonic functions arrived at by staying within a key still depend on chord relation to the current melody --more--so than the key imo--accidentals and scale tones not 1 -3-5 --bring in color--
scales or modes are the important starting point --but overly adherence to some moldy old mode would take the E out of salty dog or b out of dear old dixie imo

G Edward Porgie - Posted - 01/07/2023:  06:27:07

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Originally posted by 250gibson

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Originally posted by G Edward Porgie

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Originally posted by 250gibson

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Originally posted by G Edward Porgie

Please get rid of the idea that a "key" and a "mode" are the same thing. A tune is either in a mode or a key, not a mode and a key.

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You do need both. Using this tune again as an example. It is in Dorian mode and can be played in all 12 Keys. You need to know the key however to know which note is the tonic. Conversely you can’t say a tune is in the key of D without it also being in a particular mode. The D tells us the tonic, but we need to know which notes to make sharp or flat, etc. etc. 

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Bull. Read a theory book, and you'll find out a key is a key, and a mode is a mode. Either can start on any note, If it's Dorian, a decent musician will hear the sharps or flats, and where they belong. In Dorian, that would be a flat third and seventh. I defy you to find any key with those notes flatted. Like most everything in music, these things can overlap. Most music just happens to be Aeolian or Ionian, so those two modes have earned their own names and a specific set of rules. 

Maybe The two (mode and key) can be compared, but a comparison does not turn an apple into an orange.

 

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Mode and key are definitely not the same thing. I never said that. I was questioning your statement that a tune is either in a mode or a key. Not a mode and a key. 

What definition of key are you using, and or how do you perceive it where there can be an instance where a  piece of music can be in a key but not in a mode and vice versa (You say it can't be both). 

Using your example, if I were to determine that a particular piece of music is in the Dorian mode due to where the sharps and flats fall (Dorian = b3 and b7). If I were to start playing it and someone wanted to join in and sing, however they can't hit the high notes, common practice would be to change to a different key so the singer would be able to sing. You are not changing the mode, you are changing the key. No one would say let's change to a different mode, or let's drop the mode a step. 

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Changing key terminology is due largely to convention. In certain situations, this is okay, as would be calling out,"Let'l all drop this up/down a step."

However, saying "Dorian mode" is a "key" is not correct, can be confused by the inexperience of a newcomer.to mean D major or minor (Dorian does have an aural resemblance to a minor key) or simply won't know what to play. In my opinion, when teaching modes, it would be best to explain them as to where the half and whole steps occur. rather than aiming at a keyboard's white keys. (A mode can be built on a Bb, so that "white key"  thing doesn't work well.) My point is that to learn modes, one must also learn how they differ from a key. Thinking by the O.P. that his piece was in a key, I think shows that he thinks the two as the same, or that modes don't really exist.

If you disagree, fine. It is always possible terminology and conventions have changed since I left college., and it's also probable that you are aiming toward playing and I toward analyzing.  For me, Ionian and Aeolian became major and minor due to their prevalence, and a set of conventions was developed for them. Modes, being from an era before modern harmony was even a glint in a Renaissance eye--or ear--tend not to follow those rules.

Tractor1 - Posted - 01/07/2023:  06:32:46

as far as writing or playing together yeh we all need to know where the tempered scale is for starters-those are the likely safe places -but no need to ''not'' add any of the 11 tones when we like the sound imo
I suppose my fear is that young starters become overly immersed in restrictions that are over the top opinions
even the reel and jig type music books I have never give a reasoning to only use only certain chords --their magic is mostly in the shuffles- triplets-- ornamentation etc

banjoak - Posted - 01/07/2023:  09:42:48

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Originally posted by Tractor1

I asked why it is important and what light is shined by calling the notes given to us as being the domain of a scale or mode--it seems we don't really have an imparting of knowledge as to how it helps ---in the playing of the notes that are already there ---cool historic value for sure---but that seems to be the bottom line

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Many find it helps recognizing the structure, the wrap their mind around and/or frame the layout of notes. Similar to recognizing structure if time as meter/rhythm and phrasing of the tune; and where the ONE beat is. Many esp. find structure useful as top-down approach when playing by ear, and in quickly figuring out tunes.

To get away from all the semantics of what is or isn't a "key" or mode according to what a textbook says, and must be so... Two things many find useful to know;

1. The single pitch that acts as the tonal center, or tonic.

2. The other notes and how they structurally relate to that tonal center note as a set... which in turn gives overall sound qualities.

Many naturally find useful is to naming things. When needing to communicate with others, using same naming reference conventions. One of most common is using letter names as the fall on piano keyboard instrument and/or via Hz frequency like  440 Hz (give or take) = A; and names for the latter, those different sets of notes.

For example; E Dorian; or A Mixolydian; or B Aeolian...  describe both tonic 1. and 2. above. (for Major/Ionian the latter might often omitted and implied "it's in D", aka D Major). Though those all use the same notes, they have different structure and sonic qualities.

Edited by - banjoak on 01/07/2023 09:53:38

Tractor1 - Posted - 01/07/2023:  10:09:44

Thanks bjoak--could not figure the location of the'' tonic 1 and 2 above'' ---so googled for a refresher on the white key connection I learned long ago--anyway this looks like some good info --pertaining to your good info
trailjams.org/articles/modes/

banjoak - Posted - 01/07/2023:  11:21:38

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Originally posted by Tractor1

could not figure the location of the'' tonic 1 and 2 above'' ---

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Not sure what can't locate... but perhaps I didn't state that clearly, (didn't mean that there are 2 tonics)... maybe this would be clearer?

For example; E Dorian; or A Mixolydian; or B Aeolian...  respectively describe both: 

1. The single pitch that acts as the tonal center, or tonic. (such as single letter name "E")

2. The other notes and how they structurally relate to that tonal center note as a set... which in turn gives overall sound qualities. (such as mode name "Dorian")

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As far as your link, that's one way to think about it. 

IMO those can make it longer and more complex that what it really is; as well question what traditional modal music experience they are basing it on?

They tend to focus on scales and triad chord based; thru view of classic major scale/chords. (or just shifting the major scale/chords around)

Besides that often more melodic based... when some chording is added, those listed are not actually what commonly find. Notably the minor V (or v) in Dorian, Mixolydian and Aeolian; ar not that common... on the other hand the VII is common and often important (which fails to mention).