KatB - Posted - 10/22/2022:  17:42:56

Okay for starters, yes, I do understand that there is a difference between tuning and key. You can play any key out of any tuning. Got it. And I have a little understanding of modes, just a little though. (G modal is a mode, but which?)

And the more pragmatic question, the one I am most interested in:
Let's I'm playing Shady Grove, Cold Frosty Morn, or Cluck Old Hen, tuned gDGCD, the guitar would be playing in what key?
Strum Machine tells me I'm in G minor, but not really, right? Because it's modal.
(I did do a forum search, it was not so fruitful)

OldNavyGuy - Posted - 10/22/2022:  17:47:05

See this archived blog post -

banjohangout.org/blog/33320

jack_beuthin - Posted - 10/22/2022:  18:20:29

Quick answer.

G minor is technically the G Aeolian mode (i.e., minor = aeolian). The tunes you mentioned are in the Dorian mode, which is "minory" but not all the way there.

If I was playing guitar for any G Dorian tune, G and F would be my main chords. I would reserve the G minor chord for a tune that is truly in G minor. Having said that, some guitar players might use the G minor chord, depending on their sensibility for proper chords for Old Time music. A topic for spirited discussions.

And as an aside, the major mode in any key is technically the Ionian mode.

jack_beuthin - Posted - 10/22/2022:  21:15:41

Also, I have a couple videos on YouTube about modes and tunings that you might find useful.



"Open G versus Sawmill G tuning - Which to use, and why?" youtu.be/3Ixedsnd44Y

"The Modal Versatility of the Double C tuning" youtu.be/ZozqXWiy_lU

banjoak - Posted - 10/23/2022:  06:19:56

The key, referring to the tonal center or home is G. 

The mode is the layout of the other notes, how they relate to the tonal center.  Aeloian, Dorian, are what most associated with that tuning; but some use it for Mixolydian.

Ira Gitlin - Posted - 10/23/2022:  06:53:35

It depends on the tune, and on your tolerance for the major/minor blurring that's a part of the blues and blues-influenced music. Personally, I'd accompany "Shady Grove' with a minor progression. "Cold Frosty Morning"? That's minor for the A part and major for the B part (definitely a sophisticated, post-old-time approach). "Cluck Old Hen"? Probably major.



As I wrote a few years ago, "The musicians who established bluegrass in the 1940s and 1950s belonged to the first generation of Americans to grow up with the phonograph and the radio. They were able to hear a much wider variety of music than ever before—ragtime and jazz, classical symphonies and opera, Tin Pan Alley popular songs—and their music reflects this. But they were also heirs to vernacular musical traditions that stretched back centuries. They would have been intimately familiar with unaccompanied fiddle tunes and ballads, folk blues, old minstrel and parlor songs that had been absorbed into their folk traditions, and various types of religious music such as Sacred Harp singing. Some of this traditional repertoire would have been truly modal, conceived purely as melody, without any of the harmony that present-day listeners might imagine they hear in it....And although the architects of bluegrass were a generation younger than Grayson and Whitter, and more conversant with functional harmony than their parents and grandparents may have been, they nevertheless tolerated a more casual association between vocals and accompanying chords than most present-day musicians do."



Listen to this, from a couple of pre-bluegrass guys (the aforementioned Grayson and Whitter) who definitely didn't think of chords the way we do: youtube.com/watch?v=L0y3quSHDoI.

Edited by - Ira Gitlin on 10/23/2022 07:08:07

KatB - Posted - 10/23/2022:  11:17:55

Thank you, what great answers!

janolov - Posted - 10/24/2022:  00:47:16

Modes and chords are often difficult to combine.

Most of the modal songs and tunes were composed or developed without chord accompaniment (that was before the guitar became popular during the string band era 100 years ago). Songs in the Dorian mode (Pretty Polly, Cold Frosty Morning, Shady Grove, Cluck Old Hen and so on) were played by fiddle, banjo and voice and there were no real chords, rather drones. When the guitar became included in the Mountain Music (or whatever you call it) the guitarists found out chords that could work to the tunes. In G Dorian mode (which is based on the F major scale) the most common chords seems to be Gm and F and sometimes also a C.  Sometimes also a Bb and Dm can be heard. A dilemma is that the banjo, in sawmill tuning, will sound the open second string (C) if brushing the strings when the guitar plays a Gm which will give an extra touch (or some may say noise). In that sense Gm tuning would be more appropriate to use instead of sawmill tuning when playing in G Dorian mode.

To make it more difficult, some of these songs and tunes occur both in major key (which is the same as Ionian mode) and in Dorian mode, for example Pretty Polly, and Cluck Old hen,and based on the usual G major scale and played in standard G tuning on the banjo. 

To make still more difficult, there is still another phenomena involved: In old traditional music there are sometimes notes outside the conventional diatonic scale or between two notes in the diatonic scale, most common are the neutral third (which is somewhere between Bb and B or the 3rd and 4rth fret on the G string) and the neutral seventh (between F and F#). These are also called blue notes, but they existed actually in old European traditional music before the Blues was developed). When musicologist began to transcribe traditional music they got problem with these neutral intervals and sometimes interpreted the song/tune as Dorian mode and sometimes as G major key. I think that is why some of the songs can be heard both in Dorian mode and in major key. On fretless banjo and fiddle these neutral intervals are easy to play, on fretted instruments they can be played by choking or bending the string, and on piano they are impossible to play.

If find this discussion about modes and tunings and chords difficult - don't bother to much, just play the banjo as you like and use the chords that you find nice.

Jerry Hatrick - Posted - 10/24/2022:  01:33:22

That’s a good explanation, Jan, and how I understand it all too. Too many of us only approach songs and tunes by reference to chord patterns, expecting any melody to be shoehorned into standard major or minor progressions (Ionian or Aeolian). I’ve always seen the song Rain and Snow as major (with flat seventh), but one band I play with insist on playing it was minor - am I right to argue it’s major using say G and F chords?
Sorry about the thread creep here.

jack_beuthin - Posted - 10/24/2022:  09:41:11

Country music: "Three chords and the truth."



Old Time music: "Well......"

Noodlin - Posted - 11/22/2022:  23:43:22

quote:

---

Originally posted by Jerry Hatrick

That’s a good explanation, Jan, and how I understand it all too. Too many of us only approach songs and tunes by reference to chord patterns, expecting any melody to be shoehorned into standard major or minor progressions (Ionian or Aeolian). I’ve always seen the song Rain and Snow as major (with flat seventh), but one band I play with insist on playing it was minor - am I right to argue it’s major using say G and F chords?

Sorry about the thread creep here.

---

"Major with a flat 7th" is the Mixolydian mode :-). All the chords would be the same as Ionian (Major) except the 7 chord is the bVII chord (F in G Mixolydian) as opposed to the diminished chord (F#dim in G major). And yeah, in G Mixolydian, the G chord and F chord generally receive a lot of emphasis in those tunes (mix tunes generally highlight that flattened 7th), in much the same way that G, C and D get a lot of play in G major. 

Edited by - Noodlin on 11/22/2022 23:49:32

Jerry Hatrick - Posted - 11/23/2022:  00:47:41

Thanks for that, Adam. That’s how I’ve always understood it, but friends like to accompany it with alternating Gm and F chords, probably misled by those websites with postings by guitar players not really familiar enough with the genre to contribute. Let’s face it, no one plays Old Joe Clark or Little Maggie in a minor key surely…

Ira Gitlin - Posted - 11/23/2022:  07:09:57

As for "Shady Grove", I've heard some versions where the menu of notes used in the melody is G, A, C, D, and F--no B or Bb! That would make the melody, by itself, neither major nor minor. That ambiguous melody can will be perceived as major or minor depending on what chords accompany it.

KatB - Posted - 11/23/2022:  08:14:02

quote:Originally posted by janolovModes and chords are often difficult to combine.

Most of the modal songs and tunes were composed or developed without chord accompaniment (that was before the guitar became popular during the string band era 100 years ago). Songs in the Dorian mode (Pretty Polly, Cold Frosty Morning, Shady Grove, Cluck Old Hen and so on) were played by fiddle, banjo and voice and there were no real chords, rather drones. When the guitar became included in the Mountain Music (or whatever you call it) the guitarists found out chords that could work to the tunes. In G Dorian mode (which is based on the F major scale) the most common chords seems to be Gm and F and sometimes also a C. Sometimes also a Bb and Dm can be heard. A dilemma is that the banjo, in sawmill tuning, will sound the open second string (C) if brushing the strings when the guitar plays a Gm which will give an extra touch (or some may say noise). In that sense Gm tuning would be more appropriate to use instead of sawmill tuning when playing in G Dorian mode.

To make it more difficult, some of these songs and tunes occur both in major key (which is the same as Ionian mode) and in Dorian mode, for example Pretty Polly, and Cluck Old hen,and based on the usual G major scale and played in standard G tuning on the banjo.

To make still more difficult, there is still another phenomena involved: In old traditional music there are sometimes notes outside the conventional diatonic scale or between two notes in the diatonic scale, most common are the neutral third (which is somewhere between Bb and B or the 3rd and 4rth fret on the G string) and the neutral seventh (between F and F#). These are also called blue notes, but they existed actually in old European traditional music before the Blues was developed). When musicologist began to transcribe traditional music they got problem with these neutral intervals and sometimes interpreted the song/tune as Dorian mode and sometimes as G major key. I think that is why some of the songs can be heard both in Dorian mode and in major key. On fretless banjo and fiddle these neutral intervals are easy to play, on fretted instruments they can be played by choking or bending the string, and on piano they are impossible to play.

If find this discussion about modes and tunings and chords difficult - don't bother to much, just play the banjo as you like and use the chords that you find nice.

^Wow great explanation janolov
My only instrument before this was classical violin, so I don’t think in chords. I find the music theory fascinating
And I like thread drift too, it’s just bonus information

Noodlin - Posted - 11/23/2022:  14:15:33

quote:

---

Originally posted by Jerry Hatrick

Thanks for that, Adam. That’s how I’ve always understood it, but friends like to accompany it with alternating Gm and F chords, probably misled by those websites with postings by guitar players not really familiar enough with the genre to contribute. Let’s face it, no one plays Old Joe Clark or Little Maggie in a minor key surely…

---

Haha, surely. 

 

To my ear, when there's ambiguity or subjectivity in play, typically playing a major accompaniment to a minor melody sounds great (bluesy!).  A major melody against a minor accompaniment usually just clashes to my ear. 

R.D. Lunceford - Posted - 12/02/2022:  22:04:13

Sometimes I think the way Irish guitar players approach the tunes would be more effective. They use DADGAD tuning among others, and often drop the 3rd making the chord neither major nor minor. 

KatB - Posted - 12/02/2022:  22:28:43

I like that “neither major nor minor” approach R.D. Lunceford
But it’s just not meaningful to the guitar player who wants to know what chord ;)

banjoak - Posted - 12/03/2022:  03:25:41

Depends on the guitar player. Certainly, anything "modal" might seem meaningless and confusing to someone limited learning; all music is based on functional harmony triad chord, descended from Western European Art music.

The neither major nor minor accompaniment isn't limited to Irish music, nor need special tuning like DADGAD. I use this quite a bit with OT, just standard tuning. As well, lots of old blues based rock used what they call power chords, dyad stack of root/fifth and octaves. Allows the melody and lead guitar solo to define nuance, not be limited to 12 tone equal tempered major/minor. With that, many guitar players calling them "power chords" is not meaningless, something they might understand. 

mmuussiiccaall - Posted - 12/03/2022:  05:34:28

quote:

---

Originally posted by KatB

I like that “neither major nor minor” approach R.D. Lunceford

But it’s just not meaningful to the guitar player who wants to know what chord ;)

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tell 'em to play G5

WVDreamin - Posted - 12/03/2022:  13:35:12

quote:

---

Originally posted by mmuussiiccaall

quote:

---

Originally posted by KatB

I like that “neither major nor minor” approach R.D. Lunceford

But it’s just not meaningful to the guitar player who wants to know what chord ;)

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tell 'em to play G5

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Lol, as if most guitar players would know what that is, however correct you may be. 

R.D. Lunceford - Posted - 12/03/2022:  18:05:21

KatB

That would be a "G' chord without the third. Written G3 with a line through the 3.
It is often the third that defines the chord; for example,
GBD = G major, GBbD = G minor. Drop the 3rd, i.e. B or Bb
and you no longer have a major or minor chord, just a neutral G chord. All of this can
be done out of standard guitar tuning as well (EADGBE).

Same principle with other chords.

banjoak - Posted - 12/04/2022:  09:12:14

quote:

---

Originally posted by WVDreamin

quote:

---

Originally posted by mmuussiiccaall

quote:

---

Originally posted by KatB

I like that “neither major nor minor” approach R.D. Lunceford

But it’s just not meaningful to the guitar player who wants to know what chord ;)

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tell 'em to play G5

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Lol, as if most guitar players would know what that is, however correct you may be. 

---

Agree, while G5 is technically correct, most probably don't have the depth of music theory experience where that would come up; perhaps meaningful to jazz guitar players (many get into complex MT, number after.

That's why I mentioned "power chord" that many (esp electric guitar) folks get; but also in trad world, alternatively might hear "G neutral" or use simple descriptive; "G, no third"... as with other chords literally describing not worried about correct terminology.

Of course, in other cases (for example folk/cowboy chord background); the name or literal description isn't the issue, as much as the concept.

banjola1 - Posted - 12/18/2022:  21:34:47

I like the term "sawmill." I've also heard it called "wood-pile modal."

I organize harmony around scales. If I have G7 chord, I'll play a C major scale started on any of the tones of a G7 chord: (G-B-D-F). For C7, I'll play an F major scale started from any chord tone of a C7 chord (C-E-G-Bb). And for D7, a G major scale from any chord tone of D7 (D-F#-A-C).

To get a bluesy modal  sound, I'll use a Bb Pentatonic scale started on G. It can be played over all the chord changes of basic G 12-bar dominant chord blues, (G7,C7,D7). Here's a Bb Major Pentatonic Scale:

Bb - C - D - F - G

If you start it on a G note you get a minor sonority for G blues:

G - Bb - C - D - F.

As was previously referenced, it feels like the Dorian mode of F or the II minor. The II minor also hints at a C7 chord change. 

If you add a "blue note," (a half-step Db note between C and D) you have a basic version of a blues scale for G:

G - Bb - C - (Db) - D - F

All of this crosses over neatly over into bluegrass. It's a Bb/Gm fingering in the first three to five frets for banjo tunes in standard G tuning. Ralph Stanley's "Clinch Mountain Back-Step" comes to mind. It's that G major/minor "happy-sad" feel. It's like a temporary half step below a G7 chord only to slide back up to create harmonic tension.

Free videos:

Five G Pentatonic Positions. An introduction to the basic G Major fingerings up the neck:

https://patcloud.com/five-pentatonic-positions/

A Pentatonic Blues video In G.

This video is originally material from an online seminar in 2010 for the Banjo Hangout. It has an mp3 guitar back-up play along file.

https://patcloud.com/pentatonic-blues-in-G/

Drop on by - it's all free.

Merry Christmas!

patcloud.com

Edited by - banjola1 on 12/18/2022 21:45:55

G Edward Porgie - Posted - 12/19/2022:  14:32:20

When are people going to learn that a Tuning is not the same as a Key or a Mode

One can play any song in any tuning. (one can certainly play a Bb in either "Sawmill" or standard "G tuning) .Non-typical tunings and so-called modal tunings just make some songs easier to play.

mmuussiiccaall - Posted - 12/19/2022:  14:42:38

quote:

---

Originally posted by banjoak

quote:

---

Originally posted by WVDreamin

quote:

---

Originally posted by mmuussiiccaall

quote:

---

Originally posted by KatB

I like that “neither major nor minor” approach R.D. Lunceford

But it’s just not meaningful to the guitar player who wants to know what chord ;)

---

tell 'em to play G5

---

Lol, as if most guitar players would know what that is, however correct you may be. 

---

Agree, while G5 is technically correct, most probably don't have the depth of music theory experience where that would come up; perhaps meaningful to jazz guitar players (many get into complex MT, number after.

That's why I mentioned "power chord" that many (esp electric guitar) folks get; but also in trad world, alternatively might hear "G neutral" or use simple descriptive; "G, no third"... as with other chords literally describing not worried about correct terminology.

Of course, in other cases (for example folk/cowboy chord background); the name or literal description isn't the issue, as much as the concept.

---

This is what I had in mind

G5

 

Ira Gitlin - Posted - 12/19/2022:  15:10:17

quote:

---

Originally posted by G Edward Porgie

When are people going to learn that a Tuning is not the same as a Key or a Mode

One can play any song in any tuning. (one can certainly play a Bb in either "Sawmill" or standard "G tuning) .Non-typical tunings and so-called modal tunings just make some songs easier to play.

---

The first sentences of the OP: "Okay for starters, yes, I do understand that there is a difference between tuning and key. You can play any key out of any tuning. Got it."

G Edward Porgie - Posted - 12/19/2022:  19:33:21

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ira Gitlin

quote:

---

Originally posted by G Edward Porgie

When are people going to learn that a Tuning is not the same as a Key or a Mode

One can play any song in any tuning. (one can certainly play a Bb in either "Sawmill" or standard "G tuning) .Non-typical tunings and so-called modal tunings just make some songs easier to play.

---

The first sentences of the OP: "Okay for starters, yes, I do understand that there is a difference between tuning and key. You can play any key out of any tuning. Got it."

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If he really knows, he should not have to ask what key sawmill is.