DWFII - Posted - 06/13/2022:  21:10:26

i should know this...I may have known it once upon a time...but I don't know it now:

What does a quarter note symbol followed by and 'equal' sign followed by 185 mean?

janolov - Posted - 06/13/2022:  23:23:05

It is the tempo. quarter note = 185 means that you shall play at a speed of 185 quarter notes per minute. If you have a metronome you can adjust the metronome to give 185 sounds (clicks) per minute. 

Greg Denton - Posted - 06/14/2022:  03:08:59

youtube.com/watch?v=ZFsc8QuMBsA

DWFII - Posted - 06/14/2022:  05:34:30

quote:

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Originally posted by janolov

It is the tempo. quarter note = 185 means that you shall play at a speed of 185 quarter notes per minute. If you have a metronome you can adjust the metronome to give 185 sounds (clicks) per minute. 

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Thanks...that's what I thought. But I'm using a metronome and 185 seems almost impossibly fast--3 quarter notes per second. I'm playing most of my exercises at 80 beats per minute and while I could go a lot faster, I can't imagine a series of six eighth notes at 185 much less 240 (top end got my metronome).

Most tabs I've seen, esp. in books on how to learn banjo, don't include the time.

Anyway thanks again. Maybe some day I'll get there... if I even want to.

Edited by - DWFII on 06/14/2022 05:35:41

250gibson - Posted - 06/14/2022:  05:51:04

quote:

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Originally posted by DWFII

quote:

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Originally posted by janolov

It is the tempo. quarter note = 185 means that you shall play at a speed of 185 quarter notes per minute. If you have a metronome you can adjust the metronome to give 185 sounds (clicks) per minute. 

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Thanks...that's what I thought. But I'm using a metronome and 185 seems almost impossibly fast--3 quarter notes per second. I'm playing most of my exercises at 80 beats per minute and while I could go a lot faster, I can't imagine a series of six eighth notes at 185 much less 240 (top end got my metronome).

Most tabs I've seen, esp. in books on how to learn banjo, don't include the time.

Anyway thanks again. Maybe some day I'll get there... if I even want to.

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It also depends on what the time signature is. If it is 2/2 then the beats per min would be half that, as a quarter note in 2/2 is equalivent to an 1/8 note in 4/4. 

RB3 - Posted - 06/14/2022:  05:52:45

The tempo is also a function of the time signature of the music you're playing. If you're playing in 4/4 time, 185 beats/minute is not a very fast tempo for Bluegrass. If you're playing in 2/4 time, 185 beats/minute is smokin' it.

Ira Gitlin - Posted - 06/14/2022:  05:56:02

Yeah, 185 is really "smoking it" in 2/4. This is around 190 in 2/4 time: youtube.com/watch?v=lNRFoFjphOk.



 

Edited by - Ira Gitlin on 06/14/2022 05:57:04

RB3 - Posted - 06/14/2022:  06:30:50

I believe that Earl Scruggs played his classic version of Foggy Mountain Breakdown at a fast tempo of about 160 bpm, and of course his instruction book has the tune tabbed in 2/4 time. That's generally considered to be the appropriate tempo for the song. If you played from one of the many tablatures of Foggy Mountain Breakdown that are tabbed in 4/4 time, and you play it at a tempo of 160 bpm, that would be a half fast version of the song.

DWFII - Posted - 06/14/2022:  06:30:53

quote:

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Originally posted by Ira Gitlin

Yeah, 185 is really "smoking it" in 2/4. This is around 190 in 2/4 time: youtube.com/watch?v=lNRFoFjphOk.



 

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Dern! I couldn't pronounce the words that fast. xD

janolov - Posted - 06/14/2022:  06:48:42

quote:

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Originally posted by DWFII

quote:

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Originally posted by Ira Gitlin

Yeah, 185 is really "smoking it" in 2/4. This is around 190 in 2/4 time: youtube.com/watch?v=lNRFoFjphOk.



 

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Dern! I couldn't pronounce the words that fast. xD

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But remember, if the song is in 4/4 it is half of that tempo.

I think a lot of Old-Time tunes (clawhammer, 2FIL, 2FTL) often are played about 220 - 240 quarter notes per minute in 4/4 (there are slower and there are faster).

When you start learning to play it is better to try to play slow and gain a steady slow rhythm, than to try to play fast and miss the rhythm. Then you will find that you will get higher tempo by the time. 

DWFII - Posted - 06/14/2022:  08:07:53

quote:

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Originally posted by janolov

But remember, if the song is in 4/4 it is half of that tempo.

I think a lot of Old-Time tunes (clawhammer, 2FIL, 2FTL) often are played about 220 - 240 quarter notes per minute in 4/4 (there are slower and there are faster).

When you start learning to play it is better to try to play slow and gain a steady slow rhythm, than to try to play fast and miss the rhythm. Then you will find that you will get higher tempo by the time. 

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I'm not sure how that works. If the tempo is 80bpm and you're playing a quarter noted on every "tick and tock"..... how is the 4/4 tempo half?

250gibson - Posted - 06/14/2022:  08:26:59

quote:

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Originally posted by RB3

The tempo is also a function of the time signature of the music you're playing. If you're playing in 4/4 time, 185 beats/minute is not a very fast tempo for Bluegrass. If you're playing in 2/4 time, 185 beats/minute is smokin' it.

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2/4 and 4/4 have the exact same speed/tempo.  What changes is the amount of beats per measure. In 4/4 and in 2/4, 185=quarter note in either would be the same speed and same beats per min as quarter note gets one beat. In 2/2 185=quarter note, actually means 1/8 notes per min. Bests per minute would be half as the half note gets one best. 

janolov - Posted - 06/14/2022:  08:32:09

Beats per minute is not the same as quarter notes per minute.

In 2/4 there are two beats per measure and a beat is 1/4 note long (usually 4 1/16 notes. What we call 4/4 should often be 2/2 with a beat 1/2 note long.

My recommendation: don't go to deep into this question, it is better to be playing and listen to the music. 

RB3 - Posted - 06/14/2022:  09:08:15

DWFII:



Again, let's consider Foggy Mountain Breakdown as an example. The song's fundamental musical phrase consists of 16 measures. If you notate the song with a 4/4 time signature, you will have 4 beats per measure, which results in a total of 64 beats for the complete song. If you notate the song with a 2/4 time signature, you will have 2 beats per measure, which results in a total of 32 beats for the complete song. So, if you use the same beats/minute rate for both time signature notation methods, playing the song with a 4/4 time signature will take twice as much time as it would take to play it with a 2/4 time signature.

A beats/minute rate alone does not define tempo.  To define the tempo, the beats/minute rate must be considered with respect to the time signature and the notation method.

Edited by - RB3 on 06/14/2022 09:21:55

DWFII - Posted - 06/14/2022:  09:15:34

quote:

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Originally posted by janolov

My recommendation: don't go to deep into this question, it is better to be playing and listen to the music. 

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I like what you're saying but it's a conundrum--I've always been told/thought that music was the most 'mathematical' of the Arts. But when it comes to the banjo, a lot of the advice  (and objective evidence) points to the "learn to play by ear" and "no musical training necessary" mode. Which suits me fine on one hand--less rules and bothers me on the other less guidance. Esp. for a 76 year old non-musician trying to learn a completely new thing.

Not complaining, just trying to find a happy balance and get along.                                                       

Edited by - DWFII on 06/14/2022 09:17:07

sziegler3 - Posted - 06/14/2022:  09:20:02

I could get some of my middle school students to explain this, since they understand it better than banjo players who have been playing for decades.

There is NO excuse for not understanding something as basic as time signatures and beats per minute. Even if you're a beginner, it's pretty fundamental for every musician I know.

And banjo is the only instrument I know of whose players just can't seem to understand any of this. Anyway, I've wasted enough of my time with this topic and this website.

250gibson - Posted - 06/14/2022:  09:42:16

quote:

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Originally posted by RB3

DWFII:



Again, let's consider Foggy Mountain Breakdown as an example. The song's fundamental musical phrase consists of 16 measures. If you notate the song with a 4/4 time signature, you will have 4 beats per measure, which results in a total of 64 beats for the complete song. If you notate the song with a 2/4 time signature, you will have 2 beats per measure, which results in a total of 32 beats for the complete song. So, if you use the same beats/minute rate for both time signature notation methods, playing the song with a 4/4 time signature will take twice as much time as it would take to play it with a 2/4 time signature.

A beats/minute rate alone does not define tempo.  To define the tempo, the beats/minute rate must be considered with respect to the time signature and the notation method.

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This is not how it works. If the song is in 4/4 and has 16 measures, there will be 4 beats per measure for a total of 64 beats.  However the same song in 2/4 will have 32 measures with 2 beats each for still a total of 64 beats. Using the same beats per minute rate, the quarter note will have the same duration and  the song will sound the exact same (maybe different accents on beats if you want to get technical)  and last the same amount of time. 

RB3 - Posted - 06/14/2022:  10:23:50

250gibson:

If you take a look at the tablatures of Foggy Mountain Breakdown in the BHO archive, you'll notice that they have a 4/4 time signatures and they have 16 measures that represent the fundamental musical phrase that defines the song. If you then look at the tablature for the song in the Earl Scruggs instruction book, you'll notice that it has a time signature of 2/4 and it also has 16 measures that represent the fundamental musical phrase that defines the song.

I think you need to re-think your understanding of this.

250gibson - Posted - 06/14/2022:  10:41:55

quote:

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Originally posted by RB3

250gibson:



If you take a look at the tablatures of Foggy Mountain Breakdown in the BHO archive, you'll notice that they have a 4/4 time signatures and they have 16 measures that represent the fundamental musical phrase that defines the song. If you then look at the tablature for the song in the Earl Scruggs instruction book, you'll notice that it has a time signature of 2/4 and it also has 16 measures that represent the fundamental musical phrase that defines the song.



I think you need to re-think your understanding of this.

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The tabs are in eighth notes and the Scruggs book is in 16th notes. That is what makes the tab play 1/2 as fast as the notation version at the same bpm.  It has nothing do do with time signature. You can take the tabbed version and make it 2/4 and it will still be half as fast at the same bpm because it uses eighth notes not sixteenth.   

My my understanding is fine. All changing the top number in the time sig does is changes the amount of beats per measure. It doesn’t change bpm or note durations.  If you take the same set of notes, using the same durations and the same bpm, 2/4 and 4/4 will sound exactly the same.  2/2 using new same set of notes, using the same set of durations will be twice as fast at the same bpm.  

The tabs using 1/8 notes should actually be 2/2 to keep the bpm realistic.

Edited by - 250gibson on 06/14/2022 10:55:37

janolov - Posted - 06/14/2022:  10:46:45

2/4 means there is two beats 1/4 note long in each measure.
4/4 means there is four beats 1/4 note long in each measure.
2/2 means there is two beats 1/2 note long in each measure.

So, theoretically the FMB tabs in BHO tab archive in 4/4 is not equivalent to 2/4 tabs in Earl's book. The tabs in the tab archive should rather be in 2/2 I think. But the question is "what is a beat"? I think people interpret "beats" different, and interpret time signatures different.

Texasbanjo - Posted - 06/14/2022:  11:27:00

I wouldn't worry about speed or beats per minute right now. Just learn to listen and hear the beat and keep in time with it. To me, that's more important than being able to understand what each time signature is or how much time each beat takes.

My advice: use 4/4 time because it's the easiest to understand right now. One quarter note gets one beat. One 8th note gets half a beat. Usually, that's all you need to know as a beginner.

After you get out of the beginner stage and into an intermediate or advanced stage, then you can worry about all that other stuff. Get the basics under your belt first.

Some of the best musicians I ever heard don't know a quarter note from a G note but they keep time and tempo and always sound fantastic.

250gibson - Posted - 06/14/2022:  11:32:46

Using foggy mountain breakdown as an example again. It is a popular enough song that there are versions out their transcribed by non banjo people. All are either in 2/2 using eighth notes or 2/4 using sixteenth notes, and will sound the same at the same bpm. I don’t know why bluegrass banjo people tab in eighth note and 4/4 with a sky high suggested bpm.

DWFII - Posted - 06/14/2022:  11:50:04

I hear that practicing with a metronome set at 80-90bpm is a good idea. I like it as it gives me a consistent tempo.

But, I am an old dog and probably dense as a midsummer beefsteak, so this discussion made me think again and I have to ask...if I'm playing to a metronome set at 90bpm,  is the 'beat' on every tick (or tock) or every other?

Ira Gitlin - Posted - 06/14/2022:  12:13:33

For those who find this all murky, never mind beats per minute, quarter notes vs. half notes, and all of that. Just ask yourself, "How many rolling notes per minute?"

janolov - Posted - 06/14/2022:  12:54:37

If you play 2-finger index lead, one "roll" is index-x-index-thumb (where x is hammer on, pulling offf, drop thumb or nothing), or bum-di-ty, and if you put the metronome on 90 BPM you shall play 90 rolls per minutes or 90 bum-di-ties per minut.

Texasbanjo - Posted - 06/14/2022:  14:11:55

quote:

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Originally posted by DWFII

I hear that practicing with a metronome set at 80-90bpm is a good idea. I like it as it gives me a consistent tempo.

But, I am an old dog and probably dense as a midsummer beefsteak, so this discussion made me think again and I have to ask...if I'm playing to a metronome set at 90bpm,  is the 'beat' on every tick (or tock) or every other?

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A beat is a beat is a beat.  When I was teaching, I taught my students to play two notes to each tick or tock.  That would get them playing 8th notes.  It's a good way to learn how to play rolls and play them evenly.  You may have to slow down the metronome at first until you get used to it but you can gradually increase the bpm as you get used to the rhythm.   It doesn't matter what speed you set the metronome, as long as  you can keep up with it. 

When you get out of the beginner stage, then you can worry more about quarter notes, 8th notes, rests and so forth.  Right now you just need to get used to playing WITH the beat, whatever it is and however fast or slow you need to go.