lature - Posted - 03/13/2022:  08:47:15

To get all the notes of a piano/guitar/banjo in tune requires a compromise - almost every note has to be a little out of tune, some more than others. This is the only way to get every chord in every key to sound good.

This means that your banjo will be slightly out of tune even when it's tuned perfectly with an electronic tuner.

In G tuning (g D G B D) the notes at the 5th and 7th frets will be almost perfect. However the 2nd string (B) will be (and needs to be) a little sharp. That's why tuning the B string is so hard. Getting it right is actually getting it wrong. So avoid strum tuning the B string to get it perfectly in tune with the open G chord. Rather, push down on the 3rd fret (D note) and get that note perfect. This will leave your B string a little sharp but all the other notes on that string will be correct. And the 2-3 hammer will sound great.

The A and A# on the G string (3rd) will be a little flat when your banjo is perfectly in tune. There has been a lot of discussion among banjo players on the 2-3 slide/hammer on the 3rd string. Most people now agree that Mr. Mills and Mr. Crowe bend the slide/hammer a little. The bend pushes the A and A# into tune. However, getting the right amount of bend is really hard to do.

The A note is about 10 cents flat. The A# note is about 15 cents flat. The B note is about 15 cents sharp.

banjopaolo - Posted - 03/13/2022:  08:55:35

If you want to solve this problem you must play a fretless banjo!
Fretless instruments allow you to compensate every note with your fingers as we violinists know....

Emiel - Posted - 03/13/2022:  09:23:35

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Originally posted by lature

So avoid strum tuning the B string to get it perfectly in tune with the open G chord. Rather, push down on the 3rd fret (D note) and get that note perfect. This will leave your B string a little sharp but all the other notes on that string will be correct. 

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This is true, this is how I always tune the 2nd string. 

Old Hickory - Posted - 03/13/2022:  09:37:12

Straight frets are a compromise. Twelve-tone equal temperament is a compromise. The issue you describe applies to all fretted instruments. Over the years, we've learned to accept the slight out-of-tuneness as in-tune.

I think the people most bothered by it are those with perfect pitch.

Anyway, in his "Killer Tone" setup video, Steve Huber says and demonstrates that when he sets his bridge for intonation, after getting the octaves right he tests the highest G-B combination at 20-21 on 2nd and 1st strings and adjusts the bridge to sweeten their sound. His reasoning is with that two-note partial sounding the best, the rest of the neck will be close enough. I believe he's right.

And, yes, top pros bend the 3rd string during the 2-3 slide. Earl Scruggs did it first. J.D. probably got it from listening or talking to Earl.

TN Time - Posted - 03/13/2022:  10:31:45

A banjo spends half his time tuning and the other half playing out of tune.
Robert

banjered - Posted - 03/13/2022:  11:24:52

"What does a properly tuned banjo sound like?"

"Dunno! It's never been done before."

banjered

G Edward Porgie - Posted - 03/13/2022:  11:24:58

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Originally posted by TN Time

A banjo spends half his time tuning and the other half playing out of tune.

Robert

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AN old and only partly true stereotype. Tuning a banjo is decidedly different than tuning other instruments. for one thing, There is more than one accepted tuning, and when the ensemble changes keys, the banjo player many times needs to adjust his tuning in order to play tune-appropriate licks, or must use a capo, which also requires some tuning adjustment. There is also a non-fixed bridge, which can move, and a very thin soundboard 9a sheet of skin or plastic, whose response can change more than the heavier guitar top when temperatures change.  While it may be true that the average player knows little about tempered scales and fret layouts for best intonation, I don't believe his abilities are any worse than, say, a guitar player (I know a very good guitarist who can't tune without major help, and I don't think I've ever encountered a mandolin that was tuned perfectly (I think that's part of the mandolin sound and thus is expected).

Maybe it's just a joke, like all those about toothless hillbillies plucking away, but it is, nevertheless, somewhat demeaning.

banjo_brad - Posted - 03/13/2022:  12:10:08

When I took a classical guitar class in college, the instructor had a guitar with interchangable fretboards. Tempers and such. With half-frets and moved frets it was impossible for me to even attempt to play it when he offered.

banjoy - Posted - 03/13/2022:  12:16:56

It's not just fretted instruments. All string instruments, as I understand, build in tuning compromises all the way up the ladder. Pianos immediately popping to mind.



There are some fascinating videos on YouTube that (attempt to) demonstrate equal temperament vs just intonation vs pythagorean tuning, etc etc. Then there all those semi-frets or weird angled frets on guitars, more innovations on ... just trying to play in tune.



(one example, there are plenty out there)

truetemperament.com/

Edited by - banjoy on 03/13/2022 12:22:40

TN Time - Posted - 03/13/2022:  14:51:23

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Originally posted by TN Time

A banjo player spends half his time tuning and the other half playing out of tune.

Robert

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Ira Gitlin - Posted - 03/13/2022:  16:04:31

quote:

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Originally posted by TN Time

quote:

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Originally posted by TN Time

A banjo player spends half his time tuning and the other half playing out of tune.

Robert

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IIRC, that's actually a recycled lute joke from the 17th century.



;^)

Meles_Meles - Posted - 03/13/2022:  19:21:13

The way I compensate for the few cents difference in tuning is a matter of technique. Because the frets are raised above the wooden surface of the fretboard (although not as much as on, say, a sitar), I play most notes with my finger pressing down about halfway between frets, and then when I want to add a few cents by rolling my fretting finger toward the higher-pitched fret. The extra string tension generated by stretching the string when the finger pulls down when closer to the fret will raise the pitch slightly. The more one crowds the fret, the greater the difference in pitch.

TN Time - Posted - 03/13/2022:  21:33:39

quote:

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Originally posted by TN Time

A banjo player spends half his time tuning and the other half playing out of tune.

Robert

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TN Time - Posted - 03/13/2022:  21:44:01

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Originally posted by TN Time

quote:

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Originally posted by TN Time

A banjo player spends half his time tuning and the other half playing out of tune.

Robert

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I keep editing and then the post just repeats itself. Anyway, I meant to say "banjo player," not banjo.

BTW, yes folks, it is a joke and not meant to be demeaning at all. And, I know it is an old joke recycled from whenever. When I was performing in clubs and coffee houses in Tampa, and had to stop between songs and check my tuning, I would usually tell this trite little saying just as a way to fill in time and it always got a laugh. Banjo players everywhere, please don't be offended.

Robert