DWFII - Posted - 02/28/2022:  17:54:10

Here's another couple dumb and awkward questions: I have been learning CH style banjo. My banjo is tuned to open G. And so far that's been fine.

But some songs I remember from when I was younger seem to be in G modal. So if I tune my second string up to C, will it stretch the string... making coming back to B a problem? I'm guessing not, but...??

Most of the music I have been looking at so far is written for open G. Is there a way to transcribe that music to Gmodal?

And maybe the dumbest question-- I am guessing all the left hand chord work is out the window if I tune to Gmodal. My C chord, my D and D7, my Eminor? 

And, finally,  how do you fret two adjacent strings with the same finger? 

elkinsfiddler - Posted - 02/28/2022:  19:05:32

Lots of questions DWFII. Here is my contribution. Raising the 2nd string from B to C is standard stuff. I guess that's G minor but I've done it for forty years usually capoed at the second fret. Tons of neat tunes can be played: Pretty Little Dog, Kitchen Girl (at least the way I play it), Falls of Richmond, Shady Grove, etc. No problem re tuning to B. Yes, your standard G chords are not used but actually I don't use chords in that tuning (affectionately called Mountain Minor or Dorian Mode, I think). I guess you could transcribe tunes to Mountain Minor from Open G but why bother. Your last question puzzles me. Why would you want to fret two strings with one finger? I guess you can barre them like folks do on the guitar but why? I'm sure there are plenty of folks more accomplished and experience then I am who can help you there. In my forty plus years of banjo playing, I can't recall ever needing to fret two strings with one finger. I guess there are times when that is appropriate, I don't know.

jack_beuthin - Posted - 02/28/2022:  19:15:13

Stretching the 2nd string by tuning back and for between B and C should not be not issue. "C" is well within the tension range of the string.  In all my years of playing, I don't believe I have ever snapped a 2nd string from going between G and G modal.



I made a YouTube video a while back explaining the differences between Standard G and Sawmill G (G modal) tunings, and when you would use one or the other. It might address some of you questions.

youtu.be/3Ixedsnd44Y

The main reason for using G modal versus Standard G is to play tunes/songs that are in the Dorian ("mountain minor") and Aeolian modes (true minor).  For tunes in the G major (Ionian mode), the G modal tuning would only complicate playing.  So for anything major, which utilizes a 1-4-5 chord structure (G-C-D), standard G is to go--to tuning (or perhaps some alternate G tuning).  Tune/songs in the Dorian and Aeolian modes are not based on the 1-4-5 chord structure, so D, D7, and E minor aren't really that important.  And again, if those chords are important, than it is better to stick with the standard G tuning (especially true if you have an E minor in a tune because it is a much easier chord in standard G).  The 7 chord is used a lot in the Dorian and Aeolian modes, which in this case, would be an F chord.  The G modal tuning actually makes the F chord easier because you don't need to fret the second string (the open string is the correct note). It is a three finger chord, rather than a four finger chord.

You can play "G modal" tunes in standard G, but you will have to fret the 2nd string at the 1st fret a lot (the C note is in the Dorian and Aeolian scales, but not the B note).  At the same time, you will be playing notes on the 1st and 3rd strings at the 2rd fret.  So a bit more finger stretching is involved, but it is totally doable.  The G modal tuning just makes life a lot easier when playing modal/minor tunes, and also gives a different mood because of the way the banjo is tuned.  My video gets into all of this.

And no, your familiar chords aren't necessarily out the window.  In G modal, the C chord is just a two finger chord that is shaped just like the E minor chord in standard G.  A simple D chord is formed by fretting both the 2nd and 3rd strings at the 2nd fret. The D7 chord is formed by simply fretting the 3rd string at the 2nd fret.  Because the 2nd string has been raised to a C, there is no need to place a finger on the first fret of that string.  Same applies for the C chord when you go back and think about it.  E minor is not so easy, so like I said, if that is an important chord, then my advice is to use the standard G tuning rather than G modal.

You can fret two adjacent strings (at the same fret position) by forming a partial barre chord.

DWFII - Posted - 02/28/2022:  20:25:52

Thanks to both of you. Some of it I understood.

It is my understanding that in Gminor tuning the Dminor chord is produced by fretting the second and third strings simultaneously at the second fret and first string at the third fret.

I am not lamenting the loss of any particular chord, just the position of the fingers and the transitions from, for instance, open G to C to open G to D7 to G to Eminor, and back to G,  etc..That's what I've been working on.

I'm just getting those  and now I have to learn a whole 'nuther set of chords.

I have a book--Banjo Case Chord Book, that suggests that the C chord is produced by first string 5th fret,second string fourth fret, and third string fifth fret. Is that wrong?

This Josh Turknett course is based on the Gmodal tuning  and then focuses on Pretty Polly for the whole course. 

To be honest, I would be happy to stay in Open G (which is one of the reasons I asked about transcribing from Gmodal to open G) but, then again,  I am intrigued by the sound of Sawmill and melodic possiblities of two fingerstyle. .

FWIW, I used to own at least one, but IIRC, two, of Clarance Ashley's albums. I like that kind of music. I grew up in semi rural, central Missouri so that kind of speaks to me.

DWFII - Posted - 02/28/2022:  20:42:15

Another question:

I was told (and have heard from several sources) that the chords most used in open G are Dmaj, Cmaj, Eminor, D7 and G7.

A there most used chords in Gmodal?

pianojuggler - Posted - 02/28/2022:  21:40:57

All I have to add at this point is that I really like Shady Grove. I think it has an old English country feel to it. My teacher wrote out a simple version of it I'd be happy to share with you.

jack_beuthin - Posted - 02/28/2022:  21:49:44

Those chords are the basics for G major.



Some "raggy" G tunes will also use A major (eg, Colored Aristocracy)



Tunes like Old Joe Clark and Red-haired Boy, which are in the Mixolydian mode, use the F chord, if they are played in the key of G.



You might encounter an A minor here and there in G major tunes.



Chordal structure of modal tunes is less straightforward, and can be topic for many arguments. But with that said. G modal will be based mostly on G or G minor, F, and maybe C.

Edited by - jack_beuthin on 02/28/2022 21:50:52

Bill Rogers - Posted - 02/28/2022:  21:52:47

As indicated above, G-modal is really not a chordal tuning. Maybe an occasional F, but little else. G-minor btw, comes by tuning the 2d string down to Bb. All 3 Seegers use it for John Hardy. Here’s a video of a young Mike Seeger. My favorite version of the song. Note the lack of chords. The banjo segment starts at 5:00.

youtube.com/watch?v=PFhtf93ZmbI

janolov - Posted - 02/28/2022:  23:52:13

A lot of players and a lot of tune use a lot of open string brushes in Gmodal/sawmill. That open chord contains the notes GCD (I will not try to name the "chord"), but it sounds good to tunes in Dorian mode. Don't bother about playing a true G minor chord in modal tuning. Choose the open string chord or just play single string stroke (if a guitar i accompanying it can play a true G minor chord).

The second most used chord in G modal (Dorian mode) is F (fourth string third fret, third string second fret, second string open and first string third fret). Sometimes you can skip fretting the first or fourth string and play the open.

Also C may be used (fourth string second fret, third and second string open, and first string second fret).

That are usually the only chords you have to know in G modal.

Edited by - janolov on 02/28/2022 23:57:01

DWFII - Posted - 03/01/2022:  05:29:34

quote:

---

Originally posted by pianojuggler

All I have to add at this point is that I really like Shady Grove. I think it has an old English country feel to it. My teacher wrote out a simple version of it I'd be happy to share with you.

---

Yes, please!

DWFII - Posted - 03/01/2022:  05:49:39

quote:

---

Originally posted by janolov

A lot of players and a lot of tune use a lot of open string brushes in Gmodal/sawmill. That open chord contains the notes GCD (I will not try to name the "chord"), but it sounds good to tunes in Dorian mode. Don't bother about playing a true G minor chord in modal tuning. Choose the open string chord or just play single string stroke (if a guitar i accompanying it can play a true G minor chord).

The second most used chord in G modal (Dorian mode) is F (fourth string third fret, third string second fret, second string open and first string third fret). Sometimes you can skip fretting the first or fourth string and play the open.

Also C may be used (fourth string second fret, third and second string open, and first string second fret).

That are usually the only chords you have to know in G modal.

---

Thanks for the help. I don't always 'get it' (or know what to do with it) first time I see it but I usually remember it.

So...again, maybe dumb or obscure and from what I seen here probably not necessary... but from my book (I like visual representations)  the Dminor chord is produced by fretting the second and third strings simultaneously at the second fret and first string at the third fret--(1s, 3f, 2s2f, 3s2f).

I am not sure how to physically achieve that simultaneous second and third string fretting--the book says both strings are fretted with the index finger of the left hand.

Is that a legitimate fingering?

Is  the Dminor chord even needed in Sawmill?

chip arnold - Posted - 03/01/2022:  06:09:32

Tunes in sawmill tuning are usually played without fingering any chords at all. The non fretted strings are open drones. Struggling to learn and fret chords in sawmill will take away the whole sound you like about sawmill. Play with fretting only the melody notes.

DWFII - Posted - 03/01/2022:  06:59:57

quote:

---

Originally posted by chip arnold

Tunes in sawmill tuning are usually played without fingering any chords at all. The non fretted strings are open drones. Struggling to learn and fret chords in sawmill will take away the whole sound you like about sawmill. Play with fretting only the melody notes.

---

I kind of like that. it's more like playing a woodwind (I played self-taught clarinet and penny whistle...not well... for some time) although I suspect that I don't want to abandon learning chords, altogether--I have spent a lot of time stretching my fingers and rolling the tips of my fingers over paper clips xD.

Noah Cline - Posted - 03/01/2022:  08:29:43

quote:

---

Originally posted by DWFII

quote:

---

Originally posted by janolov

A lot of players and a lot of tune use a lot of open string brushes in Gmodal/sawmill. That open chord contains the notes GCD (I will not try to name the "chord"), but it sounds good to tunes in Dorian mode. Don't bother about playing a true G minor chord in modal tuning. Choose the open string chord or just play single string stroke (if a guitar i accompanying it can play a true G minor chord).

The second most used chord in G modal (Dorian mode) is F (fourth string third fret, third string second fret, second string open and first string third fret). Sometimes you can skip fretting the first or fourth string and play the open.

Also C may be used (fourth string second fret, third and second string open, and first string second fret).

That are usually the only chords you have to know in G modal.

---

Thanks for the help. I don't always 'get it' (or know what to do with it) first time I see it but I usually remember it.

So...again, maybe dumb or obscure and from what I seen here probably not necessary... but from my book (I like visual representations)  the Dminor chord is produced by fretting the second and third strings simultaneously at the second fret and first string at the third fret--(1s, 3f, 2s2f, 3s2f).

I am not sure how to physically achieve that simultaneous second and third string fretting--the book says both strings are fretted with the index finger of the left hand.

Is that a legitimate fingering?

Is  the Dminor chord even needed in Sawmill?

---

Yes, it is a legitimate fingering to barre two strings. You do this by using the flat part of the first joint of your index, flexing the rest of your finger at the joint to clear the first string, or whichever strings you don't want to chord. 

Some guitarists might use it to play the A-chord, using the first joint of the index finger to barre strings 4, 3, and 2 at the second fret. The first string might get muted, which is ok, but usually the finger is bent up at the first joint to clear it. I tend to play it with my index, middle, and ring all in a row, though some might have trouble with clearance issues and chord it with the middle, index, and then ring on 4, 3, and 2, respectively, or barre it. 

You could form the Dm chord the same way, chording only the 3rd and 2nd strings, lifting the rest of your finger at the joint to clear the first string. To chord it the rest of the way as you mentioned, lay your index across 3, 2, and 1, and then fret the first with your ring finger to give you the 0-2-2-3 chord. You could also chord it by using the middle and ring finger to chord just the third and second strings (much like an E-minor chord on guitar), or just the third string, playing the fourth and first open along with it. Playing the second string open with the fretted third string, second fret and the other open strings would give you a Dm natural 7th. 

I tend to use some of these fingerings (mainly fretting just the third string, second fret and open notes, or both third and second strings, second fret) that I've described above when playing Kicthen Girl, Pretty Little Dog, etc in A modal, where the notes/chords tend to go for the Em instead of G. 

 

JimHenry - Posted - 03/01/2022:  08:34:39

I second (or third) Chip Arnold's concise advice (and several of the other commenters). Don't think about chords in sawmill tuning at all for now. Most arrangements for sawmill tunes are single-string sequences. As Chip mentions, you can use non-fretted strings for brushes or partial brushes often if you like and the sound is good in this tuning.

Sounds that want lots of chords - stick to the open G tuning or even drop C or Double C if you like. But since you are beginning, it might be best not to jump into too many tunings too fast.

DWFII - Posted - 03/01/2022:  09:15:52

I have learned a lot (and like all such learning the biggest lesson is how much I don't know) and I wanted to thank you all.I appreciate it.



Now the biggie....Why is the sky blue?

 

xD

davidppp - Posted - 03/01/2022:  10:20:34

About 140 years ago, William Strutt wrote one of the all-time greatest books on sound. It's still absolutely relevant to all of acoustics -- music, instruments, hearing, and otherwise. He did an astounding number of other things in science, including identifying the next most important component of air after nitrogen, oxygen, carbon dioxide, and water. ...And he figured out why the sky is blue.

The common advice to fathers, when asked by their kids why the sky is blue is to say, "Ask your mother."

If you want to be polite, you refer to Strutt as Lord Rayleigh.

DWFII - Posted - 03/01/2022:  10:29:21

quote:

---

Originally posted by davidppp

About 140 years ago, William Strutt wrote one of the all-time greatest books on sound. It's still absolutely relevant to all of acoustics -- music, instruments, hearing, and otherwise. He did an astounding number of other things in science, including identifying the next most important component of air after nitrogen, oxygen, carbon dioxide, and water. ...And he figured out why the sky is blue.



The common advice to fathers, when asked by their kids why the sky is blue is to say, "Ask your mother."



If you want to be polite, you refer to Strutt as Lord Rayleigh.

---

GrahamHawker - Posted - 03/01/2022:  12:08:49

Of course it depends what you're playing. When I'm space rocking, as I often am, I use chords with G modal which is the tuning I almost always use. But then I also, and probably mainly, use partial chords (such as Bb/D) keeping some strings open and the modal uncertainty feeling. Often I don't know what the chord would be called.

R.D. Lunceford - Posted - 03/06/2022:  16:52:49

quote:

---

Originally posted by chip arnold

Tunes in sawmill tuning are usually played without fingering any chords at all. The non fretted strings are open drones. Struggling to learn and fret chords in sawmill will take away the whole sound you like about sawmill. Play with fretting only the melody notes.

---

What Chip says  ties the issue up very neatly.

One feature of OT banjo is playing over a drone, and that applies not just to tunes in the Gmodal tuning.  You want to avoid approaching the banjo as you would the guitar.  On the banjo, the study of chords is inversely proportional to the amount of time wasted.  My advice would be to learn a handful of chords in the G tuning which is chord friendly.  If the need arises for a chord in another tuning you can easily modify one of your G tuning chords to fit.

Edited by - R.D. Lunceford on 03/06/2022 16:54:32

Helix - Posted - 03/14/2022:  05:27:31

Sawmill, see?