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Please note this is an archived topic, so it is locked and unable to be replied to. You may, however, start a new topic and refer to this topic with a link: http://www.banjohangout.org/archive/380776
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TN Time - Posted - 01/24/2022: 08:48:56
I regularly visit a local jam that is made up mostly of dulcimers. There are a couple of guitars and another banjo, but many dulcimers. As a result, they mostly play in the Key of D. Other than capoing at the 7th fret and playing in the normal "G" position, what are some other options for playing in D?
Robert
JimHenry - Posted - 01/24/2022: 09:11:58
Double C tuning, capo 2. Tune the fifth string up (g to a) or use a fifth string capo. Double C is pretty common for many old time tunes, and easy to learn.
mmuussiiccaall - Posted - 01/24/2022: 09:23:21
Learn some of these songs the way Earl did them and you will have the keys of C with no capo and D if you capo 2.
doryman - Posted - 01/24/2022: 10:06:01
Starting in the open G tuning, I just capo up two frets and play D out of the C chord position. As Henry describe above, Double C, capo 2, is also fun.
janolov - Posted - 01/24/2022: 11:12:54
Sometimes also ordinary G tuning with fifth string up to an a is possible.
deestexas - Posted - 01/24/2022: 11:13:09
Get a set of heavier strings(such as Deering's Julia Belle) and use a lower, open D tuning. All the regular open G tuning "stuff" will work - I certainly would prefer that to a capo at the 7th fret.
Edited by - deestexas on 01/24/2022 11:13:43
Texasbanjo - Posted - 01/24/2022: 11:13:13
You can also just play out of open G using D, G, A chords (some songs you capo the 5th up 2 and some you don't). I prefer capoing up 2 and using C, F, G because there are so many licks and partial melody phrases in C and G you can use and it's easier for me to play in C than in D (personal preference only)
Blackjaxe47 - Posted - 01/24/2022: 11:36:11
That is exactly what I do Sherry. We always have more than a couple of Mandolin pickers in our local jams and at least half of their tunes are played in the key of D. It is great if you can learn to pick a song in several keys it enables you to switch from G to D or C......songs like John Henry are a good example. I capo my 5th at 7 and find the Melody in D, G and A when playing in the key of D
Bill Rogers - Posted - 01/24/2022: 12:46:30
I started with the Seeger book and mostly use C tuning capo 2. Some double-C; some open D. C tuning chords more easily up the neck than double-C.
mrphysics55 - Posted - 01/24/2022: 13:05:45
quote:
Originally posted by TN TimeI regularly visit a local jam that is made up mostly of dulcimers. . . . As a result, they mostly play in the Key of D. . . .
Robert
They are trying to tell you something.
overhere - Posted - 01/24/2022: 13:30:28
hey I have an idea.....how about just learning to play in D?
doryman - Posted - 01/24/2022: 14:21:02
quote:
Originally posted by overherehey I have an idea.....how about just learning to play in D?
I'm not sure what you mean here. Almost every solution presented above IS playing in the key of D.
banjered - Posted - 01/24/2022: 14:53:07
Try tuning aDF#AD.However, I do have a banjo with Nylgut Minstrel strings lowered down from G tuning to D, dADF#A that preserves the more familiar G pattern tuning. So many folk songs, maybe as high as 90%, need that lower A note below the D third string, Red River Valley/Shenandoah etc. banjered
thisoldman - Posted - 01/24/2022: 15:02:32
I played dulcimer for a bit while searching for a instrument to learn to play after I retired. My memory isn't perfect, but there are some things I can remember.
As you probably know, dulcimers are usually tuned to DAD (root, 5th, octave) or DAA (root, 5th, 5th). Dulcimers are actually pretty easy to play (easier than banjo for sure), even for someone like me with only a modicum of musical talent. You can play the melody notes as well as chords. There are some moveable chord shapes (barre, slant, V).
The rest of this is just spitballing. One thing your group, with guitars and dulcimers, lacks is a "time keeper". I think I'd be tempted to do some vamping, taking the part of the bass or drum during some of the songs. And don't think it would be inappropriate to ask the dulcimer players back you up while playing in G, since with the tuning, forming a chord is as easy as making a barre chord and strumming. They could even play with some picking patterns while fingerpicking (maybe even some Scruggs style rolls *gasp*). Assuming they are an accepting group (and they must be if they let a banjo in the group), they might be willing to stretch a bit. Of course, to play nice, learning to play some of the tunes in D would be a good thing to do.
cobra1 - Posted - 01/24/2022: 15:19:00
For the key of d, I capo the 5th sting at the 7th. Then use a partial full d by just fretting the 3rd string a 2 fret and 2nd string at third fret. Playing the two d strings open in this manor can give a d. Play the g open and barre the 2nd fret (A) to get chords for key of d. I do this because of Arthritis I can't make a 4-finger chord. Sometimes a make a c-position d and play as I said above.
This may not be proper but it works for me.
As mentioned above you can always Capo the second fret and play out of c position.
overhere - Posted - 01/24/2022: 15:44:21
quote:
Originally posted by dorymanquote:
Originally posted by overherehey I have an idea.....how about just learning to play in D?
I'm not sure what you mean here. Almost every solution presented above IS playing in the key of D.
open G tuning seems most are using capos or using various tunings I just suggested using plain ol' standard key of D.from G standard tuning with only a fifth string A. thats all.....no biggy.....relax
doryman - Posted - 01/24/2022: 16:32:59
quote:
Originally posted by overherequote:
Originally posted by dorymanquote:
Originally posted by overherehey I have an idea.....how about just learning to play in D?
I'm not sure what you mean here. Almost every solution presented above IS playing in the key of D.
open G tuning seems most are using capos or using various tunings I just suggested using plain ol' standard key of D.from G standard tuning with only a fifth string A. thats all.....no biggy.....relax
I'm not accusing you of anything, I just didn't get what you meant. For me, I think that that there are better ways to play the key of D on the banjo, ways that sound better and are more fun to play, than playing the key of D out of the open G position. I do play D out of the open G from time to time, in jams especially when I don't feel like retuning or when we jump to the new song before I have a chance to retune or capo. I don't always like the way the 5th string sounds, so I play with a lighter thumb when I do that. The double C and D tuning sounds so good on the banjo (and it's easy to play and learn) especially with OT music, I think it's the better option for the OP, especially if they are going to be playing a lot of D tunes.
BeeEnvironment - Posted - 01/24/2022: 17:16:25
As Seeger and many other musicians do and did, just go to the open key of c (gCGBD), and then capo up 2 frets (a whole note), up to the key of D. And there you are!
I have found the Key of D ideal for folks songs such as Oleanna, Blue Juniata (the girl of Alfarata), Putting on the style (Catskill mts roots), Deep Blue Sea, and This land is your land, among many many many many others that can nicely fit the key of d.
TN Time - Posted - 01/24/2022: 17:23:29
quote:
Originally posted by mrphysics55quote:
Originally posted by TN TimeI regularly visit a local jam that is made up mostly of dulcimers. . . . As a result, they mostly play in the Key of D. . . .
RobertThey are trying to tell you something.
Yeah, they are. "Don't play along with dulcimers." aka, "DULL-cimers."
Robert
TN Time - Posted - 01/24/2022: 17:25:24
quote:
Originally posted by overherehey I have an idea.....how about just learning to play in D?
Simple. Because I don't like playing in the key of D.
Robert
mrphysics55 - Posted - 01/24/2022: 17:32:06
quote:
Originally posted by TN Timequote:
Originally posted by mrphysics55quote:
Originally posted by TN TimeI regularly visit a local jam that is made up mostly of dulcimers. . . . As a result, they mostly play in the Key of D. . . .
RobertThey are trying to tell you something.
Yeah, they are. "Don't play along with dulcimers." aka, "DULL-cimers."
Robert
Probably gonna' miss out on makin' some new friends.
TN Time - Posted - 01/24/2022: 17:47:29
The people at these jams don't give you a lot of time between songs. I just barely have time to put on the capo and then the 5th string capo. I don't think retuning all the time would work with this group. Thanks for all of your help but, at least for now, I'm going to capo up 2 frets and play out of the C position. I probably will also just play back up in D, using D, G, and A in G tuning with no capo.
banjered - Posted - 01/24/2022: 17:48:53
I had the last dulcimer made by Capitarus Music in Felton California. I got bored with its musical limitations which also reflect my musical limitations and sold it. Some people can actually play fiddle tunes on them and up to tempo and keeping the rhythm but they are very rare as far as I am concerned. An analogy is playing jigs on the 5 banger, yeah some can do it but it is so much easier with a tenor. What I eventually ended up doing was getting an octave mandolin, using the CGDA sets of strings but tuning it to DADA– so much easier to play, more versatile but with a somewhat similar sound to a dulcimer. I have a CD with a song I and a couple others did that features that tuning on the mandolin but I am too technically deficient to post it. Just some musical meanderings... banjered
TN Time - Posted - 01/24/2022: 18:16:49
quote:
Originally posted by mrphysics55quote:
Originally posted by TN Timequote:
Originally posted by mrphysics55quote:
Originally posted by TN TimeI regularly visit a local jam that is made up mostly of dulcimers. . . . As a result, they mostly play in the Key of D. . . .
RobertThey are trying to tell you something.
Yeah, they are. "Don't play along with dulcimers." aka, "DULL-cimers."
Robert
Probably gonna' miss out on makin' some new friends.
You are probably right.
Robert
Bill H - Posted - 01/25/2022: 02:56:03
It is impossible to play old time or Bluergrass music without playing in the key of D. The way one approaches the key of D is most likely guided by the style they are playing. For claw hammer play, double D tuning is a fairly standard approach for fiddle tunes. For chordal accompanyment while playing and singing folk songs with claw hammer style, capo 2 and playing out of C positions may serve well. For Bluegrass, playing out of standard G tuning is a common approach with the fifth string left at g and used to catch melody notes, or tuned up to a for a more chordal approach.
I might use any of the above depending on the setting or the tune being played. It is really a matter of personal preference. There are no rules, except to play on key and in time. I would view it as a learning opportunity to explore the options to find what works best for you. As a banjo player, finding a jam that matches the style of music I favor--which is mainly fiddle tunes--is a rare occurrence. Therefore, to play with others, the banjo player needs to be adaptive to varying styles.
My take on the original question.
Texasbanjo - Posted - 01/25/2022: 04:55:17
quote:
Originally posted by TN TimeThe people at these jams don't give you a lot of time between songs. I just barely have time to put on the capo and then the 5th string capo. I don't think retuning all the time would work with this group. Thanks for all of your help but, at least for now, I'm going to capo up 2 frets and play out of the C position. I probably will also just play back up in D, using D, G, and A in G tuning with no capo.
As has been said by one of our members: It's your banjo, play it your way. If capoing up 2 and playing out of C works for you .... do it and don't worry about what other people would do.
However, you asked for advice and you got some you didn't like. That happens in a forum. Everyone has an idea of the best way (for them) to play and maybe it'll work for you, maybe not.
thisoldman - Posted - 01/25/2022: 06:32:47
Don't know why I didn't think of this before, but I have Eddie Collin's book Fiddle Tunes Made Easy for Bluegrass Banjo. There are 5 tunes in there that are in D, played out of open G - Arkansas Traveler, Soldiers Joy, Liberty, Whiskey Before Breakfast and Eighth of January. No retuning needed. There are 2 versions of each tune, an easy and a more challenging arrangement. Also some tunes in C and several in A (capo needed for the A tunes).
thisoldman - Posted - 01/25/2022: 06:50:49
I know Eddie has a book on playing in D. As I recall the purpose of the book is to learn to play in D out of open G, but you would have to check that out, as my memory may not be correct. Edit: I checked a description of the book and it is indeed playing in the key of D out of open G without retuning or a capo.
Edited by - thisoldman on 01/25/2022 06:56:24
TN Time - Posted - 01/25/2022: 10:23:35
quote:
Originally posted by Texasbanjoquote:
Originally posted by TN TimeThe people at these jams don't give you a lot of time between songs. I just barely have time to put on the capo and then the 5th string capo. I don't think retuning all the time would work with this group. Thanks for all of your help but, at least for now, I'm going to capo up 2 frets and play out of the C position. I probably will also just play back up in D, using D, G, and A in G tuning with no capo.
As has been said by one of our members: It's your banjo, play it your way. If capoing up 2 and playing out of C works for you .... do it and don't worry about what other people would do.
However, you asked for advice and you got some you didn't like. That happens in a forum. Everyone has an idea of the best way (for them) to play and maybe it'll work for you, maybe not.
WOW! I didn't realize that I came across the way you describe, and if so I apologize for that. I really didn't ask for advice (at least I didn't think I did) but I just wanted to know what others did and what options were available. I didn't get any advice that I didn't like. In fact I didn't take the comments as advice at all but just statements on how others play it. In fact, I did concede your method is probably the one I would use the most. BTW, I am not new to forums. I have been a member of various forums for years and have even been a moderator from time to time and I have found that just about anything one says, someone is going to take it in a way that was not intended. I even thanked everyone for their comments and admitted that I will use some of the suggested methods in my jam playing. Anyway, thank you for your comments and thank you for all you do as a modertor. I know that a moderator's job is not easy.
Robert
TN Time - Posted - 01/25/2022: 10:33:22
I remember seeing a video of Bill Emerson playing in a band and his banjo was capoed at the 7th fret. I don't know what key he was playing in as I didn't pay all that much attention to it, I just thought it was unusual for a player of his caliber to have his capo set at the 7th fret.
Robert
richard baskowski - Posted - 01/25/2022: 13:28:23
with regards to Mr. Emerson,I wonder if you are referring to the song "Matterhorn". The original kickoff by Eddie Adcock was meant to startle, as I believe he is capoed at the seven. The banjo really "sparkles" on that cut. I think the key word in this discussion is "approach". How do you want to play a certain song or tune may have bearing on what licks you will decide to use, or what style of play you think best fits the flavor, or melody. All of the above methods are fun to experiment with. Since the dulcimers are in one key, with no time to change ,I guess keeping it simple would be the way to "approach" the situation! I suppose you could bring more than one banjo,set with different tunings. happy pickin!
KCJones - Posted - 01/25/2022: 17:37:18
quote:
Originally posted by overherequote:
Originally posted by dorymanquote:
Originally posted by overherehey I have an idea.....how about just learning to play in D?
I'm not sure what you mean here. Almost every solution presented above IS playing in the key of D.
open G tuning seems most are using capos or using various tunings I just suggested using plain ol' standard key of D.from G standard tuning with only a fifth string A. thats all.....no biggy.....relax
Thread drift, perhaps, but if you want to talk about "Standard" tuning, you need to be talking about gCGBD, which is the standard tuning for a 5 string banjo.
Coincidentally, gCGBD capo'd at 2nd fret is a great way to play in the key of D. I don't think that method has been mentioned yet, but it's worth a try.
doryman - Posted - 01/26/2022: 11:28:31
quote:
Originally posted by KCJonesquote:
Originally posted by overherequote:
Originally posted by dorymanquote:
Originally posted by overherehey I have an idea.....how about just learning to play in D?
I'm not sure what you mean here. Almost every solution presented above IS playing in the key of D.
open G tuning seems most are using capos or using various tunings I just suggested using plain ol' standard key of D.from G standard tuning with only a fifth string A. thats all.....no biggy.....relax
Thread drift, perhaps, but if you want to talk about "Standard" tuning, you need to be talking about gCGBD, which is the standard tuning for a 5 string banjo.
Coincidentally, gCGBD capo'd at 2nd fret is a great way to play in the key of D. I don't think that method has been mentioned yet, but it's worth a try.
Don't you mean gDGBD?
ChunoTheDog - Posted - 01/26/2022: 12:25:18
quote:
Originally posted by TN TimeI remember seeing a video of Bill Emerson playing in a band and his banjo was capoed at the 7th fret. I don't know what key he was playing in as I didn't pay all that much attention to it, I just thought it was unusual for a player of his caliber to have his capo set at the 7th fret.
Robert
I'm pretty certain Ralph capos up to the 12th fret for 'Rabbit in a log'..lol
KCJones - Posted - 01/26/2022: 12:41:42
doryman No, I mean gCGBD. That is standard tuning on a banjo.
Open G tuning is an alternative tuning that gained popularity in the mid-20th century, and is a common tuning used today, along with double-c and sawmill, but it's not standard tuning.
Edited by - KCJones on 01/26/2022 12:42:42
doryman - Posted - 01/26/2022: 13:50:16
quote:
Originally posted by KCJonesdoryman No, I mean gCGBD. That is standard tuning on a banjo.
Open G tuning is an alternative tuning that gained popularity in the mid-20th century, and is a common tuning used today, along with double-c and sawmill, but it's not standard tuning.
There was a time when pumping "regular gas" meant that you were filling your tank with leaded gasoline, but that's not what regular means anymore.
ChunoTheDog - Posted - 01/26/2022: 14:10:45
quote:
Originally posted by dorymanquote:
Originally posted by KCJonesdoryman No, I mean gCGBD. That is standard tuning on a banjo.
Open G tuning is an alternative tuning that gained popularity in the mid-20th century, and is a common tuning used today, along with double-c and sawmill, but it's not standard tuning.There was a time when pumping "regular gas" meant that you were filling your tank with leaded gasoline, but that's not what regular means anymore.
BINGO
Ira Gitlin - Posted - 01/26/2022: 15:29:16
TN Time, what style(s) of music are you playing? Bluegrass? Old-time? Something else?
KCJones - Posted - 01/26/2022: 17:29:25
quote:
Originally posted by dorymanquote:
Originally posted by KCJonesdoryman No, I mean gCGBD. That is standard tuning on a banjo.
Open G tuning is an alternative tuning that gained popularity in the mid-20th century, and is a common tuning used today, along with double-c and sawmill, but it's not standard tuning.There was a time when pumping "regular gas" meant that you were filling your tank with leaded gasoline, but that's not what regular means anymore.
Complete non-sequitur. You're talking about material standards and fuel regulations, there's a reason those things change and they're not analogous to the common vernacular of a folk string instrument.
Even today, open G is not a universal standard. I go to a jam where the only banjo tunings used are double-C (capo'd at 2) and Sawmill.
Edited by - KCJones on 01/26/2022 17:29:37
TN Time - Posted - 01/26/2022: 18:19:15
quote:
Originally posted by Ira GitlinTN Time, what style(s) of music are you playing? Bluegrass? Old-time? Something else?
I play a Pete Seeger/George Grove style while singing the verses and play the breaks three finger Scruggs style.
Robert
doryman - Posted - 01/26/2022: 19:21:08
quote:
Originally posted by KCJonesquote:
Originally posted by dorymanquote:
Originally posted by KCJonesdoryman No, I mean gCGBD. That is standard tuning on a banjo.
Open G tuning is an alternative tuning that gained popularity in the mid-20th century, and is a common tuning used today, along with double-c and sawmill, but it's not standard tuning.There was a time when pumping "regular gas" meant that you were filling your tank with leaded gasoline, but that's not what regular means anymore.
Complete non-sequitur. You're talking about material standards and fuel regulations, there's a reason those things change and they're not analogous to the common vernacular of a folk string instrument.
Even today, open G is not a universal standard. I go to a jam where the only banjo tunings used are double-C (capo'd at 2) and Sawmill.
Hey, if that's the hill you want to die on, have at it. And good luck with that. Some people build ships in bottles.
And now, MY turn to be pedantic. The term you're looking for is false equivalence, not non-sequitur.
Ira Gitlin - Posted - 01/27/2022: 06:39:21
quote:
Originally posted by ChunoTheDogquote:
Originally posted by TN TimeI remember seeing a video of Bill Emerson playing in a band and his banjo was capoed at the 7th fret. I don't know what key he was playing in as I didn't pay all that much attention to it, I just thought it was unusual for a player of his caliber to have his capo set at the 7th fret.
RobertI'm pretty certain Ralph capos up to the 12th fret for 'Rabbit in a log'..lol
I don't know about 12, but I'm seeing him capo'd at 9 doing it with Jimmy Martin, and hearing other recordings--both live and studio--with Carter where it sounds like he's at 10 and 11 (assuming no funny business with tape speed etc.).
Note that he's slapping a capo across all five strings, with the 5th capo'd at the same fret as the 1st.
youtube.com/results?search_que...+in+a+log
elkinsfiddler - Posted - 01/27/2022: 10:31:17
Playing the banjo in the key of C/D is not as much fun as playing in open G/A for me. I do it but prefer not to. If I can't avoid playing in D, I use Drop C tuning capoed or open G tuning capoed with full chords. I find a number of D fiddle tunes easier to play with full chords. But the low fourth string sure comes in handy with many fiddle tunes in D. It is quick and easy to drop or raise the fourth string on the fly so it isn't really an issue. I never use double D. It's just too much trouble to retune or to haul a separate banjo around, at least for me. I had a friend who capoed at the seventh fret (as many bluegrass players do) and he sounded just fine. I've tried it but gave it up. It's too high and squeaky to my ears.
ChunoTheDog - Posted - 01/27/2022: 12:41:22
quote:
Originally posted by Ira Gitlinquote:
I don't know about 12, but I'm seeing him capo'd at 9 doing it with Jimmy Martin, and hearing other recordings--both live and studio--with Carter where it sounds like he's at 10 and 11 (assuming no funny business with tape speed etc.).
Note that he's slapping a capo across all five strings, with the 5th capo'd at the same fret as the 1st.
youtube.com/results?search_que...+in+a+log
Close enough but yea, all 5 strings capo'd up way high.
dlm7507 - Posted - 01/28/2022: 15:58:48
I'm in the same situation, lots of dulcimers, songs mostly played in D & G. I just leave it in open G. The low note on the 4 string is G so it you are playing a song that starts on a note lower than G you play up an octave. Double C or Open D have the same issue so changing tunings seems pointless in this kind of jam if you play at all melodically.
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