mikebanjo - Posted - 09/04/2021:  06:22:33

A Bluegrass-picking friend of mine joined a Jazz Ensemble class I am taking and I volunteered to help him out with reading and picking in Standard Music Notation. Following is the a copy of the email and pdf file I sent him:


It was good seeing you in the Jazz Ensemble class the other night. Hope you enjoy it and it advances your banjo picking pursuits. I asked whether you know how to read/pick to Standard Music Notation and said I was thinking of putting together a chart to help (for me, anyhow). It turned out to be harder than I thought it would be, so perhaps some commentary would be helpful after you open up/print the Where're3Ds pdf chart.

The two tunes/songs handed out during the jazz class is a good place to start. They are both written in the key of C, which is troublesome in G tuning for bluegrass pickers who sometimes capo up to the 5th fret and play the key-of-G licks they already know. Picking to Standard Music Notation in G tuning, without a capo for a tune/song in the key of C, usually takes (for me, anyhow) some mental activity and more up-the-neck picking.

Most banjo music in Standard Music Notation is written with just the Treble Clef, since most banjo notes/sounds fall within the Treble Clef range. Likewise, most Fake Book/sheet music for jazz, popular music, country, etc. is written with just the Treble Clef. The first thing I do, then, when I see a piece of sheet music is determine if there are any notes lower than the lowest D on the banjo (4th string/open) or the circled D on my banjo neck drawing. Since there are no notes below the lowest/circled D in the "I Could Write a Book" sheet music, the A (above on the chart) method works well for this piece and most sheet music tunes/songs.

However, the A method for Standard Music Notation has its limits. A whole octave (higher C to highest C) of notes above the 10th fret/1st string are not illustrated, unless one continues beyond the two lines above the Treble Clef. The A method also only contains two D notes/sounds - shown on the banjo neck as the lowest/circled D and higher/triangle D - but the third D note/sound - highest/square D - is not shown in the A method. One needs to mentally rethink the banjo neck and notes to get ALL of them into Standard Music Notation and include the three Ds. Hence the attachment's title: Where're3Ds?

The B (below) method is my way of rethinking when I am picking to Standard Music Notation. When the Standard Music Notation/sheet music has notes below D ( picked at the 4th string/open under A method) and/or notes above the higher C (picked at the 1st string/10th fret), I go to the B method format. The lowest/circled D note is mentally re-figured and shown at 4 lines below on the Treble Clef. These notes on lines below the Treble Clef are typically shown as "Bass Clef notes" and are shown up to middle C at one line below Treble Clef. The pitch for some notes might be played at an octave higher, but you can play ALL the notes/sounds on the banjo in G tuning under the B method.

Start with the D at 4 lines below on the Treble Clef under the B method by picking the lowest D on the banjo (4th string/open). Then you can continue up the C scale to any of the higher/triangle D notes by picking the key-of-C-scale notes in whatever way you are comfortable. Look at the banjo neck lower-neck indications of the notes on the banjo neck drawing for any of the strings. Next, from the higher/triangle D note you can go to any of the highest/square D notes, again using the banjo neck indicators. picking the notes from the mid-range of the banjo. Finally, you can pick from the highest/square D note to the highest C note at the1st fret/22nd fret by selecting the upper-banjo-neck notes as indicated on the banjo neck.

On the other tune/song with the sheet music handed out in class, after the bass-notes introduction, the tune/song starts and ends on a C note (in the key of C). You could, of course, stick with the A method and use two other Cs in G tuning - C at 2nd string/1st fret or 3rd string/5th fret - but I like to start and end up on the neck at the C note at the 4th fret/10th fret. Seems like the C note there gives you more flexibility to play the other notes of the song as shown on the sheet music. Starting/ending with the C note at 2nd string/1st fret or 3rd string/5th fret in G tuning seems unnecessarily awkward to me.

Anyhow, I hope this kind of rethinking in G tuning helps when you're reading and picking to Standard Music Notation.

mikebanjo - Posted - 09/04/2021:  06:29:44

oops, forgot to add the pdf file . . .

Where're3Ds

 

Old Hickory - Posted - 09/04/2021:  07:28:23

quote:

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Originally posted by mikebanjo

Most banjo music in Standard Music Notation is written with just the Treble Clef, since most banjo notes/sounds fall within the Treble Clef range.

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Banjo sounds only fall within the treble clef range because banjo plays standard notation an octave lower than written.

When standard notation calls for D above middle C -- the space below the lowest line of treble clef -- a G-tuned banjo plays its lowest note, open 4th. Middle C is actually the C note at 1st fret of 2nd string, so D above middle C is actually open 1st string.

It's this shifting of an octave that keeps banjo notes from low D to high G (open 5th or 1st string at 5) within the treble clef.  Starting at high A, ledger lines are needed.

Edited by - Old Hickory on 09/04/2021 07:28:58

Joel Hooks - Posted - 09/04/2021:  10:31:44

Right, banjo is, and has been for 166 years, noted one octave above that actual pitch. Modern music programs use the hanging 8 on the clef. In the early 1900s the Guild of Banjoists, Mandolinists, and Guitarists adopted a clef with a slash mark through the top. This was only used for a short time. Everybody else just used the standard treble clef.

You have WAY overcomplicated this. All of this has been worked out and the info is free for the taking.

In standard tuning, gCGBD, the banjo with a 22 fret neck gets three full octaves in the key of C. The “natural keys” of the banjo are C, G, F, and reflective minors (though one can play in any key).

Reading is not something that one can learn in a short time, expect a few months or more. The biggest challenge is already knowing how to play. This will get in the way as the simple beginner exercises will be boring. Sadly the banjo is no longer taught with notation which has created a system of illiteracy with banjoists.

Also, folk music and bluegrass is not noted.

For reading I recommend Mel Bay’s Banjo Method, Concert Style by Frank Bradbury. It is not bluegrass music, but it will teach how to read music for banjo. And you only have to learn once.

Texasbanjo - Posted - 09/04/2021:  10:45:58

I played piano years before I took up banjo, so musical notation was familiar to me. At first, if I was picking out a melody, I'd have to go to the piano and figure out the melody notes, then transfer them to the banjo. Now I can look at sheet music for piano and play it note for note on the banjo. It isn't that difficult if you understand musical notation, tab and the strings on your banjo.

banjoak - Posted - 09/04/2021:  17:23:08

Not sure what that is attempting to do, might be more confusing than what already exists.

Seems like you want to create clef, that covers all the notes without using  any octave transposing? No doubt, reading phrases with a lot of notes beyond a a few ledger lines outside clef is annoying.

Solution is the basic 8va symbol. Most of Treble C instruments (such as violin) just notate to keep phrases mostly within staff; but that's not the full range of instrument. If what's played is much in other octave, simply mark 8va for octave up; or 8vb for octave down to keep within easier to read clef. Octave transposing is pretty easy for folks to read and process.

Most banjo and guitar notation, start with default octave down, even if not properly noted. Probably due to most folks typically start in first position on instrument, the octave below middle C on banjo/guitar; keeping it in treble clef (8vb); simply easier to read... so lot's of music is written default transposed down. Again to play in the higher octaves, just put in a 8va.

 

Edited by - banjoak on 09/04/2021 17:25:21

RB3 - Posted - 09/06/2021:  08:56:15

This discussion has actually confused me, so I have a couple of questions. What is the frequency of the middle-c note on piano and for a banjo in G-tuning what is the frequency of the c-note on the second string at the first fret?

Ira Gitlin - Posted - 09/06/2021:  10:51:16

It's somewhere around 260 Hz, depending on the temperament system used, I think. But at any rate, it'll be the same as the banjo's 2nd-string, 1st fret note.

G Edward Porgie - Posted - 09/06/2021:  15:11:02

Middle "C" on a piano is 261.628 Hz in equal temperament tuning (which is the system used in designing fretted instruments, too).



The "C" at the 2nd string, 1st fret is "middle C," and should therefore, in a perfect world, be the same frequency.

banjoak - Posted - 09/06/2021:  16:22:47

Which puts the actual A440 (used for tuning) on seventh fret of the 1st string (in G tuning example). Seeing the A in middle of staff, technically should mean that note.

Perhaps pointing to confusion... perhaps related to the OP; whether written standard notation represents actual frequency... or as on banjo or guitar those are often default represents the octave lower; at least for first position. That is, the A above middle C in middle of staff, plays the second fret on 3rd string; really 220 Hz. Perhaps technically should be written on 2 ledger lines below staff or in bass clef, but can make harder to read.

This perhaps seems more confusing/complicated than it is in practice.