lature - Posted - 07/26/2021:  05:48:52

Traditional fiddle tunes are grouped into reels, hornpipes, breakdowns, jigs, ...

I was wondering what songs like "Shuckin The Corn" or "Foggy Mountain Special" would be called. "Shuckin" is fast, so perhaps a reel or breakdown. "Foggy" is slower with a lot of swing, so a "hornpipe?"

Or maybe there is some other classification for banjo songs???

What about standard bluegrass vocal tunes like "Blue Moon of Kentucky?" When Elvis did this song it might be "pop" but what about Bill Monroe's version?

FenderFred - Posted - 07/26/2021:  06:27:07

quote:

---

Originally posted by lature

Traditional fiddle tunes are grouped into reels, hornpipes, breakdowns, jigs, ...



I was wondering what songs like "Shuckin The Corn" or "Foggy Mountain Special" would be called. "Shuckin" is fast, so perhaps a reel or breakdown. "Foggy" is slower with a lot of swing, so a "hornpipe?"



Or maybe there is some other classification for banjo songs???



What about standard bluegrass vocal tunes like "Blue Moon of Kentucky?" When Elvis did this song it might be "pop" but what about Bill Monroe's version?

---

Jigs, Reels, Hornpipes , Waltzes etc are dance steps. Since many of these Fiddle, Whistle & and Bagpipe tunes have their origins in Celtic music ie Scots/Irish I guess it was only inevitable they would find there way to be played on the banjo. We have Bill Keith to thank for that because he was the one who is best known to have figured a way to play fiddle tunes on the banjo. If your are interested in learning more about the Celtic style of playing go check out pickinlessons.com/  

Foggy Mountain Special is I believe linked to rock in roll - boogie woogie dance steps

Blue Moon of Kentucky is a Waltz which switches from a slow tempo to a fast tempo with a time signature change 3/4 to 4/4 thrown in for good measure.

Foggy I believe has more to do with the mist on the mountains a feature of the Blue Ridge Mountains., and shuckin as the name suggests airing the corn mash - a process in whisky making. Search Goolge for Malting process.

Edited by - FenderFred on 07/26/2021 06:30:03

Zachary Hoyt - Posted - 07/26/2021:  06:48:13

The way I think about it in my own mind is that jigs are in 3 equal beats with the first emphasized and reels are two short beats and an emphasized long beat. This is not technical and may not even be correct, but it works for me. I tend to play a lot more reels than jigs for some reason, when I play the fiddle. Many banjo instrumentals don't come under any of the old dance rhythms, as far as I know. I think of breakdown as a fairly generic term that means 'now we are going to play whatever we want, probably fairly fast'. Just to make it harder, some old traditional tunes are mislabeled, such as the "Rustic Reel" which is actually a jig.

Tractor1 - Posted - 07/26/2021:  07:06:57

It depends on the genre and era. These categories change over time and with location ,seasoned with a little commercial pitching . Your definitions fit a good percentage of modern celtic writings. except for breakdown which is a hillbilly term for a square rigged reel going so fast it is hitting on 2 beats instead of 4..then you have the afro-cuban clave influenced stuff and other types. A book could be written on this subject. But none of it is up for an exact answer imo

Joel Hooks - Posted - 07/26/2021:  07:42:57

quote:

---

Originally posted by FenderFred

quote:

---

Originally posted by lature

Traditional fiddle tunes are grouped into reels, hornpipes, breakdowns, jigs, ...



I was wondering what songs like "Shuckin The Corn" or "Foggy Mountain Special" would be called. "Shuckin" is fast, so perhaps a reel or breakdown. "Foggy" is slower with a lot of swing, so a "hornpipe?"



Or maybe there is some other classification for banjo songs???



What about standard bluegrass vocal tunes like "Blue Moon of Kentucky?" When Elvis did this song it might be "pop" but what about Bill Monroe's version?

---

Jigs, Reels, Hornpipes , Waltzes etc are dance steps. Since many of these Fiddle, Whistle & and Bagpipe tunes have their origins in Celtic music ie Scots/Irish I guess it was only inevitable they would find there way to be played on the banjo. We have Bill Keith to thank for that because he was the one who is best known to have figured a way to play fiddle tunes on the banjo. If your are interested in learning more about the Celtic style of playing go check out pickinlessons.com/  

Foggy Mountain Special is I believe linked to rock in roll - boogie woogie dance steps

Blue Moon of Kentucky is a Waltz which switches from a slow tempo to a fast tempo with a time signature change 3/4 to 4/4 thrown in for good measure.

Foggy I believe has more to do with the mist on the mountains a feature of the Blue Ridge Mountains., and shuckin as the name suggests airing the corn mash - a process in whisky making. Search Goolge for Malting process.

---

Yes, Bill Keith was the first one to ever play "fiddle tunes" on the banjo...

archive.org/details/briggsbanjoinstr00brig

archive.org/details/phil-rice-banjo-1858

archive.org/details/Converse1865Green

archive.org/details/buckleysbanjogui00buck

archive.org/details/FBCBanjo1871

archive.org/details/TheBanjoist

archive.org/details/230easypiecesfor00conv

archive.org/details/CarlFischerTutor

archive.org/details/turners101...ornpipesc

archive.org/details/BanjoFavoritesBickford

Would you like more?  I have a LOT more than this.

Tractor1 - Posted - 07/26/2021:  07:54:37

Wow, such a thorough kind explanation. reminds me of my own Monday morning self. ""best known'' might still win the cigar though---- not that I put Vess or Bill in competition in my mind.

Joel Hooks - Posted - 07/26/2021:  08:07:19

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tractor1

Wow, such a thorough kind explanation. reminds me of my own Monday morning self. ""best known'' might still win the cigar though---- not that I put Vess or Bill in competition in my mind.

---

I suppose best known today (or rather 20 years ago) is totally correct.   But before WW2 and pick playing it was just what what was played on banjos. Everyone who played would have a handful of these under their fingers. 

Right! One of the best selling records was Ossman's Turkey in the Straw/Dixie Medley.

I've been told many times that Keith was the first to play "Sailor's Hornpipe" on banjo and revolutionized banjo playing

FenderFred - Posted - 07/26/2021:  08:30:45

quote:

---

Originally posted by Joel Hooks

quote:

---

Originally posted by FenderFred

quote:

---

Originally posted by lature

Traditional fiddle tunes are grouped into reels, hornpipes, breakdowns, jigs, ...



I was wondering what songs like "Shuckin The Corn" or "Foggy Mountain Special" would be called. "Shuckin" is fast, so perhaps a reel or breakdown. "Foggy" is slower with a lot of swing, so a "hornpipe?"



Or maybe there is some other classification for banjo songs???



What about standard bluegrass vocal tunes like "Blue Moon of Kentucky?" When Elvis did this song it might be "pop" but what about Bill Monroe's version?

---

Jigs, Reels, Hornpipes , Waltzes etc are dance steps. Since many of these Fiddle, Whistle & and Bagpipe tunes have their origins in Celtic music ie Scots/Irish I guess it was only inevitable they would find there way to be played on the banjo. We have Bill Keith to thank for that because he was the one who is best known to have figured a way to play fiddle tunes on the banjo. If your are interested in learning more about the Celtic style of playing go check out pickinlessons.com/  

Foggy Mountain Special is I believe linked to rock in roll - boogie woogie dance steps

Blue Moon of Kentucky is a Waltz which switches from a slow tempo to a fast tempo with a time signature change 3/4 to 4/4 thrown in for good measure.

Foggy I believe has more to do with the mist on the mountains a feature of the Blue Ridge Mountains., and shuckin as the name suggests airing the corn mash - a process in whisky making. Search Goolge for Malting process.

---

Yes, Bill Keith was the first one to ever play "fiddle tunes" on the banjo...

archive.org/details/briggsbanjoinstr00brig

archive.org/details/phil-rice-banjo-1858

archive.org/details/Converse1865Green

archive.org/details/buckleysbanjogui00buck

archive.org/details/FBCBanjo1871

archive.org/details/TheBanjoist

archive.org/details/230easypiecesfor00conv

archive.org/details/CarlFischerTutor

archive.org/details/turners101...ornpipesc

archive.org/details/BanjoFavoritesBickford

Would you like more?  I have a LOT more than this.

 

 

 

 

 

---

Yes on the 5 String perhaps, but these tunes are more commonly played on the Irish Tenor Banjo with a plectrum/flat pick. Which is much more suited to the Triplet/Tremolo style commonly found in Celtic tunes.

Also look to Classic Banjo Style - classic-banjo.ning.com/

Edited by - FenderFred on 07/26/2021 08:34:30

janolov - Posted - 07/26/2021:  08:33:22

quote:

---

Originally posted by FenderFred

 

 We have Bill Keith to thank for that because he was the one who is best known to have figured a way to play fiddle tunes on the banjo.

---

I don't know what you mean with Bill Keith and what it has to the OP's question do do.

 As Joel Hooks already said, fiddle tunes has been played on banjo long before Bill Keith. There are a lot of examples where the banjo play note by note the fiddle melody in minstrel banjo from 1850 to the end of the 1800's, classical banjo (about 1870 and forwards) as well as early string band music (both clawhammer and 2-/3-finger picking from the 20's and 30's). 

For the second, the original question was about  reels, hornpipes, breakdowns, jigs, and so on, which are dances. To play dances the banjo has not to duplicate the fiddle. I think there are a lot of good examples where the banjo support the fiddle (with both rhythm and harmony) rather than duplicate the fiddle. So if a tune/song is classified as  reels, hornpipes, breakdowns, jigs,has nothing to do if the banjo play fiddle tune or not.

FenderFred - Posted - 07/26/2021:  08:42:30

quote:

---

Originally posted by janolov

quote:

---

Originally posted by FenderFred

 

 We have Bill Keith to thank for that because he was the one who is best known to have figured a way to play fiddle tunes on the banjo.

---

I don't know what you mean with Bill Keith and what it has to the OP's question do do.

 As Joel Hooks already said, fiddle tunes has been played on banjo long before Bill Keith. There are a lot of examples where the banjo play note by note the fiddle melody in minstrel banjo from 1850 to the end of the 1800's, classical banjo (about 1870 and forwards) as well as early string band music (both clawhammer and 2-/3-finger picking from the 20's and 30's). 

For the second, the original question was about  reels, hornpipes, breakdowns, jigs, and so on, which are dances. To play dances the banjo has not to duplicate the fiddle. I think there are a lot of good examples where the banjo support the fiddle (with both rhythm and harmony) rather than duplicate the fiddle. So if a tune/song is classified as  reels, hornpipes, breakdowns, jigs,has nothing to do if the banjo play fiddle tune or not.

---

I agree with you Janolov - But Bill Keith is the one most credited with introducing fiddle tunes to the banjo in a melodic style. He is after all an American and that's the reason he stands out. It's often forgotten that much of the music in America has it's roots in Europe. 

Tractor1 - Posted - 07/26/2021:  10:05:25

you guys are throwing the'' best known'' part away . HE DID NOT say first. Besides that, The fiddlers might have stolen from the pipers and they were not even fiddle creations in the get go.
Now my turn to pick on Bill's rendition of a hornpipe WHERE IS THE LILT ?
Goes to show how the public knows what to sweep ,under the rug.

Joel Hooks - Posted - 07/26/2021:  10:25:46

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tractor1

you guys are throwing the'' best known'' part away . HE DID NOT say first. Besides that, The fiddlers might have stolen from the pipers and they were not even fiddle creations in the get go.

Now my turn to pick on Bill's rendition of a hornpipe WHERE IS THE LILT ?

Goes to show how the public knows what to sweep ,under the rug.

---

I'm agreeing with you, Keith is the best know among people who play or are enthusiasts of bluegrass style banjo. 

Most people outside of bluegrass banjo players might be hard pressed to know who he was.

The rest of the world might not care or even associates the banjo with anything but "Dueling Banjos" and the horror movie "Deliverance", or in more recent times Mumford and Sons, Steve Martin, or Rhiannon Giddens

lature - Posted - 07/26/2021:  10:41:55

"WHERE IS THE LILT ?"

That's a good point. Classifying a tune as a hornpipe is only a recommendation. You can always play it fast (like a reel) and lose all the LILT. Bill Keith should have called his version, "Sailor's Reel."

csacwp - Posted - 07/26/2021:  10:49:05

quote:

---

Originally posted by FenderFred

quote:

---

Originally posted by janolov

quote:

---

Originally posted by FenderFred

 

 We have Bill Keith to thank for that because he was the one who is best known to have figured a way to play fiddle tunes on the banjo.

---

I don't know what you mean with Bill Keith and what it has to the OP's question do do.

 As Joel Hooks already said, fiddle tunes has been played on banjo long before Bill Keith. There are a lot of examples where the banjo play note by note the fiddle melody in minstrel banjo from 1850 to the end of the 1800's, classical banjo (about 1870 and forwards) as well as early string band music (both clawhammer and 2-/3-finger picking from the 20's and 30's). 

For the second, the original question was about  reels, hornpipes, breakdowns, jigs, and so on, which are dances. To play dances the banjo has not to duplicate the fiddle. I think there are a lot of good examples where the banjo support the fiddle (with both rhythm and harmony) rather than duplicate the fiddle. So if a tune/song is classified as  reels, hornpipes, breakdowns, jigs,has nothing to do if the banjo play fiddle tune or not.

---

I agree with you Janolov - But Bill Keith is the one most credited with introducing fiddle tunes to the banjo in a melodic style. He is after all an American and that's the reason he stands out. It's often forgotten that much of the music in America has it's roots in Europe. 

---

Were Briggs, Buckley, Converse, Ossman, and the like not Americans?

Alex Z - Posted - 07/26/2021:  13:44:18

Mr. Bill's contribution was not that he played a fiddle tune on a banjo.  Nothing special about that, whether played on 5-string, tenor, plectrum, mandolin, guitar, ukulele, bouzouki, balalaika, or oud. 

The contribution was the fluidity of the technique he developed for the 5-string -- playing higher notes on lower strings which allowed more use of open strings in between fretted strings and thus allowed the fretted notes to be held longer.  The entire tune just flows along at whatever speed you want.  No staccato notes as in the single-string technique -- instead, there is sustain and openness to the sound, longer phrasing.

Now, others were beginning to do this as well -- Carroll Best comes to mind.  Mr. Bill had the platform in the Bluegrass Boys to get people to listen and copy, and the smoothness and musicality of his playing, to me, sets him apart as the main innovator.

He said once in a workshop I attended, "If there are two notes in a scale that match two open notes on the banjo, I can play [comfortably] in that key [without a capo]."   A extraordinary and creative musician.

Dan Gellert - Posted - 07/26/2021:  15:02:56

According to the usual nomenclature currently used by Irish musicians, pretty much all the standard American OT dance tunes are being played as reels, even if the title includes "hornpipe". Although Irish hornpipes vary a lot in their rhythm and phrasing, most would be called "schottisches" by an American traditional fiddler, IF s/he's from a community where the schottische is actually danced! (If not, "schottische", like "hornpipe" or "jig", may just be part of a title, without any significance as to the nature of the tune.)

In my entirely subjective experience, among the popular Southern dance tunes which are clearly based on a particular Irish or Scots tune, at least as many seem to have originally been hornpipes as reels, though I doubt that anyone could classify them as such from only hearing the American versions...

Irish musicians I've known will sometimes play a hornpipe and then the same tune as a reel. It's possible that's an American influence, or maybe Scottish-- the classic Scots fiddle showpiece is a reel preceded by its setting as a strathspey (which is pretty much a hornpipe, with a bit more of a jagged edge to the rhythm).

Tractor1 - Posted - 07/26/2021:  15:42:55

then we have--shuffle vs, swing vs bounce vs scotch snap vs 4/4 with a bunch of dotted notes

Tractor1 - Posted - 07/26/2021:  15:48:46

Sometimes the magic is what the switched emphasis brings out ,making a song that has to be played slow for clarity come to frustration as great music. Great music instead of the painful practice sound when played straight . I tend to think some, might have been written that way.

Joel Hooks - Posted - 07/26/2021:  17:46:44

Attached is a medley complete with a "tuning up" fiddle imitation intro, and "shave and a hair cut" type break ending from 1906.

Edited by - Joel Hooks on 07/26/2021 17:47:14

At a Husking Bee Fred Bacon

 

Tractor1 - Posted - 07/26/2021:  19:03:28

husking and shucking are the same thing , in my mind anyway.

 A lot of key and time signature changing there Joel. It seems it would be hard as a jam piece for mere mortals .  Was the fiddle suppose to be tuning to E major?

Edited by - Tractor1 on 07/26/2021 19:12:56

G Edward Porgie - Posted - 07/26/2021:  19:06:33

One should take note of Joel's PDF. Portions of "At a Husking Bee"are in 6/8, others in common time.

Meter and rhythm are the primary differnces between jigs, reels, and hornpipes. If a tune isn't in a compound meter, such as 6/8. then it's technically not a "jig." Although both reels and hornpipes are in simple rhythms like 2/4 or 4/4, generally speaking, a hornpipe uses more dotted notes.

Playing a jig in 4/4 time turns it into some other dance form. And even if a 'jig" is played in it's original 6/8 meter, but ungodly fast, it's still a jig, not a reel.

Perhaps fiddle tunes played on the banjo (or pipe tunes) should just be titled as they were originally. A banjo solo written for banjo, however, should take into account what the composer is trying to accomplish and not be pushed into some arbitrary category by a later player based on tempo, rhythm, or "bounce."

Joel Hooks - Posted - 07/26/2021:  20:08:39

The Bacon piece is published in A notation. There is a long explanation as to what that means and if you are having trouble sleeping I’ll be happy to post an article I wrote on the subject that goes into great detail.

Basically, while written in the key of A, the banjo actually sounds in C when played. E=G, D=F and so on.

A notation and the change over to C, I believe, was the death blow that killed the regular banjo and pushed the plectrum to the front.

Joel Hooks - Posted - 07/26/2021:  20:15:23

Here is another Bacon medley that was published in both A notation, again, despite the key on the music, the banjo sounds in the keys of C, G, and F.

archive.org/details/NewAndRevi.../mode/2up

Tractor1 - Posted - 07/26/2021:  21:46:09

Sometimes I am seeing 4 sharps then sometimes 3 sharps so if it is all in A I guess it is along the line of a transposing instrument ,but I am plenty sleepy and not chompin at the bit to throw down on some Fred right now.So don't waste your time on that. I  already know them ,anyway,except Cambells are coming .

I guess with enough shuffle one could morph back and forth between 2/4 and 6/8

Edited by - Tractor1 on 07/26/2021 21:52:25

FenderFred - Posted - 07/27/2021:  01:56:38

quote:

---

Originally posted by csacwp

quote:

---

Originally posted by FenderFred

quote:

---

Originally posted by janolov

quote:

---

Originally posted by FenderFred

 

 We have Bill Keith to thank for that because he was the one who is best known to have figured a way to play fiddle tunes on the banjo.

---

I don't know what you mean with Bill Keith and what it has to the OP's question do do.

 As Joel Hooks already said, fiddle tunes has been played on banjo long before Bill Keith. There are a lot of examples where the banjo play note by note the fiddle melody in minstrel banjo from 1850 to the end of the 1800's, classical banjo (about 1870 and forwards) as well as early string band music (both clawhammer and 2-/3-finger picking from the 20's and 30's). 

For the second, the original question was about  reels, hornpipes, breakdowns, jigs, and so on, which are dances. To play dances the banjo has not to duplicate the fiddle. I think there are a lot of good examples where the banjo support the fiddle (with both rhythm and harmony) rather than duplicate the fiddle. So if a tune/song is classified as  reels, hornpipes, breakdowns, jigs,has nothing to do if the banjo play fiddle tune or not.

---

I agree with you Janolov - But Bill Keith is the one most credited with introducing fiddle tunes to the banjo in a melodic style. He is after all an American and that's the reason he stands out. It's often forgotten that much of the music in America has it's roots in Europe. 

---

Were Briggs, Buckley, Converse, Ossman, and the like not Americans?

---

Never heard of any of these guys, and I guess that is why Bill Keith stood out so much. I am not advocating that Bill was the ONLY one who played fiddle tunes on the banjo merely that he has been given credit for his personal accomplishments NOT BY ME but other great banjo players. If you really feel strongly about these banjo players having a role in the history of banjo players don't slap me down because of my ignorance. Go re-write history, shout it load and clear from the top of the Blue Ridge Mountains if you want to make a statement, frankly I don't give a hoot. 

Edited by - FenderFred on 07/27/2021 01:58:33

Joel Hooks - Posted - 07/27/2021:  04:24:53

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tractor1

Sometimes I am seeing 4 sharps then sometimes 3 sharps so if it is all in A I guess it is along the line of a transposing instrument ,but I am plenty sleepy and not chompin at the bit to throw down on some Fred right now.So don't waste your time on that. I  already know them ,anyway,except Cambells are coming .

I guess with enough shuffle one could morph back and forth between 2/4 and 6/8

---

The banjo is pitched to C but the music is written as if it is pitched in A.  This dates back the the second instruction book and continued until 1908/1909+.

When you see 4 sharps the banjo is playing in G, two sharps and the banjo is playing in F.

Joel Hooks - Posted - 07/27/2021:  08:00:18

Back to the OP (more or less). Based on the school of "Irish Session" playing, there seems to be strict definitions for what a "jig", "reel", "hornpipe", etc. is.

The interesting thing is that these rules seem to be applied to the past when the past did not seem to care.

In the examples of banjo music I posted first (which is just a fraction of what was published), a "Jig" could be in 2/4 or 6/8. It does not seem to matter.

One class of "jig" that was extremely popular with banjo was the "minor jig". This was a genre of music that is mostly set in C minor (post 1884 pitch) and would modulate to 4 flats for the trio in more fleshed out compositions. These are often in 2/4. And there were a lot of them published, some were extremely popular (like "Horace Weston's Minor Jig").

When were these rules of Irish Session playing established? Is applying these rules to the past another example of presentism and revisionist history?

lature - Posted - 07/27/2021:  08:10:16

I'm not sure how this thread got turned upside down. I guess the original question was a little boring :-)

However, I think I have an answer to what was confusing me.

First, a song's name doesn't mean anything. "Randy Lynn Rag" is not a rag and "Salty Dog Blues" is not a blues. Both are reels, or maybe hornpipes, depending on how you play them.

Second, categorizing "Randy Lynn Rag" as a reel would just confuse people.

Third, categorizing songs is a very involved process that requires a serious understanding of music and music history. I just read something on how to categorize "rags" -- ten different flavors at least. I'm not convinced I could tell them apart even if I did care. So if the categories themselves are so confusing that only a few musicologists could possibly understand them, what's the point.

So for fiddle tunes I'm going to use the "most common" category for the tune used in fiddle books/web sites. So "Sailor's Hornpipe" would be a hornpipe even though Bill Keith played it as a breakdown/reel.

For banjo tunes I'm going to use the category "other". So "Shuckin the Corn" is not a reel or breakdown, it's an "other." This makes more sense to me because banjo tunes really are a uniquely impossible thing to describe.

Tractor1 - Posted - 07/27/2021:  09:32:07

I guess you are referring to the submitting pages here. Very little if any is going to get any dispute or credence if--correct or not. For me that is. I never search by these categories. I just go to the latest.
A lot of so called genres have subdivisions probably caused by getting handed around and individual touches showing up. Ragtime and rags,blues,fiddle styles-- jazz etc. all went forth and multiplied

Professor Jive - Posted - 07/27/2021:  09:35:49

quote:

---

Originally posted by Joel Hooks

quote:

---

Originally posted by FenderFred

quote:

---

Originally posted by lature

Traditional fiddle tunes are grouped into reels, hornpipes, breakdowns, jigs, ...



I was wondering what songs like "Shuckin The Corn" or "Foggy Mountain Special" would be called. "Shuckin" is fast, so perhaps a reel or breakdown. "Foggy" is slower with a lot of swing, so a "hornpipe?"



Or maybe there is some other classification for banjo songs???



What about standard bluegrass vocal tunes like "Blue Moon of Kentucky?" When Elvis did this song it might be "pop" but what about Bill Monroe's version?

---

Jigs, Reels, Hornpipes , Waltzes etc are dance steps. Since many of these Fiddle, Whistle & and Bagpipe tunes have their origins in Celtic music ie Scots/Irish I guess it was only inevitable they would find there way to be played on the banjo. We have Bill Keith to thank for that because he was the one who is best known to have figured a way to play fiddle tunes on the banjo. If your are interested in learning more about the Celtic style of playing go check out pickinlessons.com/  

Foggy Mountain Special is I believe linked to rock in roll - boogie woogie dance steps

Blue Moon of Kentucky is a Waltz which switches from a slow tempo to a fast tempo with a time signature change 3/4 to 4/4 thrown in for good measure.

Foggy I believe has more to do with the mist on the mountains a feature of the Blue Ridge Mountains., and shuckin as the name suggests airing the corn mash - a process in whisky making. Search Goolge for Malting process.

---

Yes, Bill Keith was the first one to ever play "fiddle tunes" on the banjo...

archive.org/details/briggsbanjoinstr00brig

archive.org/details/phil-rice-banjo-1858

archive.org/details/Converse1865Green

archive.org/details/buckleysbanjogui00buck

archive.org/details/FBCBanjo1871

archive.org/details/TheBanjoist

archive.org/details/230easypiecesfor00conv

archive.org/details/CarlFischerTutor

archive.org/details/turners101...ornpipesc

archive.org/details/BanjoFavoritesBickford

Would you like more?  I have a LOT more than this.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

Some historical perspective is always a good thing. Thanks for the reminder. 

 

 

 

---

overhere - Posted - 07/29/2021:  04:26:03

simple....its called, [Bluegrass]

lature - Posted - 07/29/2021:  06:14:50

Here's another way to look at it.

Transcribe the fiddle break to a banjo song like "Shuckin the Corn" and submit it to a fiddle web site like "thesession.org"

You will have to select a song type from a list like this:

reel, hornpipe, breakdown, waltz, jig, slip jig, polka, rag,
strathspey, air, march, mazurka, barn dance, slide, three-two, other

For whatever reason, classifying songs has always been important to fiddle players. Banjo players don't seem to care, or maybe they just think differently about things?

Tractor1 - Posted - 07/29/2021:  06:46:46

some get geographical also.

overhere - Posted - 08/21/2021:  13:45:52

my first recollection with and I think the first recordings of melodic was from Bobby Thompson...somehow Bill Keith got the upper hand maybe for the fact that Bobby mostly was a studio musician and Bill Keith had Bill Monroe's popularity as a vehicle ...however I think Bobby played on recordings with Jim and Jesse before that.....and Don Reno needs some credit there also. (if we are talking pure Bluegrass.) I read way long ago Bobby wasn't trying to play fiddle per-say he developed the style because he was looking for a way to play more of the melody notes in the music with the banjo and still keep it bluegrass.. Bobby was a pure innovator king.

banjola1 - Posted - 09/02/2021:  00:16:17

Carol Best - (A guy)

Played a great number of fiddle tunes on a Vega open back banjo. (Tubaphone or Whyte Laydie?)

Probably before Bill.

Pat -

Ira Gitlin - Posted - 09/02/2021:  06:56:26

Banjo tunes can't all be lumped together under a single heading like "reel" or "hornpipe". Some are structured like fiddle tunes, with short, musically dense phrases. (In this regard, reels, hornpipes, jigs, etc. are all similar to each other.) Most bluegrass banjo tunes (e.g., "Foggy Mountain Breakdown", "Randy Lynn Rag") are structured more like songs, having longer lines with space at the end. (Listen for something along the lines of a "tag lick" phrase; often that will signal the end of a line.)

RB3 - Posted - 09/02/2021:  11:23:10

I like your observation about the tag licks, Ira. I've always assumed that Scruggs figured out his own way to play those songs and when he accumulated enough of his own licks, he started composing instrumentals. It makes sense that his compositions would include the tag licks.

An observation that I've made, is that Monroe's instrumentals often did not include tag licks at the end of the phrases. I suspect that he thought they were superfluous.

The distinction on the use of tag licks might provide a clue about who actually wrote certain important instrumentals. I'm thinking Bluegrass Breakdown and Foggy Mountain Breakdown.

Ira Gitlin - Posted - 09/02/2021:  16:14:05

Which Monroe instrumentals were you thinking of, RB3 ? "Big Mon"? "Old Dangerfield"? "Gold Rush"? Lots of Monroe instrumentals are structured like fiddle tunes. They lack tag licks NOT because Monroe thought such licks were superfluous, but because the typical fiddle tune phrasing simply doesn't have any room for them. If we were discussing this in person, it'd be easier to make this point clearly.

The question of who wrote "BG BD" is a musico-historical can of worms. There's a good case to be made for Scruggs authorship, but devoted Monroe partisans regard any such suggestion as heresy. ;^)

Tractor1 - Posted - 09/02/2021:  17:29:52

I never thought about the difference much  concerning Ira's point ---and the fact that Earl type breakdowns were built like pop arrangements.  hmmm

Oniell'S 1850 also had a song section come to think of it. It had about ''all' the usual time signatures within. Playing them is sometimes,easier than explaining them.

Edited by - Tractor1 on 09/02/2021 17:37:48