sethb - Posted - 07/08/2021:  04:34:50

I've started to work on the 1938 tune "Thanks for the Memory," in the key of G (1 sharp).  When I hit the bridge, there's a transition chord of F major that takes you into a Bb chord (but not a key change).  Then the refrain goes back to the G chord progression for the end of the song. 

The bridge certainly feels like a key change (and sounds very neat), but it isn't; the key remains the key of G for the entire song.  Can someone explain what's going on here musically?  Thanks!  SETH

Edited by - Texasbanjo on 07/08/2021 04:38:54

Texasbanjo - Posted - 07/08/2021:  04:38:42

This sounds more like a music theory question than anything else. I'll move it to the music theory forum where you'll probably get lots of answers and variations on why.

Ira Gitlin - Posted - 07/08/2021:  06:38:21

That happens in a lot of songs from that period, especially in the bridge. I guess you could say it IS temporarily in a different key, but because it'll be back in the original key in four or eight bars or so, it's simpler and easier to use accidentals rather than to notate a key change.

WVDreamin - Posted - 07/08/2021:  06:41:12

The bridge is a temporary key change. Not all that uncommon. The actual key depends on the other notes used during it, but it could be G major to minor, or to F or Bb.

I see we're all on it at once 

Edited by - WVDreamin on 07/08/2021 06:42:01

sethb - Posted - 07/08/2021:  07:26:04

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ira Gitlin

That happens in a lot of songs from that period, especially in the bridge. I guess you could say it IS temporarily in a different key, but because it'll be back in the original key in four or eight bars or so, it's simpler and easier to use accidentals rather than to notate a key change.

---

Thanks, Ira, you confirmed what I suspected --- that it really was in a different key. 

I've seen a few tunes that actually do change keys from the verse to the chorus, such as "Alexander's Ragtime Band" and "Beer Barrel Polka."  But this was the first time I'd heard a key change in the bridge, and going from G to Bb was an unusual and interesting jump, I would not have thought of doing that!  SETH  

Edited by - sethb on 07/08/2021 07:29:18

Ira Gitlin - Posted - 07/08/2021:  07:50:44

"Beer Barrel Polka" represents a different situation. It's a multi-strain piece, and one strain ("Roll out the barrel....") is indeed entirely in an different key from the other two strains.



This kind of thing happens all the time in Joplin rags, Sousa marches, and Strauss waltzes. They'll start out in one key and halfway through or so there'll be new strains in another key--usually the subdominant (IV) key. And the sheet music will show a change in the key signature.



Check out--to cite a couple of well-known examples--"Maple Leaf Rag" and "The Stars And Stripes Forever".



youtube.com/watch?v=pMAtL7n_-rc



youtu.be/a-7XWhyvIpE?t=56

Edited by - Ira Gitlin on 07/08/2021 08:01:47

trapdoor2 - Posted - 07/08/2021:  08:20:26

Popular music often takes cues from classical forms.

Look up "ternary form" vs "complex ternary form".

I agree, the bridge has a temporary key shift. Up to the publisher how to actually notate it.

lature - Posted - 07/08/2021:  13:13:07

I doubt in 1938 the original transcription had guitar chords. Perhaps, whoever was first to add guitar chords made a mistake. Maybe, F to Bb is not F to Bb. The following Ab may not be Ab. If you select chords from the key of G and add Bb and Ab to them you will stay in the same key as written and the song will make total sense. The composer of this tune was a serious musician so I doubt he missed the key change by mistake. It is possible there was a transcription error but I doubt it. Time to explore an alternate chord progression and stay true to the original transcription. For example, F to Bb may be some flavor of G7 to C7.

G Edward Porgie - Posted - 07/08/2021:  15:33:50

quote:

---

Originally posted by lature

I doubt in 1938 the original transcription had guitar chords. Perhaps, whoever was first to add guitar chords made a mistake. Maybe, F to Bb is not F to Bb. The following Ab may not be Ab. If you select chords from the key of G and add Bb and Ab to them you will stay in the same key as written and the song will make total sense. The composer of this tune was a serious musician so I doubt he missed the key change by mistake. It is possible there was a transcription error but I doubt it. Time to explore an alternate chord progression and stay true to the original transcription. For example, F to Bb may be some flavor of G7 to C7.

---

Totally not true. G7 isn't even close to F (the only common note is the F), and C7 is nowhere near to Bb (only common note is the Bb). There is no mistake here, either in transposition or notation, nor any question of the composer's intent. This can easily be verified by playing the chords you have suggested instead of those in the sheet music, and listening to how "off" it sounds.

sethb - Posted - 07/08/2021:  16:16:12

quote:

---

Originally posted by lature

I doubt in 1938 the original transcription had guitar chords. Perhaps, whoever was first to add guitar chords made a mistake. 

---

Although I was working from a newer lead sheet and haven't seen the original sheet music, I'd be very surprised if it didn't also include the chord changes.  Music publishers started to add chord changes to sheet music in the mid-1920's, so by 1938, it would have been standard practice for quite a while. 

In any event, I tend to agree with an earlier post, which said that it was probably simpler and easier to use accidentals rather than to notate a key change.  That explanation makes the most sense to me. 

Since I only know enough music theory to be dangerous (!), it just caught me off guard to apparently hear a key change but not see one appear in the key signature.   SETH 

lature - Posted - 07/09/2021:  03:30:06

"it just caught me off guard to apparently hear a key change but not see one appear in the key signature"

I thought you must have been working from a bad transcription. However "temp/invisible" key signatures are a thing I never knew about. Live and learn. What a great song writing trick.

Ira Gitlin - Posted - 07/09/2021:  06:43:23

A classic (?) example is "Body And Soul", which has an AABA structure. (Bluegrass friends: No, NOT the Bill Monroe "Body And Soul"!) It's in D-flat, but the first half of the bridge is in D-natural, and the second half of the bridge is in C-natural. Then it cleverly works its way back to the home key for the final A-part.

This:

youtube.com/watch?v=zUFg6HvljDE,

not this:

youtube.com/watch?v=P7WBbWDmbq0.