Aradobanjo - Posted - 07/01/2021:  12:53:51

Hello,

I picked up the Book and started reading. I like the book. I came away with a possible missing Law. A law could be based on the quality of the instrument to spend (on average) 10,000 hours of intimate playing.

Professional players have action which seems lower than Build-Repair recommendations. Radiused finger boards, custom necks with wider fretboards, substantially cocked pegheads, and tall bridges are all what today’s pros play.

Shouldn’t this missing law be based on getting a custom configuration banjo which meets you needs first before spending 10,000 hrs avg on said instrument?

Thoughts?

tbchappe - Posted - 07/01/2021:  13:32:18

Maybe I'm missing the point you're making, but...

I still play golf with Taylormade Firesole woods and Taylormade RAC irons from the early 2000s. I still play as well as any other player out there paying to play, and I still whip my brother even though he plays 6 days a week and has the latest and greatest clubs, based on what the pros are using, and I play maybe twice a year?

Doesn't Adam Hurt play with a relatively unaltered antique Dobson with patent Silver Bell tone ring? I don't think I really pay attention to what others are using necessarily. Of course, I'm not a professional by any stretch of the imagination.

I imagine some of these banjos are customized and altered to improve an individuals ergonomics, based on their individual play style and the repetition? I mean, I play A LOT, but they play for a living. I think that trumps whatever I have to say.



Interesting topic.



Blaine

Edited by - tbchappe on 07/01/2021 13:33:41

pjfolino - Posted - 07/01/2021:  17:16:26

I'm still an amateur, but one thing I've learnt is my time is better spent with deliberate practice than worrying about set-up, testing new bridges, playing around with head tension. Set it, and forget it IMHO.

G Edward Porgie - Posted - 07/01/2021:  19:52:38

I seriously doubt that those pros had customized banjos for the first 10,000 hours they spent learning to be the musicians they are today.

tbchappe - Posted - 07/01/2021:  19:56:28

Agreed. They probably started with some hunk of junk like the rest of us plebs.

Edited by - tbchappe on 07/01/2021 19:56:54

jacot23 - Posted - 07/01/2021:  20:44:10

Like others have said practice with what you have as long it stays in tune.

Now if you just want a reason to buy another banjo, I'm more than happy to agree and tell you that should be a law and you should go buy one to your specs ;)

banjoak - Posted - 07/02/2021:  03:55:03

The 10,000 hours thing can be misinterpreted and overrated (and other aspects underrated)

Generallties: there is no number that something magically happens but; one tends to get better the more they do something; better players have put in much more time. But it's also about how and what of the hours, many players have played for decades (perhaps 10,000 hours), yet are not considered at master level.

As far as the specific instrument... that's just a tool... not the skill.

Edited by - banjoak on 07/02/2021 03:58:07

Texasbanjo - Posted - 07/02/2021:  04:39:07

I've always said people should buy the best banjo the can afford. A better banjo is easier to tune, easier to fret and pick and just sounds better.

Having said that, I learned on an inexpensive, entry level banjo with no tone ring and a tinny sound. I had no idea what I wanted in a banjo, how it was supposed to sound or how easy or difficult it would be to tune pick and fret.

After several years, I then got an expensive banjo and was amazed not only at the weight but at the fantastic sound. It made me want to play it more and more, practice and get better and better.

Aradobanjo - Posted - 07/02/2021:  10:39:50

Hello,

I learned on a Gretsch perch pole Bakelite rimmed banjo were the neck to perch pole was hollowed out. When it died, I picked up a Gold Star GF-100-FE. Then, I really practiced.

My current instrument is An 2005 RB12. I spend time with it. I customized it the meet my needs. Take a good look at Pat Cloud, Bela Fleck, and Noam Pickelny videos of their banjo playing.

Bela specifically states his tricked out preferences. His DVD is my reason to look for a TT banjo.

Old Hickory - Posted - 07/06/2021:  08:37:28

quote:

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Originally posted by Aradobanjo

Professional players have action which seems lower than Build-Repair recommendations. Radiused finger boards, custom necks with wider fretboards, substantially cocked pegheads, and tall bridges are all what today’s pros play.

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If we consider 1/8-inch at 12th (or 22nd) fret "build-repair recommendation," then the table of 60-some 20th century banjo players in Masters of the Five String banjo revealed plenty of them preferring higher than builder recommended action. Gibson spec used to be a hair lower than that.

I think your observation is way too broad.  Plenty of pro players are playing necks with conventional nut widths of 1-3/16 to 1-1/4.  Maybe the occasional wider nut. A fair number play radiused necks. And some with 24 frets.

The only "law" about the quality of instrument should be that an instrument has to work with you, not against you. If there's anything about the instrument's design or set-up that keeps you from playing clean, in-tune, notes; achieving a range of tones; being heard when you play with others; or becoming the best player you can be, then it's the wrong instrument for you.

Aradobanjo - Posted - 07/07/2021:  13:54:30

quote:

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Originally posted by Old Hickory

quote:

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Originally posted by Aradobanjo

Professional players have action which seems lower than Build-Repair recommendations. Radiused finger boards, custom necks with wider fretboards, substantially cocked pegheads, and tall bridges are all what today’s pros play.

---

If we consider 1/8-inch at 12th (or 22nd) fret "build-repair recommendation," then the table of 60-some 20th century banjo players in Masters of the Five String banjo revealed plenty of them preferring higher than builder recommended action. Gibson spec used to be a hair lower than that.

I think your observation is way too broad.  Plenty of pro players are playing necks with conventional nut widths of 1-3/16 to 1-1/4.  Maybe the occasional wider nut. A fair number play radiused necks. And some with 24 frets.

The only "law" about the quality of instrument should be that an instrument has to work with you, not against you. If there's anything about the instrument's design or set-up that keeps you from playing clean, in-tune, notes; achieving a range of tones; being heard when you play with others; or becoming the best player you can be, then it's the wrong instrument for you.

 

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Hello Ken,

Bela Fleck claimed in his video that he preferred a modern neck built to his needs. "I prefer a radius neck so that I can have more space to dig out notes."  He also prefers a wider neck. Robin Smith's custom neck for Noam Pickelny is not a standard neck. 

True, players of the 20th played on stock instruments. Does that mean that everyone must play stock? 

If the players in the Masters of the Five had a choice between a modern neck built to their needs and stock, we know Earl's pick. LOL. He butchered his original neck.  He certainly sounded fine on the RB-11 and RB-3. But, that thick neck Granada was too much. 

 

As stated, Earl had brothers and sister to practice with. When picking is your only entertainment, either you get good or quit. Being invited to barn dances certainly provided emphasis to practice more. Repeat events made his experience blossom. 

Old Hickory - Posted - 07/07/2021:  20:04:30

quote:

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Originally posted by Aradobanjo 

True, players of the 20th played on stock instruments. Does that mean that everyone must play stock?  . . . If the players in the Masters of the Five had a choice between a modern neck built to their needs and stock, we know Earl's pick. LOL.. 

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John, I agree with all the things you said in the part I didn't quote. All I disagree with is the suggestion that I said the pro players in Masters (or not in the book, for that matter) play "stock" banjos.  I said "Plenty of pro players are playing banjos with conventional nut widths of 1-3/16 to 1-1/4. Maybe the occasional wider nut. A fair number play radiused necks." 

I wouldn't have said stock, since just about all the pros who played pre-war Gibsons were playing conversions with non-original 5-string necks. Some acquired their banjos already converted. Some had necks made to their specifications. Those aren't stock. I did say "conventional" because it's my belief -- unscientifically based on having read few interviews with pros talking about playing wider necks-- that the vast majority of those necks were 1-3/16 to 1-1/4. 

My recollection of the story of Bela Fleck's wider banjo neck is that Bela didn't ask for that; John Monteleone made it that way and Bela learned to like it. I could be remembering wrong.

Aradobanjo - Posted - 07/08/2021:  04:14:14

Hello Ken,



I am so glad we cleared our discussion up. I have Bela’s DVD. This is were he described his custom made banjo. The bridge is 1”. The peghead is at a steeper angle. The action is quite lower than my Gold Star. He said John Monteleone made this neck for him. He encourages us to contact John to get our special neck. LOL.



When I was learning, my banjo never sounded like who I was listening to. I soldiered on until I bought a new Gold Star. That was a night to day difference. But, the Gold Star was monolithic. I was hearing tones that it could not mimic.



Nut width is another option for big fingers. To me, the 1984 Gold Star had a narrow nut width. My fingers were crowded. But I had a banjo.



When I picked up the 2005 RB-12, the radiused neck was like the open West. Stuff I was practicing was so much easier to play. When I went from 12” to 7.5” radius, more real estate was possible. With these improvements, I can create what I need. Then, I knew why Bela made his choices.



Hence, my stab at adding a missing Brainjo law seemed necessary. Finding a banjo which meets our expectations seems crucial to meeting the 10,000 hours mark. Or Bill Kieth’s infinity ? x. (Infinity symbol = ?) 

Edited by - Aradobanjo on 07/08/2021 04:18:10

Old Hickory - Posted - 07/08/2021:  06:37:04

quote:

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Originally posted by Aradobanjo

I have Bela’s DVD. This is were he described his custom made banjo. The bridge is 1”. The peghead is at a steeper angle. The action is quite lower than my Gold Star. 

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In Masters of the 5-String Banjo, Bela reported his action at the 12th fret as 5/32-inch. I think "high" action begins at 3/16. But that's just my opinion. He also reported the 1-inch bridge (7/8-inch at the sides, since it's radiused).  In my experience, 5/32 at 12th fret will still be below 3/16 at the 22nd (where I prefer to measure action).

36 of the 68 players surveyed said the neck of their main banjo was made at a different time and place than the pot. 35 of the pots were pre-war Gibsons. Only 6 of those were coupled with their original necks.

Old Hickory - Posted - 07/08/2021:  08:31:18

quote:

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Originally posted by Old Hickory

36 of the 68 players surveyed said the neck of their main banjo was made at a different time and place than the pot. 35 of the pots were pre-war Gibsons. Only 6 of those were coupled with their original necks.

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Just to clarify:  The 35 pots that were pre-war Gibson were 35 out of the the total 68. Not 35 of the 36 pots not coupled with their original necks.

Aradobanjo - Posted - 07/08/2021:  08:55:18

Hello,

Ah. Math 6/32 is bigger the 5/32 by 1/32. Mine was bigger than both. So, Bela had to have a custom neck to have that clearance with a 1” bridge. 3 degrees is supposed to be the 5/8” bridge height.

If 4 to 5 degrees, then a 1” is workable given a G# tension. In the Tony Trischka interview, Bela likes F to F#. A lower tension needs a taller bridge. I use 11/16”. 5/16” is a big movement at 3 degrees neck angle.

His video shows a custom bridge. That is very tall and skinny. More mass is between the ebony and the feet. It certainly sounds like a good banjo with this configuration. It works for him.

Enfield1858 - Posted - 08/02/2021:  06:03:15

@Old Hickory - "The only "law" about the quality of instrument should be that an instrument has to work with you, not against you. If there's anything about the instrument's design or set-up that keeps you from playing clean, in-tune, notes; achieving a range of tones; being heard when you play with others; or becoming the best player you can be, then it's the wrong instrument for you."

You've summed it up perfectly for me, Ken.

With best regards,

Jack