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finger-picker - Posted - 05/15/2021: 05:33:14
I'm teaching myself one of Vivaldi's concertos for solo banjo (RV 356) but about mid way through the concerto I realized the lowest note is a G. I assume I have 2 choices:
1) Either raise the entire piece up to a key that I can play its range more easily (if possible), or
2) Lower my 4th string down to a G (if possible, never tried it)
Is that the gist of it?
Zachary Hoyt - Posted - 05/15/2021: 05:55:30
Or just play that one note an octave out of place. It will not sound the same, but it will not be discordant.
Tractor1 - Posted - 05/15/2021: 06:20:48
It depends a bit on the note's role in the piece.imo. What you say about hits the nail on the head.Sometimes I raise the whole phrase an octave. Seeing the notation would possibly ,add things to the details
mike gregory - Posted - 05/15/2021: 06:43:12
What a perfect excuse to buy another banjo!
When you are about to perform Vivaldi's piece, tuck wadded padding under all but the 4th string, tune the 4th to the required G, lay the banjo on the floor (on a suitable pad, of course!).
Take off one shoe, sit comfortably, play the piece, and when the low G is needed, strum the string with your toe.
I offer this advice, not as a command, but, obviously, merely as a footnote. 
Ira Gitlin - Posted - 05/15/2021: 07:21:31
I see three notes that lie outside the banjo's range: an A in bar 17, a G in bar 20, and a B in bar 34. They all occur in similar passages, where they're not part of a linear melody, but are preceded and followed by big jumps. In that context, I think it'd be fine to play them an octave higher than in the original score.
Edited by - Ira Gitlin on 05/15/2021 07:21:47
Alvin Conder - Posted - 05/15/2021: 08:40:33
Buy a Theorbo.
People seem to be pretty impressed when someone pulls one of those out of a case, unlike a banjo.....
janolov - Posted - 05/15/2021: 08:44:49
I agree with Ira Gitlin. In this tune you just can play these three notes one octave higher. I think there are very few persons that would discover this if they were listen to you.
G Edward Porgie - Posted - 05/15/2021: 11:09:02
I also agree with Ira Gitlin. I also agree with Jan that "very few people would discover this..." unless perhaps they had thorough knowledge of the piece.
Tractor1 - Posted - 05/15/2021: 11:26:28
yep that is why I asked for the score,but seeing it was Ira answering I knew it was well covered and no need to dig deeper
struggle_bus - Posted - 05/15/2021: 12:39:26
Just bump it up and octave, and I think you'll be fine. It's baroque, so if anybody has a problem with it, just tell them it's an embellishment.
finger-picker - Posted - 05/16/2021: 04:13:02
Thanks all, that's what I'll do, a lot simpler than trying to redo the piece with transposing, changing tunings, or buying/changing instruments.
mike gregory - Posted - 05/16/2021: 07:37:58
quote:
Originally posted by Alvin Conder
Buy a Theorbo.
People seem to be pretty impressed when someone pulls one of those out of a case, unlike a banjo.....
Oh, my my!
Oh, HELL yes!!
Ira Gitlin - Posted - 05/16/2021: 07:53:17
quote:
Originally posted by Tractor1
yep that is why I asked for the score,but seeing it was Ira answering I knew it was well covered and no need to dig deeper
Aw, shucks....
Edited by - Ira Gitlin on 05/16/2021 07:53:36
finger-picker - Posted - 05/16/2021: 09:53:29
quote:
Originally posted by aintbrokejustbadlybent
finger-picker
I sure would like to hear it once you are up and running with the tune.
It's a really pretty song, I will record myself once I get up to a reasonable tempo. I've recorded several other classical pieces already if you want to peruse my library on the Hangout or on Youtube. Not professional/performance worthy recordings but benchmarks to which I can learn and grow from:
youtube.com/channel/UCbdv7RfXy...PwHTTEZUA
Tractor1 - Posted - 05/16/2021: 10:30:46
Nice ,You certainly show you know what to do,some are polished some need a bit more( millions hours of practice) to go into the realm of polished ,but man that is one tall hill you are climbing. .All of my music needs work so this ain't an expert pointing downward..I especially like that minuet in A on the front page the way it morphs to the minor. John Mkuen with Nitty Gritty has a bach piece he plays on the Uncle Charlie album
Old Hickory - Posted - 05/16/2021: 12:27:01
Agreeing with everyone who said to just play those unattainable notes an octave higher.
Many players do that in Bach's Cello Suite in G Prelude. There are low C# and C just below the banjo's usual range. Search tabs and you'll find some in drop C tuning to hit that low note as written and some in standard G playing them an octave higher. You have to know the piece to notice the difference.
Here's Jens Kruger playing it in drop C. The low notes occur at 1 minute.
Here's someone else playing it very well, but jumping the octave for the C# and C. Happens at 1:02.
Here's someone playing the whole piece an octave lower, though probably the octave as written. Apparently in standard G. Still, when he comes to the section I mentioned above, he jumps the octave. There are some phrases in here that don't sound the same as others. Can't put my finger on it.
A friend from the Hangout once told me that with classical works, there's sometimes uncertainty as to which manuscript is the oldest or most accurate to the original. Point is, even though these are composed pieces, you might have some room to modify. And who's going to know?
mike gregory - Posted - 05/16/2021: 13:39:43
"Who's going to know?" indeed!
We had a talent show in 1965.
Classmate of mine was singing a folk song, hit a clinker, goggled in embarrassment, and started that verse over.
But, in that 99-seat theater, only her, and her mom and her dad, would have known she said the wrong word in CHINESE!
G Edward Porgie - Posted - 05/16/2021: 14:45:18
Not much is ever noticed. I played the wrong chord many times as a Shakey's Pizza Parlor player.
The best (worst?0 example I remember was at a concert wind and piano piece was being performed. The clarinaet and oboe both somehow lost there places and the flute had to improvise to cover them. Besides the performers, I was the only audience member who could tell something was amiss. I had been to the dress rehearsal.
chas5strings - Posted - 05/16/2021: 14:48:54
You're going to have to treat bar 12 the same if you're playing the note up an octave? but bar 34 (was it?) is different so it would be nice to keep that leap.
finger-picker - Posted - 05/16/2021: 16:09:04
quote:
Originally posted by Old Hickory
Here's someone playing the whole piece an octave lower, though probably the octave as written. Apparently in standard G. Still, when he comes to the section I mentioned above, he jumps the octave. There are some phrases in here that don't sound the same as others. Can't put my finger on it.
His version sounds very metallic, maybe the mic is too close? Also it looks like he’s doing tons of sliding up and down his fretting positions which might be adding more passing tones that just sound cluttered. Couldn’t pick out a certain section that veered off the path too far though.
Old Hickory - Posted - 05/16/2021: 18:08:01
quote:
Originally posted by finger-picker
His version sounds very metallic, maybe the mic is too close? Also it looks like he’s doing tons of sliding up and down his fretting positions which might be adding more passing tones that just sound cluttered. Couldn’t pick out a certain section that veered off the path too far though.
I think the tone he's getting is a combination of recording gear and setup, his Chinese Fender banjo (which, like its Washburn cousin tends toward treble), and maybe picking technique. He's a good player. I've seen his stuff elsewhere. But in this piece, it sounds to me like he's attacking it like bluegrass instead of trying for a more mellow tone. Now, seeing as he's picking up near the bridge it could well be that he's going for a different tone and the recording is to blame for what we hear.
I pick up a few melodic variations here and there from what I believe is the usual way this goes. I think those are accommodations for the change in octave.
That being said . . . I think dropping this an octave sounds really good. I've been working on this piece off and on for many years. Not diligently enough to get it done! I've been doing it up the neck where most versions are written. Now I wonder if down the neck is worth pursuing. Then I'll definitely never get it done.
finger-picker - Posted - 05/17/2021: 06:51:45
quote:
Originally posted by Old Hickory
quote:
Originally posted by finger-picker
His version sounds very metallic, maybe the mic is too close? Also it looks like he’s doing tons of sliding up and down his fretting positions which might be adding more passing tones that just sound cluttered. Couldn’t pick out a certain section that veered off the path too far though.
I think the tone he's getting is a combination of recording gear and setup, his Chinese Fender banjo (which, like its Washburn cousin tends toward treble), and maybe picking technique. He's a good player. I've seen his stuff elsewhere. But in this piece, it sounds to me like he's attacking it like bluegrass instead of trying for a more mellow tone. Now, seeing as he's picking up near the bridge it could well be that he's going for a different tone and the recording is to blame for what we hear.
I pick up a few melodic variations here and there from what I believe is the usual way this goes. I think those are accommodations for the change in octave.
That being said . . . I think dropping this an octave sounds really good. I've been working on this piece off and on for many years. Not diligently enough to get it done! I've been doing it up the neck where most versions are written. Now I wonder if down the neck is worth pursuing. Then I'll definitely never get it done.
I'm pretty sure he's using the Hal Leonard drop C version of Prelude. I recorded it at a slower tempo and also capo'd up to E Flat, our hand movements look to be very similar. This version uses a lot of slurs throughout the piece. I'm actually practicing it in C more nowadays to get that full bass note feel and also playing the individual strings in place of the slurs because I think it sounds a bit better. Anyway, here is the page 1 excerpt and my video, attached.
I'm curious if this version is taking some liberties and whether I should actually learn another version that's more true to the original source?
Old Hickory - Posted - 05/17/2021: 14:11:16
quote:
Originally posted by finger-picker
(1 ) I'm pretty sure he's using the Hal Leonard drop C version of Prelude. I recorded it at a slower tempo and also capo'd up to E Flat, our hand movements look to be very similar.
(2) This version uses a lot of slurs throughout the piece.
(3) I'm actually practicing it in C more nowadays to get that full bass note feel and also playing the individual strings in place of the slurs because I think it sounds a bit better. Anyway, here is the page 1 excerpt and my video, attached.
(4) I'm curious if this version is taking some liberties and whether I should actually learn another version that's more true to the original source?
1 > Well that explains a lot! As I mentioned above, some transcribers have tabbed it out in drop C in the key G. This is, after all, the prelude from Cello Suite Number 1 in G.
2 > Judging just from the sample page and from the player's video, I believe the slurs are used to avoid tricky fingering or even two-note single string passages, which might not be all that tricky. This is a perfectly acceptable banjoistic choice. Using slurs to simplify the sounding of notes is an important part of m personal technique or approach to banjo. But late in life I'm now trying to accomplish more of those with single-string. I find it can sometimes keep a roll going, even if two strikes in the roll are on the same string.
3 > As hinted at in answer 1 above, and in one of my previous posts, you can get that full bass note feel playing the piece in the key of G by playing the piece in drop C. In the last few measures leading up to the pause at measure 23 or 24, the melody hits a low C# and then a low C. What threw me off about the recording we're discussing is this version starts on low notes and plays some low notes throughout the first 23 measures. BUT, when it gets to the phrases leading up to the pause, this version jumps the octave for what would otherwise be the actual two lowest notes in the piece. I only just now realized that's because this version is in C, not G.
So let me say for the third or fourth time: As written in G, the two lowest notes in the piece are C# and C. You can hit those in the key of G in drop C tuning, with C being the lowest note on the banjo.
4 > For the fifth or sixth time: one liberty this version takes is transposing the piece to the key of C. I don't have the time to listen to it measure by measure to catch what I think are differences. And hearing it in a different key makes that harder to do. Comparing the standard notation in two different keys wouldnt be particularly easy for me, either. So I'm going to say this version sounds different to me and leave it at that.
Have fun with whatever version or approach you take. You're taking on some ambitious material. It will pay off in the end.
finger-picker - Posted - 05/17/2021: 17:01:13
quote:
Originally posted by Old Hickory
quote:
Originally posted by finger-picker
(1 ) I'm pretty sure he's using the Hal Leonard drop C version of Prelude. I recorded it at a slower tempo and also capo'd up to E Flat, our hand movements look to be very similar.
(2) This version uses a lot of slurs throughout the piece.
(3) I'm actually practicing it in C more nowadays to get that full bass note feel and also playing the individual strings in place of the slurs because I think it sounds a bit better. Anyway, here is the page 1 excerpt and my video, attached.
(4) I'm curious if this version is taking some liberties and whether I should actually learn another version that's more true to the original source?
1 > Well that explains a lot! As I mentioned above, some transcribers have tabbed it out in drop C in the key G. This is, after all, the prelude from Cello Suite Number 1 in G.
Wow I never realized it was in the key of G, lol, but as this piece states, they transposed to key of C. Hmmm, maybe I'll learn a key of G version. Here's the full tab btw, wasn't sure how copyrighted material works if I should just post an excerpt or the whole thing. I'm sure someone will say something if I'm not allowed to do this.
Old Hickory - Posted - 05/17/2021: 18:18:55
quote:
Originally posted by finger-picker
Here's the full tab btw, wasn't sure how copyrighted material works if I should just post an excerpt or the whole thing. I'm sure someone will say something if I'm not allowed to do this.
It's copyrighted material. You're not allowed to do this. Even your markups and this discussion being commentary and analysis probably don't count as "fair use," mainly since you've posted the whole thing. Since your editing time has expired, it's up to the mods to take it down or leave it up.
Joel Hooks - Posted - 05/18/2021: 06:28:59
Let me start by saying that I am usually the first to make the distinction between the popular music phenomena that we currently call "classic banjo" and what is generally called "classical banjo" today (classical banjo is usually novelty classical pieces arranged around the bluegrass arpeggio formula, played on steel strings with Hawaiian guitar picks).
That said, finger-picker , you could save yourself a HUGE amount of guess work in your arrangements by working through any of the classic era "tutors" as a course of study.
Arrangement and transposition ideas have all been fully worked out in an established system by 1900. All position and fingering markings have been figured out and (more or less) standardized for you.
Problem solving based around fitting compositions from other instruments in the gamut of the 5 string banjo have been addressed as well. This includes appropriate use of harmony and inversions to fit the banjo.
With my first statement given, I would recommend you peruse something similar to what "Classical Guitarists" have done with the Spanish guitar-- mine the source material but ignore the playing info such as how to strike the strings and fingerings (for the most part).
The regular 5 string banjo was based around bare fingertips and gut or silk strings with a wound bass. So, pass over this information (though I would recommend trying it-- particular learning the system of alternate right hand fingering) and work through one or more of the following course of studies...
My top recommendation is "Mel Bay's Banjo Method, Concert Style" by Frank Bradbury. This is still in print but you can find used copies for super cheap. This work was first published in 1961 (in two volumes) and is the result of a lifetime of teaching and playing. It is clear, well graded, and includes pretty much everything you need. When Mel Bay combined the two volumes into one, they made a mistake and the page turns in the second half are awkward, the EBook fixed that (or you could get the original print from eBay or Abe books, etc..
melbay.com/Products/93238EB/ba...thod.aspx
In 1926, Bradbury published his first tutor "Modern Method for the Banjo".
This book is very similar to the later 1961 work, but gets a little heaver in theory. This one moves faster and the short pieces/exercises are a little more difficult starting out. This one is free to download here...
archive.org/details/bradburymo...dforbanjo
While the music in these books lean more popular than "classical", this is no different than how the classical guitar is taught today. By working through all the studies and simple pieces you will be armed with all you need to tackle the music you would like to play.
Supplement the Bradbury books with one or more of the following...
archive.org/details/the-banjo-...-grimshaw
and the companion work of studies...
archive.org/details/how-to-exc...-grimshaw
or
archive.org/details/20th-centu...-e.-agnew
archive.org/details/TheImprove...dForBanjo
archive.org/details/Wm.C.Stahl...njoMethod
archive.org/details/NewtonsCon.../mode/2up
And here is a series of exercises that go into detail on technique.
archive.org/details/TuitionInBanjoTechnic
To be totally transparent, you won't find much of the repertoire (thousands of published pieces of sheet music-- all in public domain) to fall in the category that you are interested in but there are a few arrangements if you dig, which will give you an idea of how to work out problems you may face.
There is also plenty of art music that you might enjoy, Alfred Cammeyer composed many pieces that are musical and not really popular in style or "for use" music. One banjoist to look out for is Alfred Farland, though most of his music was published in "A notation" (long story to explain what that is).
There is no need to reinvent the wheel. All of this knowledge is free for the taking. In the example from the OP, I am able to read directly off of the page (marking the octave changes before) with no trouble (other than the terrible copy, which I found a better score of).
By working through the material I have provided you will be free of needing to convert to tablature systems. You will be using notation. You will be a literate musician when you play the banjo. Something we need more of.
Edited by - Joel Hooks on 05/18/2021 06:29:17
finger-picker - Posted - 05/18/2021: 13:24:26
quote:
Originally posted by Joel Hooks
Let me start by saying that I am usually the first to make the distinction between the popular music phenomena that we currently call "classic banjo" and what is generally called "classical banjo" today (classical banjo is usually novelty classical pieces arranged around the bluegrass arpeggio formula, played on steel strings with Hawaiian guitar picks).
That said, finger-picker , you could save yourself a HUGE amount of guess work in your arrangements by working through any of the classic era "tutors" as a course of study.
Arrangement and transposition ideas have all been fully worked out in an established system by 1900. All position and fingering markings have been figured out and (more or less) standardized for you.
Problem solving based around fitting compositions from other instruments in the gamut of the 5 string banjo have been addressed as well. This includes appropriate use of harmony and inversions to fit the banjo.
With my first statement given, I would recommend you peruse something similar to what "Classical Guitarists" have done with the Spanish guitar-- mine the source material but ignore the playing info such as how to strike the strings and fingerings (for the most part).
The regular 5 string banjo was based around bare fingertips and gut or silk strings with a wound bass. So, pass over this information (though I would recommend trying it-- particular learning the system of alternate right hand fingering) and work through one or more of the following course of studies...
My top recommendation is "Mel Bay's Banjo Method, Concert Style" by Frank Bradbury. This is still in print but you can find used copies for super cheap. This work was first published in 1961 (in two volumes) and is the result of a lifetime of teaching and playing. It is clear, well graded, and includes pretty much everything you need. When Mel Bay combined the two volumes into one, they made a mistake and the page turns in the second half are awkward, the EBook fixed that (or you could get the original print from eBay or Abe books, etc..
melbay.com/Products/93238EB/ba...thod.aspx
In 1926, Bradbury published his first tutor "Modern Method for the Banjo".
This book is very similar to the later 1961 work, but gets a little heaver in theory. This one moves faster and the short pieces/exercises are a little more difficult starting out. This one is free to download here...
archive.org/details/bradburymo...dforbanjo
While the music in these books lean more popular than "classical", this is no different than how the classical guitar is taught today. By working through all the studies and simple pieces you will be armed with all you need to tackle the music you would like to play.
Supplement the Bradbury books with one or more of the following...
archive.org/details/the-banjo-...-grimshaw
and the companion work of studies...
archive.org/details/how-to-exc...-grimshaw
or
archive.org/details/20th-centu...-e.-agnew
archive.org/details/TheImprove...dForBanjo
archive.org/details/Wm.C.Stahl...njoMethod
archive.org/details/NewtonsCon.../mode/2up
And here is a series of exercises that go into detail on technique.
archive.org/details/TuitionInBanjoTechnic
To be totally transparent, you won't find much of the repertoire (thousands of published pieces of sheet music-- all in public domain) to fall in the category that you are interested in but there are a few arrangements if you dig, which will give you an idea of how to work out problems you may face.
There is also plenty of art music that you might enjoy, Alfred Cammeyer composed many pieces that are musical and not really popular in style or "for use" music. One banjoist to look out for is Alfred Farland, though most of his music was published in "A notation" (long story to explain what that is).
There is no need to reinvent the wheel. All of this knowledge is free for the taking. In the example from the OP, I am able to read directly off of the page (marking the octave changes before) with no trouble (other than the terrible copy, which I found a better score of).
By working through the material I have provided you will be free of needing to convert to tablature systems. You will be using notation. You will be a literate musician when you play the banjo. Something we need more of.
Thanks for the write up Joel, I've reviewed the classic method from time to time including other posts you've made as well as on your website. I even purchased your top recommendation booklet but could go through it some more. I am learning to read sheet music as I slowly start to learn baroque compositions I like, I figured it's just a matter of time where I'll be reading them from the sheet instead of having to convert to tab notation. My biggest dilemma is knowing where on the fretboard to play certain sections of notes, like you can play GABCDEF in the first few frets and also frets 5-7 as well. To be honest, I learn little by little with these kinds of posts and reading other posts, I have worked through booklets to some degree but it feels like drinking from a fire hose most of the time. I'll get to a point some day where I'll just know everything, I'm sure, and then I'll die :)
mmuussiiccaall - Posted - 05/18/2021: 18:07:55
My advice is buy a tenor banjo that has a slightly bowed back neck which BTW should be cheap because it will be expensive to fix for a regular tenor player. Put standard heavy Irish tenor strings on it which are tuned in fifths just like a violin and mandolin but an octave lower, that should fix the bow.
The Baroque, Classical, etc. composers had this tuning in mind when they composed their music and used that knowledge to generate playable pieces in suitable keys. Learn to read standard notation and focus on these violin and mandolin pieces, otherwise you will be back to square one every time.
Joel Hooks - Posted - 05/18/2021: 18:34:01
finger-picker , yeah, it is a slog. But the great part is that you only have to do it once, then you are done!
Regarding positions, that will all come with practice and experience. If you work through a course of study and use the supplement material I posted, you will learn to play in positions and that will help you with the questions of note placement. Bradbury's book is very good for position playing, as is Grimshaw. The Grimshaw studies will help with positions as well as further building on dynamics and the different voices of the banjo.
Try this: Set aside 15 to 20 mins of your practice time to work on the course of study. Then stop and do your regular thing. In a few months you will be reading in the natural keys for the banjo. That is not that much time at all.
G Edward Porgie - Posted - 05/18/2021: 20:04:00
quote:
Originally posted by mmuussiiccaall
My advice is buy a tenor banjo that has a slightly bowed back neck which BTW should be cheap because it will be expensive to fix for a regular tenor player. Put standard heavy Irish tenor strings on it which are tuned in fifths just like a violin and mandolin but an octave lower, that should fix the bow.
The Baroque, Classical, etc. composers had this tuning in mind when they composed their music and used that knowledge to generate playable pieces in suitable keys. Learn to read standard notation and focus on these violin and mandolin pieces, otherwise you will be back to square one every time.
Heavy Irish tenor strings won't fix a bowed neck, because the lower GDAE tuning means they are at about the same tension as a normal tenor set tuned CGDA. (you can't tune an Irish set up to CGDA).
I also would point out that many baroque and classical pieces were composed for keyboard instruments (organs and harpsichords), viols (tuned in fourths), and wind ensembles. Saying that composers had "fifths" tuning in mind is a huge stretch unless a piece was actually composed for violin, viola, or 'cello.
YellowSkyBlueSun - Posted - 05/21/2021: 12:19:00
If you really want to pursue playing classical pieces, I'd get one of the Gold Tone OT-6 "LoJo" banjos, with the low G string. I have one and it really opens things up for the player.
finger-picker - Posted - 05/21/2021: 15:34:57
quote:
Originally posted by YellowSkyBlueSun
If you really want to pursue playing classical pieces, I'd get one of the Gold Tone OT-6 "LoJo" banjos, with the low G string. I have one and it really opens things up for the player.
Interesting, looks like the offspring of a guitar player mating with a clawhammer player. Let me know if you can find a classical music video with one in action using Scruggs style.
