1935tb-11 - Posted - 02/04/2021:  09:18:34

who do you consider the real father of bluegrass or was it a joint invention of 2 ?

without bill monroe would scruggs created bluegrass?
or
without scruggs would monroe created bluegrass ?

personally i think that earl is what pushed monroe from string music to bluegrass.

KCJones - Posted - 02/04/2021:  09:29:57

It was certainly a team effort. I think it could be argued that bluegrass didn't really exist until Scruggs joined the band, but that's more of a grey area. Whomever started it... I think without F&S, bluegrass wouldn't really be a thing anymore.

Manzanita aside, Bluegrass isn't Bluegrass without the 5 string banjo.

revellfa - Posted - 02/04/2021:  09:38:27

Honestly folks like Wade Mainer deserve to be in the conversation here as well.

tonehead - Posted - 02/04/2021:  09:38:48

Fair question. Interesting question. I think the *title* is given to Mr Monroe because it was his band and he gave Earl the opportunity. He was (obviously) the driving force behind the band. You could say they couldn't have done it without each other.

UncleClawhammer - Posted - 02/04/2021:  09:45:47

There was a long thread about this a few weeks ago.

As far as I'm concerned, Monroe is the Father, as much as anyone can be the "father" or inventor of a subgenre of music, which is by definition something communal, participatory, and thus the work of many hands.

It's an outrageous simplification bordering on an outright falsehood that before Scruggs and his banjo playing, Monroe's band was just another country stringband. Monroe was a distinctive stylist; an innovator and a synthesizer who used the old-time stringband tradition blended with blues, jazz, and Methodist, Holiness, and Baptist church music to create something fresh as well as a space for the acoustic stringband tradition to continue to grow and develop within the country music field while retaining what he called "the ancient tones."

For me, the sound of bluegrass banjo is important, but ornamented Appalachian vocals with some blues inflections, tight vocal harmonies that tend toward the more strident intervals, and most of all "bluegrass time" or drive - being played on top of or anticipating the beat - are all more important, and these can all be credited to Monroe.

1935tb-11 - Posted - 02/04/2021:  09:51:22

but there is no denying the change in monroes music to the form we have known as bluegrass for the last 75 years. listen to monroe before earl and after earl, monroe knew what to do with. he even said somewhere that when he heard earls picking he knew he found the missing piece.... no one had heard nothing like THAT band till then.

Eric A - Posted - 02/04/2021:  09:58:11

quote:

---

Originally posted by KCJones

 Whomever started it... I think without F&S, bluegrass wouldn't really be a thing anymore.

 

---

100% agree.

UncleClawhammer - Posted - 02/04/2021:  10:04:31

Anyone interested in this question would probably like to read this and this. For me, the latter hits the nail on the head.

Edited by - UncleClawhammer on 02/04/2021 10:05:03

Culloden - Posted - 02/04/2021:  10:48:27

The creation of Bluegrass music may have been a collaborative effort but it was Bill Monroe's brainchild so I would always consider Bill Monroe the Father of Bluegrass.

Alvin Conder - Posted - 02/04/2021:  11:09:44

Monroe

corcoran - Posted - 02/04/2021:  11:39:57

Monroe knew that he wanted to add a certain style on 5-string banjo, and he tried to recruit Don Reno in 1943. However, Reno was going into the army and was unavailable. Monroe recruited Earl Scruggs in 1945, and the rest is history. If it all rests on Earl, why is the Morris Brothers band, with whom Earl played before he joined Monroe, not considered the original of a new style of music? On the other hand, would we be arguing about whether Don Reno, with his somewhat cruder style (as it was then) of banjo, is the real father of bluegrass if he had joined the Blue Grass Boys in 1943? Scruggs brought something magical to Bill Monroe’s music. Monroe had definite ideas about what he wanted his music to sound like, and he laid the crucial groundwork. Scruggs added the finishing touch, just as he did to the North Carolina style of 3-finger banjo picking. In my opinion, of course.

chuckv97 - Posted - 02/04/2021:  11:44:44

You had Johnny Whisnant playing pretty good 3 finger picking with Carl Story in the late ‘30’s,,early ‘40’s.

G Edward Porgie - Posted - 02/04/2021:  12:13:44

Who is bluegrass's father? Maybe you should find its mother and ask her.

Edited by - G Edward Porgie on 02/04/2021 12:14:06

UncleClawhammer - Posted - 02/04/2021:  12:20:44

The mother of bluegrass, is, of course, Sam Bush, who often says that whenever Monroe saw him approaching, would say “Here comes that mother now...”

Brian Murphy - Posted - 02/04/2021:  12:32:27

Arnold Schultz

overhere - Posted - 02/04/2021:  13:04:41

I think it was Bill Monroes high energy music that gave bluegrass the roots. You can say without Scruggs but also can say without that energy it would have remained a string band music. I think. We also have to remember when others were copying they were copying Monroe’s sound and energy level. And those original band members had that bluegrass drive in their bones that helped create that energy level. And Bill was the Father.

okbluegrassbanjopicker - Posted - 02/04/2021:  13:11:21

Bill Monroe was Bluegrass.

 His father was the real “Father” of Bluegrass.

Bill Rogers - Posted - 02/04/2021:  13:14:51

Earl was the last—and key—link in the bg chain of development. But Monroe developed the style, which is significantly vocal, btw. He was the one with the creativity and flexibility to hire Earl.

Randy Escobedo - Posted - 02/04/2021:  14:19:40

I remember long ago Louise Scruggs and I were talking about this. I remember her words very clearly. She told me “If it were not for Earl Scruggs there would be no Father of Bluegrass”

Edited by - Randy Escobedo on 02/04/2021 14:20:29

Bill Rogers - Posted - 02/04/2021:  14:29:24

Louise was a tireless promoter of Earl, so of course she’d say that. Had Reno been able to take the gig, I don’t see that bluegrass would not have existed; it would have been different instrumentally. But to say that Scruggs begat the genre is more trying to start an argument than making a serious case.

DH#52 - Posted - 02/04/2021:  14:31:00

Why would one assume the father of bluegrass is its first banjo virtuoso instead of the founder of that group of string musicians who originally put the thing together? Monroe established the make-up of the classic quintet line-up of a (now) typical bluegrass band, which is why the genre is named for his band. Maybe call him the architect of bluegrass.

Steve

EulalieBlue - Posted - 02/04/2021:  14:52:10

Bill Monroe knew what he liked when he heard it, but I don't think for a minute that he envisioned Earl's sound in advance and was seeking someone to match that sound. Monroe had other banjo players, clawhammer and even tenor banjo, and banjo players usually did the clown act. But he was looking for a banjo player who could keep up on all those 100-Watt numbers. Earl could keep up.

southerndrifter - Posted - 02/04/2021:  15:00:57

I've always believed it was Earl and his style of syncopated, 3-finger style of banjo picking. I've always said that was the "Big Bang" that created "Bluegrass"! But Sonny Osborne made a point in a recent post that I had never considered. Monroe had actually offered Reno the banjo job before he had ever heard Earl. At that time, Reno and Scruggs' styles were very similar. So apparently Bill heard something in that style of banjo picking that he thought would make his music special. With that being said, Bill was the "Father" and Earl just happened to be the man that brought Bill's vision to fruition.

flyingsquirrelinlay - Posted - 02/04/2021:  15:13:50

I hate to be a wet rag, but how many times in the last 10 years have we discussed this? Are you a chicken or egg man?

Bill H - Posted - 02/04/2021:  15:21:35

I don't have enough historical background to render an informed opinion on this point, but I am old enough to remember the popularity of Bill Monroe in the fifties and sixties. He was a household word. Everybody knew who Bill Monroe was. Whether he was was the father of bluegrass I can't say, but he sure as heck made it popular. Certainly Flatt and Scruggs were essential, but did not have the same recognition or popularity that Monroe did until after the Beverly Hillbillies in the early sixties. The Beverly Hillbillies sparked a surge in the popularity of Bluegrass as well as country music on TV and radio. As I remember, which is subject to my limited perspective.

UncleClawhammer - Posted - 02/04/2021:  16:35:59

quote:

---

Originally posted by EulalieBlue

Bill Monroe knew what he liked when he heard it, but I don't think for a minute that he envisioned Earl's sound in advance and was seeking someone to match that sound. Monroe had other banjo players, clawhammer and even tenor banjo, and banjo players usually did the clown act. But he was looking for a banjo player who could keep up on all those 100-Watt numbers. Earl could keep up.

---

Stringbean was Monroe's first banjo player, and didn't play clawhammer banjo on any of the records he made with him. There is a radio transcription of String playing clawhammer from Monroe on The Wandering Boy, so he played it at least once on the radio, probably other times, and possibly in live performance. There is no evidence that String was in the group to play the clown; he always appeared in the same formal attire as the rest of the band, unlike the various incarnations of "Sparkplug," who did serve as the group's rube comedy act. Monroe always spoke of String as a musician providing "the touch of the banjo" and not as a comedian. His tenor banjo player (his name escapes me) never recorded with Monroe, and WAS in the group to do comedy. 

chuckv97 - Posted - 02/04/2021:  16:41:45

A 1:31 a banjo on “Bluegrass Special” ,,sounds like a 4 string. youtu.be/1q0gMxPh8Q0

UncleClawhammer - Posted - 02/04/2021:  16:48:39

Might sound like it; it isn’t. That’s Stringbean playing two-finger index lead. On the cuts he recorded with Monroe, he usually played way up the neck. There’s been a little confusion over the years, but all the discographical research confirms that. This has also been discussed on the Hangout before. 

Edited by - UncleClawhammer on 02/04/2021 16:54:54

Bill Rogers - Posted - 02/04/2021:  20:17:17

Lynwood more clearly expressed what I was trying to say. As I understand it, Reno had to go nto the miitry (it being WWII), but Earl (for whatever reason) did not. So Earl got the gig.

Good Buddy - Posted - 02/05/2021:  01:05:25

Bill was the Mother and Earl was the Father. It probably would have been born without Earl, but he was the man.

Good Buddy - Posted - 02/05/2021:  01:14:22

quote:

---

Originally posted by Good Buddy

Bill was the Mother and Earl was the Father. It probably could have been born without Earl, but Earl had the job when it all happened. It would never have happened without a lightning fast 3-finger bluegrass banjo picker.

Edited by - Good Buddy on 02/05/2021 01:15:52

warpdrive - Posted - 02/05/2021:  05:48:42

Well
Im long overdue to play devils advocate..here goes...

Guys i look at our beloved music, and its founding fathers.(plural)...and consider there mental faculties...and along with monroe...many of them were damaged, and to put it mildly...they had alot of broke toys in there attic.

Seriously...when you look at monrore...his rough childhood...he was cross eyed...made sport of...very interverted socially...him and others like him were most likely in the spectrum...
More like savants...they were capable of wonderful musicial ability....but for me....i don't believe for one minute that they gave the thoughts that these threads are accrediting to them...

These people were from a labor immigrant back ground
And there music was for there pacification after there hard day's work...and if they found sombody else..a friend or family member..an acquaintance, that played also...so much the better...

This music is not Mozart..Chopin, Beethoven, Bach, and my personal favorite, Franz Liszt...
But this is not to say it is to be taken lightly either....like all forms of expression, it varies in complexity from person to person, i suspect that is the way the creator intended it to be..

For my 2 cents worth....it doesn't matter who was the father...why over think it
Just sit back and listen to the many talented individuals that bring us pleasure...
Who cares what there thinking while there preforming...i certainly dont.

Warp!

Tractor1 - Posted - 02/05/2021:  06:15:46

Monroe did not invent anything new.All the elements were around. He tried what came along and kept his ears open. He once said Arthur Smith was the man to beat. When Smith played with the Delmore Brothers it had a lot of the elements,the chop was done on the tenor guitar instead of mandolin. The only thing to be added to the 2 profound beats without stepping on toes was the circling around every wheres but not landing ----of the 5 string.Monroe's take no prisoner's boss style was his talent. A talent that is a proven success in many endeavors

No way Earl was pushy enough to make this happen.

my opinion I ask no one to agree

Edited by - Tractor1 on 02/05/2021 06:18:10

Tractor1 - Posted - 02/05/2021:  06:36:40

Big Mon did have his own way of playing the mandolin

Richard Hauser - Posted - 02/05/2021:  06:42:05

Creation and popularization are not the same thing. Initially, certain musical characteristics from different types of music were consolidated. So the ideas existed, but in a different form. And over time, Bluegrass has evolved into more than one style. The style played by "The Seldom Scene" and "Newgrass Revival" attracted new fans.

I would have to do a lot of research before I "dubbed" a person as the creator of a type of music. Monroe might just have been the stepfather.

stanleytone - Posted - 02/05/2021:  06:47:53

Wasnt it called Bill Monroe and the Bluegrass Boys before Earl joined up?

Edited by - stanleytone on 02/05/2021 06:48:21

MoJoBanjo - Posted - 02/05/2021:  06:49:23

Always a hot topic, here's a link to more discussion on this topic that Matthew mentioned: banjohangout.org/topic/370860/1

---

Originally posted by UncleClawhammer

There was a long thread about this a few weeks ago.



As far as I'm concerned, Monroe is the Father, as much as anyone can be the "father" or inventor of a subgenre of music, which is by definition something communal, participatory, and thus the work of many hands.



It's an outrageous simplification bordering on an outright falsehood that before Scruggs and his banjo playing, Monroe's band was just another country stringband. Monroe was a distinctive stylist; an innovator and a synthesizer who used the old-time stringband tradition blended with blues, jazz, and Methodist, Holiness, and Baptist church music to create something fresh as well as a space for the acoustic stringband tradition to continue to grow and develop within the country music field while retaining what he called "the ancient tones."



For me, the sound of bluegrass banjo is important, but ornamented Appalachian vocals with some blues inflections, tight vocal harmonies that tend toward the more strident intervals, and most of all "bluegrass time" or drive - being played on top of or anticipating the beat - are all more important, and these can all be credited to Monroe.

---

EulalieBlue - Posted - 02/05/2021:  06:52:35

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tractor1

Monroe did not invent anything new.All the elements were around. He tried what came along and kept his ears open. He once said Arthur Smith was the man to beat.

True that.  The element in common with Arthur Smith was the forward motion and "edginess" to the sound.  The Delmores were far from "edgy" and they were paired with Smith on recordings because of convenience.   They were also paired with Uncle Dave Macon, which seemed to tame his music down a bit. If you listen to the Monroe Bros. recordings (also on Bluebird), Bill's edgy forward-leaning style of playing was there from the beginning.  In fact, you can almost hear the brothers squabbling about the tempo in those recordings where the pulse gets faster and faster.  Monroe definitely created the style, and his gift was in leaning on his band members in order to keep up.

1935tb-11 - Posted - 02/05/2021:  06:54:07

but seriously can any of us imagine (bluegrass) as we have known it for the last 75 years without an earl scruggs in it ? i can't ,,,, for us banjo players (99%),,, earl is the treadmill.

youtube.com/watch?v=-xbwDPL5T4w

KCJones - Posted - 02/05/2021:  07:16:42

Listening to some of the Pre-Scruggs "Bluegrass Boys" and other Monroe work, and comparing it with contemporaries, I honestly don't see how it's that much different. He certainly has his own sound, with playing on top of the beat and the high vocals, but it doesn't sound like an entirely new subgenre. But when you listen to the first couple years when Scruggs was with them, it's a tectonic shift. THAT is the sound. It's not just another iterative change of folk music, it is a giant leap from anything ever done before.



Bill Monroe started the band, and he named it the Bluegrass Boys, so I guess you could say that he invented Bluegrass because it was his band and his band name. But Scruggs is the one that made it a real genre. Without Earl Scruggs, Bluegrass would not be an actual genre of music, it would just be the name of a reasonably popular country music band from the 50s.

Edited by - KCJones on 02/05/2021 07:16:59

1935tb-11 - Posted - 02/05/2021:  07:25:32

try to take the scruggs style banjo out of bluegrass...whatcha got?
as it blossomed the scruggs style banjo took the forefront in the instruments ...

Tractor1 - Posted - 02/05/2021:  07:32:05

Most things ( here on the third rock),seem to be the accidental unfolding of events with the usual desire of many to make their mark, with their ears wide open .
I imagine this-- Take a couple of the players showing up at the wrong time ,it would miss the mark and game over. The popularity indeed increases odds but it is still a one time unfolding that happened this way. Suppose Earl or Bill got permanently moved to another place in the world for some reason at that time ,Some other genre may have got doctored into something else.

O.D. - Posted - 02/05/2021:  15:02:57

Well,what was the music Snuffy Jenkins and others with the same instruments playing? How was Monroes band with Earl different, if it was?
If Bill's was different then I'd say he was the father of bluegrass

Everett

chuckv97 - Posted - 02/05/2021:  15:54:50

Starting at 5:45 and after the question, some interesting comments from James Monroe.
youtu.be/83lbuJb96IY

1935tb-11 - Posted - 02/05/2021:  21:42:32

quote:

---

Originally posted by From Greylock to Bean Blossom

quote:

---

Originally posted by 1935tb-11

who do you consider the real father of bluegrass or was it a joint invention of 2 ?



without bill monroe would scruggs created bluegrass?

or

without scruggs would monroe created bluegrass ?



personally i think that earl is what pushed monroe from string music to bluegrass.

---

Monroe created bluegrass. The 3 finger 5 string was the finishing touch. Monroe  wanted to hire Reno as the first 3 finger player but Reno had to go into the army. If Monroe had been able to hire Reno, it still would have had the same template as that first bluegrass band with Scruggs.

Ken

---

true,, i think it was a mutual collaboration between monroe and scruggs,, bill was looking and earl was the answer... besides if monroe had not hired earl... we may not have ever had flatt & scruggs.

this what monroe said about earl referring to molly and tenbtooks:

 Oh yeah, we was playin’ it. But his way of playin’ it was fine, you see. It done a lot for Molly and Tenbrooks. That number done a lot for fiddle playin’, and a good fiddler done a lot for the number, too. But the numbers that I come with, I knew that they would fit the banjo and it would help the banjo and the banjo would help me. The drive that the bluegrass music had, helped the five-string banjo. But if I’d have went on back and got the old-time mountain music and played it, the banjo wouldn’t never have come out. If it hadn’t been for bluegrass, the five-string banjo would have never made it.

Edited by - 1935tb-11 on 02/05/2021 21:53:36

From Greylock to Bean Blossom - Posted - 02/05/2021:  21:47:07

quote:

---

Originally posted by 1935tb-11

quote:

---

Originally posted by From Greylock to Bean Blossom

quote:

---

Originally posted by 1935tb-11

who do you consider the real father of bluegrass or was it a joint invention of 2 ?



without bill monroe would scruggs created bluegrass?

or

without scruggs would monroe created bluegrass ?



personally i think that earl is what pushed monroe from string music to bluegrass.

---

Monroe created bluegrass. The 3 finger 5 string was the finishing touch. Monroe  wanted to hire Reno as the first 3 finger player but Reno had to go into the army. If Monroe had been able to hire Reno, it still would have had the same template as that first bluegrass band with Scruggs.

Ken

---

true,, i think it was a mutual collaboration between monroe and scruggs,, bill was looking and earl was the answer... besides if monroe had not hired earl... we may not have ever had flatt & scruggs.

---

HI Terry,

Sorry I deleted my post as I read more fully thru the thread because I saw that several others has already stated what i said. It was mind boggling all the talent that was put together in that "Original" band wasn't it.

ken

1935tb-11 - Posted - 02/05/2021:  21:52:04

quote:

---

Originally posted by From Greylock to Bean Blossom

quote:

---

Originally posted by 1935tb-11

quote:

---

Originally posted by From Greylock to Bean Blossom

quote:

---

Originally posted by 1935tb-11

who do you consider the real father of bluegrass or was it a joint invention of 2 ?



without bill monroe would scruggs created bluegrass?

or

without scruggs would monroe created bluegrass ?



personally i think that earl is what pushed monroe from string music to bluegrass.

---

Monroe created bluegrass. The 3 finger 5 string was the finishing touch. Monroe  wanted to hire Reno as the first 3 finger player but Reno had to go into the army. If Monroe had been able to hire Reno, it still would have had the same template as that first bluegrass band with Scruggs.

Ken

---

true,, i think it was a mutual collaboration between monroe and scruggs,, bill was looking and earl was the answer... besides if monroe had not hired earl... we may not have ever had flatt & scruggs.

---

HI Terry,

Sorry I deleted my post as I read more fully thru the thread because I saw that several others has already stated what i said. It was mind boggling all the talent that was put together in that "Original" band wasn't it.

ken

---

yeah it was definately as many say the BIG BANG (DEC. 8, 1945) when it hit the opry 

Aradobanjo - Posted - 02/06/2021:  04:17:44

Hello,

Thank you Terry for the Bill Monroe quote. I have the album 16 Bluegrass Gems from Columbia Records. When listening to Stained Glass Bluegrass on Bluegrass Junction, the Monroe Brothers music selection before Earl was low tempo.

“Bluegrass Special” vs “Bluegrass Breakdown” is a different as night and day. Here is the other difference. The tempo of the song changes to accommodate String’s solo. On Bluegrass Breakdown, the tempo is monolithic.

Earl’s backup regimen was heard throughout a song. String’s is on his breaks. So, the banjo became more versatile than monolithic. Before Earl, the banjo was a solo instrument. With Earl, the banjo became a valued asset to Bill’s music.

Uncle Dave Macon played solo. UDM’s variations were moving the banjo around. This limited the variations.

Earl produced many different variations in sound. His selection of instruments were dependent on the sound he wanted. This produced His sound.

With everyone else mentioned during that time, which ones produced the same style as Earl? To me, they all sound like UDM. Classical music sounds similar to The UDM style, this is my banjo, now listen to it.

Earl strove to complement the other instruments. This is what sets Bluegrass apart from other previous genre of banjo music.

I enjoy Don Reno. The DR way is banjo and guitar. Similar to Earl’s style but more UDM. This my banjo, listen to me play.

To me, Earl’s complementary banjo playing method changed Bill Monroe’s music into Bluegrass. In fact, all other instruments are playing complimentary methods during Earl’s time. After Earl, Monroe’s Mandolin is the frills instrument.

A menagerie of instruments is where Monroe’s music was before Earl. After Earl, a defined set of instruments is what Monroe’s music became. This defined set produced Bluegrass. No music after Earl’s stint matches his complimentary style.

stanleytone - Posted - 02/06/2021:  05:52:06

This should end all discussion on the matter......
youtu.be/-GPRyNFkNH8