GHS - Posted - 03/20/2020:  08:11:49

I recently acquired an Epiphone mb-200 banjo. A web search of the instrument’s specifications state a scale length of 26.25 inches. The one I have measures 27.5 inches (nut to bridge). The measurement nut to twelfth fret is 13.75 inches. Is there an explanation for this apparent discrepancy?

Broken Ballad - Posted - 03/20/2020:  08:57:20

I can't give you the explanation, however I can suggest you contact the company it came from. They should have an answer.

GHS - Posted - 03/20/2020:  09:30:27

Thanks.
I will send a message to Epiphone.

Ken LeVan - Posted - 03/20/2020:  11:41:35

I suspect it's 200 times easier to make a mistake in the catalog spec sheet than it would be to accidently make a neck where the scale length 1 1/4" too long, which would require both a different neck length and different fret spacings.  Does it fret right?

27.5" is a pretty long scale, usually seen on old gut-strung banjos used for classic banjo playing.  When I scale off the picture of an mb 200 on their site, it looks pretty much like a 26 1/4" scale—The one they show couldn't possibly be 27 1/2".

Something strange going on!

Broken Ballad - Posted - 03/20/2020:  11:43:53

Anytime bud. Hope it goes well!

quote:Originally posted by GHSThanks.
I will send a message to Epiphone.

mikehalloran - Posted - 03/20/2020:  12:10:28

Before everyone jumps to conclusions... Start with the basics:



First: Do you have the bridge in the right place — harmonic at the octave matches the 12th fret? It won't be perfect on all 5 strings with a straight bridge. I go for the 2nd and 4th strings being perfect which makes the 1st a little flat and the 3rd a little sharp (1st & 4th perfect makes the 2nd a little sharp and the 3rd way too sharp for me).



Second: Are you measuring correctly? Do not measure the strings. Push your ruler against the leading edge of the nut and measure to the middle of the 12th fret, multiply times 2 to get the nominal scale.



If both are correct and you are still getting over 27", this is unusual but not unheard of. The Recording King Elite series has a nominal scale of 27 3/8". Perhaps Gibson/Epiphone has gone all Greg Rich on you.

RK Elite 75

beegee - Posted - 03/20/2020:  14:11:55

I have an old aluminum-rim Japanese banjo that measure 13-¾" to the 12th, as do my RK-Elites.

The MB-200 is an aluminum "bottle-cap" banjo made by the bazillions in Asian factories. The Epiphone name is meaningless, as the manufacturers make these banjos with whatever name the importer desires. Epiphone is a Gibson brand and has been manufactured in the US, Japan, Korea and now in China. The last US Epiphone banjos were made in Kalamazoo years ago with the same components at the Gibson banjos. Gibson's efforts remain in the guitar line and I'm pretty confident that the MB-200 never saw the inside of a proprietary Gibson factory. So, while the "Specifications" may indicate 26-¼", the reality is the scale will be whatever a particular factory supplies. It may change from factory-to-factory and order-to-order. I would also offer the opinion that Gibson neither knows nor cares what the actual scale of a particular order of banjos has. Interestingly enough, the Washburn B-10 which is a similar banjo specifies a 27-½ scale.

Why is it an issue? I switch seamlesly between my RK banjos and my Gibson-scale banjos and my Fender Artist. Just play it.

Ken LeVan - Posted - 03/20/2020:  14:31:03

quote:

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Originally posted by beegee

I have an old aluminum-rim Japanese banjo that measure 13-¾" to the 12th, as do my RK-Elites.



The MB-200 is an aluminum "bottle-cap" banjo made by the bazillions in Asian factories. The Epiphone name is meaningless, as the manufacturers make these banjos with whatever name the importer desires. Epiphone is a Gibson brand and has been manufactured in the US, Japan, Korea and now in China. The last US Epiphone banjos were made in Kalamazoo years ago with the same components at the Gibson banjos. Gibson's efforts remain in the guitar line and I'm pretty confident that the MB-200 never saw the inside of a proprietary Gibson factory. So, while the "Specifications" may indicate 26-¼", the reality is the scale will be whatever a particular factory supplies. It may change from factory-to-factory and order-to-order. I would also offer the opinion that Gibson neither knows nor cares what the actual scale of a particular order of banjos has. Interestingly enough, the Washburn B-10 which is a similar banjo specifies a 27-½ scale.



Why is it an issue? I switch seamlesly between my RK banjos and my Gibson-scale banjos and my Fender Artist. Just play it.

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Totally agreed, but there is a big thing about scale length related to fret spacings and arm motion that I have had to accept as a builder.

G Edward Porgie - Posted - 03/20/2020:  14:50:18

I would also guess that Bob Gaddis is correct about the "why" of this.

I do disagree with him on the scale length difference being okay. I can play a 26 1/4 inch scale, but I'd dislocate my fingers trying to make the stretches required for a 27 1/2 inch scale.

Alex Z - Posted - 03/20/2020:  15:16:52

If a player doesn't look at the fingerboard much, the difference in scale is quite noticeable or "feelable," so to speak.

Zip up from the open chord positions near the nut to get a note on the 12th fret -- 12th fret is now 3/4" farther away.  

GHS - Posted - 03/20/2020:  16:42:14

Thanks to all who responded. Based on your input my next steps will be :
Recheck the measurement to 12th;
Calculate the fret spacing and check with a good measuring device; and
play it! As a fingerstyle guitar player, i know how to handle a difference in scale length but I would be concerned to find a discrepancy in instrument specs.
I’ll post my findings tomorrow.

beegee - Posted - 03/20/2020:  17:48:07

quote:

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Originally posted by Alex Z

If a player doesn't look at the fingerboard much, the difference in scale is quite noticeable or "feelable," so to speak.

Zip up from the open chord positions near the nut to get a note on the 12th fret -- 12th fret is now 3/4" farther away.  

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Never had that problem. 

Eric A - Posted - 03/20/2020:  17:52:16

quote:

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Originally posted by Alex Z

If a player doesn't look at the fingerboard much, the difference in scale is quite noticeable or "feelable," so to speak.

Zip up from the open chord positions near the nut to get a note on the 12th fret -- 12th fret is now 3/4" farther away.  

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Or, if you started on a 27" Vega scale banjo, and then try a Gibson scale, you wonder why is this thing so short?

Fathand - Posted - 03/21/2020:  06:01:57

quote:

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Originally posted by GHS

Thanks.

I will send a message to Epiphone.

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Good Luck with that. Gibson seems to know little about their domestic instruments, let alone their imports.

Measure from the face of your nut to the middle of the 12th fret, double and that is your scale.

Fathand - Posted - 03/21/2020:  06:08:07

quote:

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Originally posted by G Edward Porgie

 I can play a 26 1/4 inch scale, but I'd dislocate my fingers trying to make the stretches required for a 27 1/2 inch scale.

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According to my fret calculator the difference at the first fret is .07" slightly more than 1/16" .

OldWhiteGuy - Posted - 03/21/2020:  06:36:23

This isn't the "Gibson" of the years when they made great instruments anymore, but y'all most likely
knew that. Greg Rich was the last guy that did the Company name proud. Now Gibson reissues instruments
that were complete failures in the 70's, which is one of the worst eras' in Gibson History. The instrument, at least
one of them I'm talking off is the "Ripper" bass. It'll rip $$ out of your pocket...

Good luck with the scale length, I suspect you'll adjust to it.

-Hank

Zachary Hoyt - Posted - 03/21/2020:  06:56:08

I build mostly 25.5" scale in-stock banjos since that is what most people seem to ask for, but in 2017 I made an ash internal resonator banjo with a 27" scale length and had it hanging up with the others. Several people came here to try banjos during the several months I had it, and as far as I can recall none of them noticed the longer scale length till I pointed it out to them, after they had played both sizes. I know there are some people who are physically unable to comfortably play larger instruments, due to arthritis or injuries or such, but based on this experience I believe that some people are less affected by scale length than they may think they are, and would notice if the difference was relatively minor, like an inch or so.
Zach

G Edward Porgie - Posted - 03/21/2020:  07:08:57

quote:

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Originally posted by Fathand

quote:

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Originally posted by G Edward Porgie

 I can play a 26 1/4 inch scale, but I'd dislocate my fingers trying to make the stretches required for a 27 1/2 inch scale.

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According to my fret calculator the difference at the first fret is .07" slightly more than 1/16" .

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It's not just the first fret that's involved. All of the frets are further apart, and the cumulative effects of that can make a simple four fret stretch more difficult.

Alex Z - Posted - 03/21/2020:  09:30:41

That's right, have to look at the reaches, both for stretches and movements.

If the scale difference is 1.25 different, then the nut to 5th fret is a quarter of that different, or .313 different -- almost a third of an inch.  That's a material difference in being able to fret a clear note on the 5th fret while holding down the 2nd fret for example.

And, the nut to 12th fret difference is half, or .75" different.  This is about the width of a fret different.  So if you're playing a C chord in the first position, and then have to hit the high D on the 1st string, you could end up on the 13th fret or the 11th fret, depending what banjo you're used to.

This may not be a problem for those who are used to playing both scales.  They may have developed a sense of spatial reference on both instruments with different scales, just like having spatial references on a banjo, guitar, and mandolin at the same time.

trussrod - Posted - 03/21/2020:  09:42:45

I read several years ago that current Epiphone banjos were manufactured by a Korean firm (Samick) that manufactures everything from violins to pianos.

I have a friend who owned Samick (branded) 4-string plectrum banjo that looked like a masterclone. After being well set up it sounded to me like a mid-range banjo.

-Garry

hawthorne.fastie.com/asianbanjos/af.php

G Edward Porgie - Posted - 03/21/2020:  12:14:26

After years of experience with trying to service Samick pianos, I'd say they make everything from violins to pieces of garbage.

Maybe their banjos are okay, but I wouldn't touch a Samick piano with somebody else's fingers.

DRH - Posted - 03/21/2020:  16:55:00

Like any rebrand manufacturer, Samick makes whatever the customer wants - jewels to junk. They made Fender, Squier, Epiphone, Guild, and Gretsch Guitars. Most of these were good quality.

Samick built a plant in Indonesia in 1992 to cut labor costs. I think that is where they started building junk.

Indonesia now has several manufacturers and some build very good instruments.

The biggest problem with Asian rebrand manufactured instruments is lack of documentation. You don't know what you are getting because the brand owners don't know or care. In some cases you don't even know where the instrument was built.

GHS - Posted - 03/21/2020:  19:32:13

As I mentioned yesterday, I went through the measurements again.
The scale length is 27.5 inches based on 13.75 inches from nut to 12th fret.
I checked the fret spacing using the StewMac fret spacing calculator. All frets are spaced properly for a 27.5 inch scale.
Prognosis: it is a 27.5 inch scale banjo. After playing it a while, it is quite acceptable. In fact, for an entry level instrument, it surpasses my expectations. I'm happy! Thanks again y'all.