v silly - Posted - 12/11/2018:  10:30:16

Hello folks, I have been building some banjos for the banjo player in my life. While experimenting with sounds we started out with nylon strings which were not bright enough and also tend to roll under your fingers. Eventually after much experimenting went to Savarez Alliance Fluorocarbon strings and really liked the sound. The fluorocarbon strings do not roll under your fingers but are stable more like a steel string.

(Just an FYI for folks who might be interested, you can buy Savarez Alliance strings individually and make your own custom sets: Strings by Mail Alliance 1 meter singles )

I am interested in trying Nylgut strings to see if the tone is better, however before I invest in ordering strings I wondered if anyone can tell me whether they exhibit this behavior of rolling under the fingers like standard nylon strings do? Thank you very much in advance for your answers.

banjered - Posted - 12/11/2018:  13:44:33

WHICH nylon strings did you try? Fishing line? La Bella? Not sure what you mean "rolling under the fingers?" banjered

davidppp - Posted - 12/11/2018:  14:58:29

Fluorocarbon is considerably denser than nylon. (It's used for fishing line that sinks instead of floats.) That means you can get strings that are both a bit thinner than nylon (which brightens he tone and increases the sustain) and tune to pitch at a higher tension. I suspect that the lower tension of common nylon strings is what gives you the "roll." Aquila strings are also denser than nylon, with similar consequences. Their actual density varies because they have changed the polymer formulation and diameters several times, but they will certainly be in the directions you liked -- at least as compared to nylon.

davidppp - Posted - 12/11/2018:  14:58:37

Fluorocarbon is considerably denser than nylon. (It's used for fishing line that sinks instead of floats.) That means you can get strings that are both a bit thinner than nylon (which brightens he tone and increases the sustain) and tune to pitch at a higher tension. I suspect that the lower tension of common nylon strings is what gives you the "roll." Aquila strings are also denser than nylon, with similar consequences. Their actual density varies because they have changed the polymer formulation and diameters several times, but they will certainly be in the directions you liked -- at least as compared to nylon.

davidppp - Posted - 12/11/2018:  17:03:07

(My new computer is TOTALLY out of control!)

G Edward Porgie - Posted - 12/11/2018:  18:39:07

Sorry to hear about your new computer. I hope it isn't named HAL.

v silly - Posted - 12/18/2018:  14:37:21

Hello, sorry I didn't get back to this post, I accidentally wasn't subscribed so I didn't know I had any replies. The nylon strings we tried were standard classical ball end strings. I think they were Martin. They were nylon with a wound fourth. What I meant by the string rolling is that various playing movements will call cause the string to roll over under your finger. If you've ever played guitar and tried to bend strings on a nylon guitar you will know what I mean. I am a guitar player but built this banjo for the banjo player I play with. She said that the Savarez fluorocarbon strings did not roll but the standard nylon ones did.



I just put a set of Nylgut medium on this banjo, not sure I have the right weight for the 24 scale. Seems like maybe they won't roll but I won't really know until she plays it because I don't play banjo and my attempts to simulate banjo playing are pretty sad LOL

Edited by - v silly on 12/18/2018 14:38:16

DonH60 - Posted - 12/19/2018:  13:39:47

Not to hijack the thread but am intrigued by the fluorocarbon strings. Any thoughts about what diameters would make up a 5 string set?

I have been dissatisfied with strings of late. My favorite non-steel strings are the old red nylguts. Not so much with current reds or New Nylguts.

v silly - Posted - 12/19/2018:  14:11:41

On my 24 scale we were using the first four strings of a classical normal tension set Savarez Alliance 540R. According to my notes string weights were 24, 27, 33, 29. On our 24 scale the first three string seemed OK but the 29 was a bit floppy and buzzed a little unless the action was high. My observation would be that the flourocarbon strings are brighter than normal nylon but less bright than Nylgut. Flourocarbon strings seem have more lower mids then the Nylgut, which on our banjo seem to have more upper mids. Not sure what weights would be appropriate for a standard scale banjo...

rudy - Posted - 12/19/2018:  17:37:09

quote:

---

Originally posted by DonH60

Not to hijack the thread but am intrigued by the fluorocarbon strings. Any thoughts about what diameters would make up a 5 string set?



I have been dissatisfied with strings of late. My favorite non-steel strings are the old red nylguts. Not so much with current reds or New Nylguts.

---

It's a bit of a complex issue.

If you find a nylon set that's appropriate based on your chosen scale length and tuning be aware that you can't simply change over to fluorocarbon strings using the same diameters.  Fluorocarbons are considerably denser, so the diameter will end up being smaller if you're tightening to the equivalent tension or shooting for the same pitch.

That's the downside of fluorocarbon; it sounds brighter, but the string will be smaller and possibly feel too small for a good under-hand feel.

As an example, if you find appropriate gauges of Savarez rectified nylon (something similar to the LaBella 17 set...) then you can't switch to the same diameters of Savarez Alliance fluorocarbon strings.  I wish there was a chart produced where you could just find the substitute string between the diverse materials but it isn't commonly available as far as I know.

What you'll find if you go with fluorocarbon is that you may be uncomfortable with the smaller diameter, even though the tone may be perceived as better.

I like the Aquila "Super or New" Nylgut strings just fine and find it tunes well, intonates pretty well, settles in relatively quickly, and has good tone and volume.  YMMV.

Edited by - rudy on 12/19/2018 17:43:34

davidppp - Posted - 12/22/2018:  23:13:42

"I wish there was a chart produced where you could just find the substitute string between the diverse materials but it isn't commonly available as far as I know."

It's really quite simple in terms of the material densities (which you only have to know roughly).  It's buried in the last thing I wrote up:  Extra Extra Light Steel Strings (its.caltech.edu/~politzer/xtra...ights.pdf) -- bottom p.4 and top p.5.  I just ordered a new scale and was thinking to do just what you're wishing for when it arrives ("not before Xmas"). 

Rudy: I'm imagining that by "substitute" you mean with the same tension.  Yes?  That's the most obvious question,  However, when considering a different material, there's always the possibility of compromises.  Going to a denser material, you can choose to both increase the tension somewhat and decrease the diameter.

rudy - Posted - 12/23/2018:  06:59:02

quote:

---

Originally posted by davidppp

"I wish there was a chart produced where you could just find the substitute string between the diverse materials but it isn't commonly available as far as I know."

It's really quite simple in terms of the material densities (which you only have to know roughly).  It's buried in the last thing I wrote up:  Extra Extra Light Steel Strings (its.caltech.edu/~politzer/xtra...ights.pdf) -- bottom p.4 and top p.5.  I just ordered a new scale and was thinking to do just what you're wishing for when it arrives ("not before Xmas"). 

Rudy: I'm imagining that by "substitute" you mean with the same tension.  Yes?  That's the most obvious question,  However, when considering a different material, there's always the possibility of compromises.  Going to a denser material, you can choose to both increase the tension somewhat and decrease the diameter.

---

Hi David,

More or less, yes.  My point is more that the two materials aren't directly "interchangeable".  Going from rectified nylon to fluorocarbon (or vice versa...) means that you will need to adjust either to to the change in feel, nut slot size, tension, or pitch relationship.

There's no free lunch when we radically change a physical parameter of the instrument, string material not withstanding. 

G Edward Porgie - Posted - 12/23/2018:  12:17:59

One thing to remember about string materials is that tension and feel are not the only thing that is affected. The tone color will also vary from one material to another.

David Moore - Posted - 01/16/2019:  10:35:58

I too have had a trial finding just right nylon strings. One of my Doc's came with nylon and they were wonderful but sadly aged. I experimented with the other and several different nylon for banjo and they were all wimpy. I kept pulling the first string off the fingerboard, I know, I know my playing style. I recently bought a set of D'Addario Pro-Arte EJ44 "extra hard tension" and while they are guitar strings and I had to fiddle with finding a 5th they so far are doing the trick for me. I am playing Doc's with all wood rim and tone rings and these strings suit my ear and aggressive pull off's on the first.

rudy - Posted - 01/16/2019:  15:58:40

quote:

---

Originally posted by David Moore

I too have had a trial finding just right nylon strings. One of my Doc's came with nylon and they were wonderful but sadly aged. I experimented with the other and several different nylon for banjo and they were all wimpy. I kept pulling the first string off the fingerboard, I know, I know my playing style. I recently bought a set of D'Addario Pro-Arte EJ44 "extra hard tension" and while they are guitar strings and I had to fiddle with finding a 5th they so far are doing the trick for me. I am playing Doc's with all wood rim and tone rings and these strings suit my ear and aggressive pull off's on the first.

---

So what came on your Doc's and can't you simply get the same thing?

Why was there difficulty with the fifth?  It should have been the same as the first string.

David Moore - Posted - 01/16/2019:  16:31:42

The D'addario I mentioned are guitar strings no duplicates. The nylon strings that came on the used Doc's were unmarked and old and the prior owner didn't remember what they were.