ArbenTafkar - Posted - 11/16/2018:  16:52:45

I sure am glad I found out about cut-time. I was thinking to myself, "In order to play for speed, i'm going to have to play at 220bpm." Then I found out about cut-time. So here's my question; Is it better to start with cut-time as a beginner? I'm working with Earl's book. All in 2/4, but he never mentions why. Not to my recollection, anyway.

bellf - Posted - 11/16/2018:  17:05:38

My guess is that it was Bill Keith who chose to notate the music in 2/4 time. I wish he had chosen 2/2 time (which is what cut time really is). 2/2 time still has two main pulses per measure, but the you use eighth notes instead of sixteenth notes, leading to less clutter on the page.

If you're using a metronome, the question can be rephrased as "should I play 2 notes per click or 4 notes per click?" I reckon 2 notes per click is easier when you're starting, but 4 notes per click is better when you start playing faster.

I hope this makes sense -- I'm happy to elaborate if it doesn't.

Mooooo - Posted - 11/16/2018:  17:56:36

You can't hear a difference between 2/4 or 2/2. Neither is faster than the other. They both have two beats per measure (shown by the top number), the difference is the note that represents the beat (the bottom number, quarter note or half note). These both work equally well for most bluegrass music. They will both generally have 4 notes per beat (click), once in a while you get longer notes for those pinches etc... I prefer to see 2/4 because that's what I was raised on. But neither way is inherently better, some prefer more flags and some prefer less, you get used to them.

Edited by - Mooooo on 11/16/2018 18:02:43

Jack Baker - Posted - 11/17/2018:  13:52:15

Good answer Mike and others,

It's largely where the composer wants to accent the beat. Back when Bill Keith wrote out these tabs, printers preferred 2/4 for banjo music. Bill had no reason for 2/4 time over 4/4 time. It's just what printers used to display banjo bluegrass speedy picking.  You are right Mike in that you probably/can't, hear a difference the 2/4, 2/2 or 4/4 with regards to bluegrass banjo playing.

When many of the Classical composer used these signatures, that definitely had a reason in that they wanted to capture certain pulses in the composition....Good post...Jack p.s. I personally like 4/4 as it's easier to read and teach beginning students....less eye noise on the page

 

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Originally posted by Mooooo

You can't hear a difference between 2/4 or 2/2. Neither is faster than the other. They both have two beats per measure (shown by the top number), the difference is the note that represents the beat (the bottom number, quarter note or half note). These both work equally well for most bluegrass music. They will both generally have 4 notes per beat (click), once in a while you get longer notes for those pinches etc... I prefer to see 2/4 because that's what I was raised on. But neither way is inherently better, some prefer more flags and some prefer less, you get used to them.

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Edited by - Jack Baker on 11/17/2018 13:54:35

ArbenTafkar - Posted - 11/22/2018:  09:44:26

Thank you all for your responses. Most helpful. I'll just keep chuggin' along.

Rawhide Creek - Posted - 11/22/2018:  22:29:14

quote:

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Originally posted by Mooooo

You can't hear a difference between 2/4 or 2/2. Neither is faster than the other. They both have two beats per measure (shown by the top number), the difference is the note that represents the beat (the bottom number, quarter note or half note). These both work equally well for most bluegrass music. They will both generally have 4 notes per beat (click), once in a while you get longer notes for those pinches etc... I prefer to see 2/4 because that's what I was raised on. But neither way is inherently better, some prefer more flags and some prefer less, you get used to them.

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When I tab, I use 2/2.  Of course, if I am using conventional notation, I use alto clef because then all notes sound “as written” rather than an octave below.

Ira Gitlin - Posted - 11/23/2018:  07:10:19

FWIW, Pete Seeger was using 2/4 time in his book, which predates Keith's work by several years. Like Keith, Seeger had formal musical training, and in fact Keith used Seeger's book (the second edition, I think, not the current edition) when he was starting to learn banjo.

Mooooo - Posted - 11/23/2018:  10:53:58

quote:

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Originally posted by Rawhide Creek

quote:

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Originally posted by Mooooo

You can't hear a difference between 2/4 or 2/2...

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When I tab, I use 2/2.  Of course, if I am using conventional notation, I use alto clef because then all notes sound “as written” rather than an octave below.

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Of course.

Banjo Lefty - Posted - 11/23/2018:  16:24:23

Arben, you are confusing the time signature with the tempo. A time signature does not tell you how fast or how slow the piece is to be played. You can play 4/4, 2/4, and 2/2 all at the exact same speed. What the time signature does is tell you what the pulse is, and what type of note represents that pulse. In 4/4, the accents are Strong, weak, medium, weak, where each is carried by a quarter note, four to a bar. In 2/4, the pulse is Strong, weak, each one again a quarter note, two per bar. In 2/2, the pulse is again Strong, weak, but this time there are two half notes per bar.

Tempo, on the other hand, tells you how many beats there are per minute. Most sheet music has a metronome marking, shown as an equation, something like “quarter note = 72” which means that the player will play 72 quarter notes per minute. If you see a string of eighth notes in that piece therefore, those eighth notes will be played at the rate of 144 per minute, sixteenth notes at the rate of 288 per minute, etc.

72 beats per minute in 2/4 time is very fast. The Earl Scruggs book is written in 2/4 and has mostly 8 sixteenth notes per bar. I would start off setting the metronome at 60, calling each click an eighth note, meaning two clicks per beat, and play two notes per click. Then I would gradually increase the setting on the metronome, one step at a time, until I got to around 112, then I would drop back down to 60, only this time, I would call each click a quarter note, one click per beat, and play four notes per click, gradually increasing the tempo again until I was playing at speed.

Bottom line: don’t confuse beats per bar with beats per minute, and don’t confuse beats per minute with notes per minute.

Old Hickory - Posted - 11/23/2018:  17:51:22

quote:

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Originally posted by ArbenTafkar

I was thinking to myself, "In order to play for speed, i'm going to have to play at 220bpm." Then I found out about cut-time. So here's my question; Is it better to start with cut-time as a beginner?

---

A guy goes into a pizza shop and asks for a small pizza to go.

"Would you like it cut into 6 slices or 8?" asks the pizza man.

"Better make it 6," says the customer. "I don't think I could eat 8."

RB3 - Posted - 11/23/2018:  19:54:25

Banjo Lefty suggests that a tempo of 72 beats/minute in 2/4 time is very fast.  I have to respectfully disagree with that statement.  A tempo of 72 beats/minute in 2/4 time is actually quite slow. 

Typically, a moderate tempo, Bluegrass vocal such as Blue Ridge Cabin Home is played at about 120-130 beats/minute in 2/4 time.  Below is a YouTube link to the Flatt & Scruggs classic recording of Blue Ridge Cabin Home. 

youtube.com/watch?v=WCKBD17GKV4

The instrumental solo that Scruggs plays in that YouTube recording of Blue Ridge Cabin Home is documented in both standard musical notation and tablature in his banjo instruction book.  The time signature is 2/4 and the solo he plays consists of 16 measures.  Since the time signature is 2/4, each measure has two beats. 

The second solo that Scruggs takes in the YouTube recording starts at the 2:22 mark and ends at the 2:37 mark, for a total of 15 seconds.  Using a little dimensional analysis we can determine the actual tempo of Scruggs' solo. 

16 measures/15 seconds  X  2 beats/measure  X  60 seconds/minute = 128 beats/minute

A "fast" Bluegrass instrumental such as Foggy Mountain Breakdown, is played at a tempo of about 160 beats/minute in 2/4 time.

G Edward Porgie - Posted - 11/23/2018:  20:57:07

quote:

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Originally posted by Old Hickory

quote:

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Originally posted by ArbenTafkar

I was thinking to myself, "In order to play for speed, i'm going to have to play at 220bpm." Then I found out about cut-time. So here's my question; Is it better to start with cut-time as a beginner?

---

A guy goes into a pizza shop and asks for a small pizza to go.

"Would you like it cut into 6 slices or 8?" asks the pizza man.

"Better make it 6," says the customer. "I don't think I could eat 8."

---

This one gave me a laugh.

mmuussiiccaall - Posted - 11/23/2018:  21:25:24

Tempos and keys for F&S

F&S

 

Rawhide Creek - Posted - 11/24/2018:  07:44:56

quote:

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Originally posted by G Edward Porgie

quote:

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Originally posted by Old Hickory

quote:

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Originally posted by ArbenTafkar

I was thinking to myself, "In order to play for speed, i'm going to have to play at 220bpm." Then I found out about cut-time. So here's my question; Is it better to start with cut-time as a beginner?

---

A guy goes into a pizza shop and asks for a small pizza to go.

"Would you like it cut into 6 slices or 8?" asks the pizza man.

"Better make it 6," says the customer. "I don't think I could eat 8."

---

This one gave me a laugh.

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Me, too!

TNCarl - Posted - 11/24/2018:  16:45:32

Well, I've been playing almost 3.5 years now. I practice every day for over an hour a day, and still I'm lucky to get 75 bpm (4 notes per beat of the metronome), but making sure I'm playing with good tone and with all notes sounding clearly.
I don't consider myself a slow learner, and I'm pretty well coordinated.
I guess it's just going to take another 3.5 years to get to 100 bpm, even if then, and now I'm hearing 120 bpm is slow. Woe is me!
Carl

Banjo Lefty - Posted - 11/24/2018:  21:42:22

quote:

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Originally posted by RB3

Banjo Lefty suggests that a tempo of 72 beats/minute in 2/4 time is very fast.  I have to respectfully disagree with that statement.  A tempo of 72 beats/minute in 2/4 time is actually quite slow. 

Typically, a moderate tempo, Bluegrass vocal such as Blue Ridge Cabin Home is played at about 120-130 beats/minute in 2/4 time.  Below is a YouTube link to the Flatt & Scruggs classic recording of Blue Ridge Cabin Home. 

youtube.com/watch?v=WCKBD17GKV4

The instrumental solo that Scruggs plays in that YouTube recording of Blue Ridge Cabin Home is documented in both standard musical notation and tablature in his banjo instruction book.  The time signature is 2/4 and the solo he plays consists of 16 measures.  Since the time signature is 2/4, each measure has two beats. 

The second solo that Scruggs takes in the YouTube recording starts at the 2:22 mark and ends at the 2:37 mark, for a total of 15 seconds.  Using a little dimensional analysis we can determine the actual tempo of Scruggs' solo. 

16 measures/15 seconds  X  2 beats/measure  X  60 seconds/minute = 128 beats/minute

A "fast" Bluegrass instrumental such as Foggy Mountain Breakdown, is played at a tempo of about 160 beats/minute in 2/4 time.

  

 

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Wayne, you’re right of course, but you’re talking about Earl Scruggs, and there’s not many who can play like him.  72 beats per minute is 288 sixteenth notes per minute, which is fast for a beginner, and even for most intermediate players.