WayneConrad - Posted - 11/01/2018:  12:52:22

I was practicing minor cords when I accidentally augmented the fifth, so instead of

1 b3 5

I was playing

1 b3 +5

It sounds good and strongly wants to resolve back to the minor cord.

Does this cord have a name? How is it notated?

Mooooo - Posted - 11/01/2018:  13:04:47

quote:

---

Originally posted by WayneConrad

I was practicing minor cords when I accidentally augmented the fifth, so instead of



1 b3 5



I was playing



1 b3 +5



It sounds good and strongly wants to resolve back to the minor cord.



Does this cord have a name? How is it notated?

---

You will make a Major Chord. If you start with a G chord (G, B, and D) then you flat the 3rd (Bb) then sharp the 5 (D#, or Eb) you rearrange them in order you will have Eb, G and Bb which makes an Eb major chord. If you hold an F shape G chord and keep your fingers on the G notes and invert your first and second fingers you will have the D shape Eb chord if you are tuned to open G.

Edited by - Mooooo on 11/01/2018 13:18:59

mikebanjo - Posted - 11/01/2018:  13:26:09

Yes, as prior post said, it is an Eb. But I think that chord resolves to a G major chord. A folk group from the '60s, The Limeliters, used that progression to end lots of their songs. Try it out as an ending for songs you know in the key of G.

rfink1913 - Posted - 11/01/2018:  16:42:52

**WARNING: NERD THEORY ALERT**

The name for this chord progression is the L, or "leading tone exchange" progression (Leichtonwechsel in the original 19th-ct. German). As it turns out, there are precisely three ways you can get from one triad to another by moving only a single note by a single step:

1 3 5 --> 1 b3 5 ("parallel", or P)

1 3 5 --> 1 3 6 ("relative", or R)

1 b3 5 --> 1 b3 b6 ("leading tone exchange", or L)

You executed the third, where the fifth of a minor triad is reinterpreted as a leading tone to the minor sixth, with which it "exchanges" places, creating a major triad in first inversion.

By applying these progressions in combination you can get to some wild places, like from C major to Ab minor:

P = CEG -> CEbG
L = CEbG -> CEbAb
P = CEbAb -> CbEbAb

Or how about this one, from C major to (enharmonically) Db major?

R = CEG -> CEA
P = CEA -> C#EA
L = C#EA -> C#EG# (aka DbFbAb)
P = DbFbAb -> DbFAb

If you play piano, this stuff is fun to do in sequence...it's like a tonal magic carpet ride!

G Edward Porgie - Posted - 11/01/2018:  19:26:09

quote:

---

Originally posted by rfink1913

**WARNING: NERD THEORY ALERT**



The name for this chord progression is the L, or "leading tone exchange" progression (Leichtonwechsel in the original 19th-ct. German). As it turns out, there are precisely three ways you can get from one triad to another by moving only a single note by a single step:



1 3 5 --> 1 b3 5 ("parallel", or P)



1 3 5 --> 1 3 6 ("relative", or R)



1 b3 5 --> 1 b3 b6 ("leading tone exchange", or L)



You executed the third, where the fifth of a minor triad is reinterpreted as a leading tone to the minor sixth, with which it "exchanges" places, creating a major triad in first inversion.



By applying these progressions in combination you can get to some wild places, like from C major to Ab minor:



P = CEG -> CEbG

L = CEbG -> CEbAb

P = CEbAb -> CbEbAb



Or how about this one, from C major to (enharmonically) Db major?



R = CEG -> CEA

P = CEA -> C#EA

L = C#EA -> C#EG# (aka DbFbAb)

P = DbFbAb -> DbFAb



If you play piano, this stuff is fun to do in sequence...it's like a tonal magic carpet ride!

---

I have to point out that one can also get to a different triad by altering the "1."  Certainly, (Key of C major) if one drops that 1 ("C") down a half step to the leading tone, it gets you to B, E, G, which is a second inversion E minor triad.

I will agree, though, that there are only the three stated in you comment that can take a person to a triad that is not in the original key.

WayneConrad - Posted - 11/02/2018:  07:02:03

Wow, I wasn't expecting the answer to be so simple, not to have such deep implications. I didn't notice at all that I was making a major chord shape that I know well. It's understandable because my fingering wasn't what I usually use for that shape, and my mind was so focused on the minor chord, but still embarrassing.

There's a lot here to chew on in your answers. Thank you for the theory nerd explanations, which give me much to think about.

G Edward Porgie - Posted - 11/02/2018:  10:45:58

quote:

---

Originally posted by WayneConrad

Wow, I wasn't expecting the answer to be so simple, not to have such deep implications. I didn't notice at all that I was making a major chord shape that I know well. It's understandable because my fingering wasn't what I usually use for that shape, and my mind was so focused on the minor chord, but still embarrassing.



There's a lot here to chew on in your answers. Thank you for the theory nerd explanations, which give me much to think about.

---

Don't think about it too much. People's heads have been known to explode when their minds wander through the "Music Theory" minefield.

mmuussiiccaall - Posted - 11/02/2018:  11:31:05

The missing factor here would be a bass player would wanna know what is the root note that you want, it could be any of the 12 notes in an octave. This will totally change the function of the chord.

Mooooo - Posted - 11/02/2018:  11:42:08

You can add any number of musicians and come up with the craziest chords, but the question is about three specific notes.

chuckv97 - Posted - 11/02/2018:  16:14:53

quote:

---

Originally posted by mikebanjo

Yes, as prior post said, it is an Eb. But I think that chord resolves to a G major chord. A folk group from the '60s, The Limeliters, used that progression to end lots of their songs. Try it out as an ending for songs you know in the key of G.

---

That would be the “Amen” ending?  F minor7 resolving to C?  (maybe)

WayneConrad - Posted - 11/02/2018:  17:17:02

I was tuned to old standard C, but practicing making Fm up and down the neck when I played the accidental chord.



When I asked, I was thinking of the chord in question in the context of Fm, since it sounded to me like the accidental chord wanted to resolve to the Fm I was trying to make. So if the minor chord I was trying to make was the key, the i chord,

then the accidental 1 b3 +5 is an inversion of Db (VI).



Now I have an idea of what the VI sounds like in the natural minor scale, which is very cool.



Theory does make my head explode, but it's a good kind of explosion.

I apologize for not giving more context when I asked the question.

Edited by - WayneConrad on 11/02/2018 17:22:53

mikebanjo - Posted - 11/02/2018:  19:40:09

Don't know about the "Amen" ending but a G# major chord would resolve to C major chord in the key of C and an A major chord would resolve to a a Db major chord.

mikebanjo - Posted - 11/02/2018:  19:53:28

And the Fm7 chord has the same shape and sound as a G# major chord in G tuning. I am giving these examples of what I would call . . . "Limeliter end of their songs progressions " .. . . . Eb to G, G# to C, A to Db, A# to D, etc.

G Edward Porgie - Posted - 11/02/2018:  20:32:31

quote:

---

Originally posted by chuckv97

quote:

---

Originally posted by mikebanjo

Yes, as prior post said, it is an Eb. But I think that chord resolves to a G major chord. A folk group from the '60s, The Limeliters, used that progression to end lots of their songs. Try it out as an ending for songs you know in the key of G.

---

That would be the “Amen” ending?  F minor7 resolving to C?  (maybe)

---

The "Amen,"or in theory terminology, plagal cadence, is IV-I. In key of Cmajor, that would be F major (no seventh) to Cmajor.

Edited by - G Edward Porgie on 11/02/2018 20:33:57

Rawhide Creek - Posted - 11/03/2018:  00:35:15

Music theory, in this forum, is often like Star Trek:  To boldly go where no one has gone before.

Edited by - Rawhide Creek on 11/03/2018 00:42:43

 

banjoak - Posted - 11/03/2018:  01:09:01

quote:

---

Originally posted by WayneConrad

I was tuned to old standard C, but practicing making Fm up and down the neck when I played the accidental chord.



When I asked, I was thinking of the chord in question in the context of Fm, since it sounded to me like the accidental chord wanted to resolve to the Fm I was trying to make. So if the minor chord I was trying to make was the key, the i chord,

then the accidental 1 b3 +5 is an inversion of Db (VI).



Now I have an idea of what the VI sounds like in the natural minor scale, which is very cool.



Theory does make my head explode, but it's a good kind of explosion.

I apologize for not giving more context when I asked the question.

---

It depends on context.  

Instead of a augmented 5,  you are playing a minor 6 note.  

This could make for a Db chord; but as well can and is often used as a sus6 of the Fm chord... still often note the bass would still play F. (as opposed to Db)... which wants to pull back into the regular Fm.

chuckv97 - Posted - 11/03/2018:  08:28:43

quote:

---

Originally posted by G Edward Porgie

quote:

---

Originally posted by chuckv97

quote:

---

Originally posted by mikebanjo

Yes, as prior post said, it is an Eb. But I think that chord resolves to a G major chord. A folk group from the '60s, The Limeliters, used that progression to end lots of their songs. Try it out as an ending for songs you know in the key of G.

---

That would be the “Amen” ending?  F minor7 resolving to C?  (maybe)

---

The "Amen,"or in theory terminology, plagal cadence, is IV-I. In key of Cmajor, that would be F major (no seventh) to Cmajor.

---

Right,, but I’ve heard it played with the lV minor

Rawhide Creek - Posted - 11/03/2018:  18:25:50

quote:

---

Originally posted by chuckv97

quote:

---

Originally posted by G Edward Porgie

quote:

---

Originally posted by chuckv97

quote:

---

Originally posted by mikebanjo

Yes, as prior post said, it is an Eb. But I think that chord resolves to a G major chord. A folk group from the '60s, The Limeliters, used that progression to end lots of their songs. Try it out as an ending for songs you know in the key of G.

---

That would be the “Amen” ending?  F minor7 resolving to C?  (maybe)

---

The "Amen,"or in theory terminology, plagal cadence, is IV-I. In key of Cmajor, that would be F major (no seventh) to Cmajor.

---

Right,, but I’ve heard it played with the lV minor

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“If you wear a hard hat, you can be a miner, too.”

(Apology to the Smothers Brothers for the paraphrase.)

chuckv97 - Posted - 11/03/2018:  18:53:34

Did somebody mention mining....?
youtu.be/-FPmSLzsbdM

Rawhide Creek - Posted - 11/03/2018:  22:07:49

Summer, 1969.

I was crossing North Dakota from west to east, on my way to Fargo for a job.  (Yeah, that sound like the setup for a joke, but it isn’t.)

I stopped along the way to buy lunch and grab a beer.  I was 19, but had never been carded anywhere, anywhen.  As I was paying for my purchase (which included sandwiches, a 6-pack of beer, and a pack of “Wings” cigarettes, which were kept in the cooler), the guy behind the counter asked, “Are you a minor?”  I experience panic but replied, “No!”  He said, “Well, I asked because of that hard hat in the back of your car.”

Aha!  As an active caver, I had my hard hat on the rear shelf of the car.  And, yes, he meant “miner”.  

Sometimes truth is indeed stranger (and funnier) than fiction.

chuckv97 - Posted - 11/05/2018:  20:21:04

Ya ok, Russ, hah.... but you never finished the joke..., you know , about a job in Fargo...?

G Edward Porgie - Posted - 11/06/2018:  09:43:32

Russ said in his comment that it sounded like a setup for a joke, but that it wasn't.

You'll have to make up your own joke.

Laurence Diehl - Posted - 11/06/2018:  14:42:28

I thought the joke had something to do with Ab miner.