Mooooo - Posted - 10/16/2018:  14:10:33

Cadences are used all over the place in every type of music. Do any of you ever identify them? I'm not talking about 1-4-5 progressions. I am thinking of a more scholarly interpretation. Have you ever been listening to a banjo tune and think "that was a great use of the Plagal Cadence", or "hmm, that Perfect Cadence was amazing"?



I am aware that they exist, but I never studied them and can't identify them by listening. But, I would like to be able to. I think the only way I could remember them is to find some practical application of theory.



Can any of you give me some examples of cadences being used in banjo music? Can you link a video at a certain time or quote the time where a specific cadence is being used? I think that I, and others would appreciate the education.



Thanks.

Edited by - Mooooo on 10/16/2018 17:06:05

Richard Hauser - Posted - 10/16/2018:  16:07:07

Checked out "cadence" on wikipedia. Informative but a little over my head.

Mooooo - Posted - 10/16/2018:  16:17:22

quote:

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Originally posted by Richard Hauser

Checked out "cadence" on wikipedia. Informative but a little over my head.

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That's why I am asking people who know to include examples of the music. Reading about it is too abstract, I am hoping for some practical examples. I am hoping that I am not the only one who would like to learn this.

Edited by - Mooooo on 10/16/2018 16:28:38

BigFiveChord - Posted - 10/16/2018:  16:42:30

For me, the "cadence" terminology (especially as detailed in that Wikipedia article) is not very useful. Classical music theory/analysis uses the word "cadence" to mean "resolution," typically at the end of a phrase or song.

A "perfect cadence" is when a phrase/song ends with V-I. Tons of bluegrass songs end V-I.

A "plagal cadence" is when a phrase/song ends with IV-I ("Ah-men"). Slightly fewer tons of bluegrass songs end IV-I.

An "interrupted" or "deceptive" cadence is when you think it's going V-I but it goes V-vi instead. Less common in banjo music, but there are a bunch of Native American-themed tunes that uses the vi chord in a similar way.

And on and on. It's the classical music world's way of identifying tropes for ending songs. The Bluegrass banjo equivalent might be a list of common licks for ending a tune.

mmuussiiccaall - Posted - 10/16/2018:  17:07:58

Cadences open up a can of worms that are I would say are not needed for this forum.

Mooooo - Posted - 10/16/2018:  17:14:38

quote:

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Originally posted by mmuussiiccaall

Cadences open up a can of worms that are I would say are not needed for this forum.

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So, your opinion is that we shouldn't talk about music theory in the Music Theory Forum? How could any discussion of theory not be needed? I think it's needed if someone asks the question. Now if you don't want to talk about it, then I suggest you just don't. There's no need to tell anyone about it though.

Edited by - Mooooo on 10/16/2018 17:15:26

BigFiveChord - Posted - 10/16/2018:  17:49:23

Mike, for a specific example of a perfect cadence:

youtu.be/zDgYN5qeG4Y?t=25

"...roll in my sweet baby's arms," the end of the verse, happens over V-I (D-G).

It's not complicated, it's just classical music terminology.

BigFiveChord - Posted - 10/16/2018:  18:01:09

Specific example of a plagal cadence: "Let it Be"

youtu.be/QDYfEBY9NM4?t=21

The phrase ends IV-I (F-C).

Mooooo - Posted - 10/16/2018:  18:03:27

quote:

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Originally posted by BigFiveChord

Mike, for a specific example of a perfect cadence:

youtu.be/zDgYN5qeG4Y?t=25

"...roll in my sweet baby's arms," the end of the verse, happens over V-I (D-G).

It's not complicated, it's just classical music terminology.

---

Thanks Jon, I know it probably isn't hard, but without knowing the different cadences and what they sound like, it seems hard. I think that with references, we may be able to learn this stuff. I think it would be fun to get into a discussion of Bluegrass or Old Time music and be able to speak intelligently about it with someone who is classically trained...and by classically trained, I mean studied it in school.

I just listened to the end of the verse, and now I am confident I can recognize it when I hear it next, thanks again Jon.

I'd love to learn more, if anyone is willing to share some knowledge.

mmuussiiccaall - Posted - 10/16/2018:  18:25:37

quote:

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Originally posted by Mooooo

quote:

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Originally posted by mmuussiiccaall

Cadences open up a can of worms that are I would say are not needed for this forum.

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So, your opinion is that we shouldn't talk about music theory in the Music Theory Forum? How could any discussion of theory not be needed? I think it's needed if someone asks the question. Now if you don't want to talk about it, then I suggest you just don't. There's no need to tell anyone about it though.

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OK Ok Mike this is the only cadence that I use because it is such surprise 

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Picardy_third

Mooooo - Posted - 10/16/2018:  19:16:49

quote:

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Originally posted by mmuussiiccaall

OK Ok Mike this is the only cadence that I use because it is such surprise 

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Picardy_third

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I wonder if there are any good examples of this in banjo music?

cjam - Posted - 10/17/2018:  00:02:24

I think most bluegrass outro licks end in a V I Perfect cadence. Interupted cadences are often found in modern jazz, where you are left hanging on an unresolved chord.

As someone mentioned, the Plagal (IV I ) is normally the 'amen' in hymns.

That's my simplistic take on it.

Rawhide Creek - Posted - 10/17/2018:  22:43:58

quote:

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Originally posted by BigFiveChord

Mike, for a specific example of a perfect cadence:

youtu.be/zDgYN5qeG4Y?t=25

"...roll in my sweet baby's arms," the end of the verse, happens over V-I (D-G).

It's not complicated, it's just classical music terminology.

---

Actually, it’s not “classical music terminology”; it is terminology associated with the “common practice” era.

Mike, no one I know is likely to say or think, “That was a great use of the plagal cadence” or “That perfect cadence was amazing”.  The reason:  It doesn’t matter what major key you are in, cadences (however named) are always the same, i.e., a perfect cadence is always V-I with certain notes (scale degrees/voices) in certain positions; likewise with a plagal cadence but using IV-I.  Minor keys are only slightly different.

The soi disant “Picardy cadence” (a.k.a. the “Picardy third”) came about because, for a time long ago, it was considered poor form to end a movement in a minor key with a minor tonic chord.  Solution:  Raise the third in the closing tonic chord.  (If you want to hear this concept abused in a wonderful manner, listen to the first movement of Beethoven’s 5th Symphony—nominally in C minor but he wraps it up with an extended section in C Major.)

The Wikipedia article is remarkably good, all things considered.  There are examples that can be heard.  Some of the descriptions won’t make complete sense to you unless you can (a) read a grand staff and (b) know how “voices” are arrayed and progress in four-part harmony.

If you’re seriously interested in theory, get an old copy of Piston or of Ottman and start at the beginning.  Ask questions when you run into something you don’t understand.  It helps to have a keyboard instrument, even an inexpensive one (and there are a lot of electronic ones out there).

Edited by - Rawhide Creek on 10/17/2018 22:46:11

Tractor1 - Posted - 10/18/2018:  06:17:43

I hate the way Redwood Hill trys to resolve on a C chord(iv)

Tractor1 - Posted - 10/18/2018:  06:26:23

In the key of G Earl mostly resolved with an A or F sharp note, which seems to be the most definite proclamation of"I'm done". Old time fiddle tunes use the E note instead of the F sharp sometimes which still works to my ear.

Minor key tunes never resolve as well to my ear.

Leonard Bernstien talked of resolving in one of his speeches and in a nutshell was an advocate of the semitone resolve being more definite.

Edited by - Tractor1 on 10/18/2018 06:38:14

Tractor1 - Posted - 10/18/2018:  06:41:48

Ok bubba after I sing the first verse ,you play a real quick cadence and go get us some suds,

RB3 - Posted - 10/18/2018:  07:23:00

Plagal? Picardy? Who are these guys? As Bill Monroe once said, "What'd they ever do?"

Rick McKeon - Posted - 10/18/2018:  08:24:04

Here's a simple arrangement of Amazing Grace youtube.com/watch?v=ixCUS5nmoS...=youtu.be

If you listen until the very end of the performance you will hear how I introduce the amen sound with a sus that I pull off to resolve it. Hymns are a natural for plagal cadence because a lot of times the congregation sings "amen" at the end, even if it is added on after the song has resolved to the 1 chord.

There are tabs for this arrangement on my website at rickmckeon.com on the Banjo Lessons page.

Rick