Paulie Ray - Posted - 08/20/2018:  05:03:30

This article has very compelling arguments for music education and learning to play an instrument. Hope you enjoy it! intellectualtakeout.org/articl...d-quality

KCJones - Posted - 08/20/2018:  05:49:10

I've got a comment about the reasons for this, but it's borderline political so I won't say it.

I will say this. My school district used to have a music program. It doesn't anymore. The youth do not control our policy decisions; you can't blame this one on millennials.

Joel Hooks - Posted - 08/20/2018:  05:56:31

I have noticed that in the banjo community the "ear player" is revered. Reading notation is discouraged with all kinds of "reasons" given (mostly by people who have not seen notation properly edited for 5 string banjo.

TAB is encouraged to a certain degree but play by numbers is not notation.

n1wr - Posted - 08/20/2018:  06:28:11

I was fortunate to have a father who was 'musically literate.' After learning guitar AND music theory from him - learning and understanding banjo was a breeze (except for the mechanics, of course). I can't tell you how many times I've stressed music theory to friends that are beginning musicians on various instruments - the importance of understanding the theory.

Educators know that playing an instrument sharpens one's learning skills, but ignore that fact, for what reason?

Public education is not in good shape. As Steven said this conversation turns political very quickly. It is unfortunate - as the article said the schools teach to the test. And any form of music isn't tested. So it doesn't make the cut. They need high test scores to survive.

Fortunately some parents recognize the importance and get their kids into music.

We are fortunate in our small county, very rural but has a great band leader (just retired) with a band that played the gator bowl last year, and has had many other great experiences. The band has had a tremendous influence on many of the students, a large percentage minority. Hopefully the school will find a way to maintain this program.

Good topic.

n1wr - Posted - 08/20/2018:  06:33:36

Playing by ear - good point. For those of us that don't (or can't)play by ear, knowing the theory is almost mandatory to being able to play. I think that's is a great void for those in this class. I would give just about anything (not my right arm) to be able to hear effectively. Just to be clear, when I was in a bar band in the sixties (before electronic tuners) the drummer would frequently tune my guitar out of frustration, listening to me trying to match tones with the keyboard.

Texasbanjo - Posted - 08/20/2018:  06:40:36

I can see both sides of this discussion.

I've known bluegrass pickers who have no theory "learning" at all, no book learning, no classroom learning, but can play circles around most any other picker. Many don't know what note(s) they are playing or even what chord(s) they are playing, but they can play better than many who are "schooled" in theory.

On the other hand, I can see where learning theory either in the classroom, by book, video or whatever, can help you in your musical journey.

I've also known people who were well versed in theory and couldn't pick a tune out by ear if their lives depended upon it.

I guess it depends on how you learn: visual, auditory or what ever other method you want to use.

G Edward Porgie - Posted - 08/20/2018:  07:13:55

I disagree somewhat, but not entirely with Joel, in that I find "ear playing" is also a musical skill. As he states, it's not the whole picture of good musicianship, but it is certainly a very valuable piece of it. I can't begin to imagine what Mozart's piano concertos would have sounded like if Mozart hadn't hear them in his head before writing them down.



I also have to say that while TAB may not be true notation, it is a form of notation, and has been around longer than the banjo.



However, I also take some issue with portions of the actual article. An example would be some of the arbitrary testing done by the cited scientist. He is basing all of his results on a rather narrow set of parameters, and probably doesn't listen to enough quality "new" music to understand the subtleties of timbres and the use made of them in some "pop" tunes. (This is something that is looked into more thoroughly in "This is Your Brain on Music" by Daniel J. Levin.)



I do agree with the overall sentiment of the article in that musical training is being ignored lately, and that it shouldn't be. I'm not sure that articles like this really help, however, in a world where education has become more of a results oriented rote learning process than an actual expansion of a young persons abilities to put facts and ideas together and arrive at solutions to complex problems. This is where articles like this one miss the boat, so to speak. If one wishes to regain some of the arts training (and I don't just mean musical arts) examples should be shown of people who have benefited from those arts when they've utilized the skills developed with arts training. Perhaps a few people like Einstein could be mentioned, whose btrain actually developed physical differences due to his violin playing (these, changes have been mentioned as helping his critical thinking) or Borodin, who not only composed music, or the many U.S. Presidents who played the piano. Even a fictional character like Sherlock Holmes might do; he many times played his violin while putting crime clues together.



We all might bemoan the fall of music in schools, but perhaps we should really be trying to revise the entire "cookie cutter" approach to education that has eliminated so many important fields like art, music, and literature, and replaced them with unintelligible word problems and time-consuming testing of supposed "progress." Progress towards what?





 

Edited by - G Edward Porgie on 08/20/2018 07:15:23

Ga-PorchPicker - Posted - 08/20/2018:  07:16:53

Interesting article. I started out playing acoustic guitar in the early '70's as a kid. Took a few lessons which taught me how to read  a little music. School band followed. But I found out early I could figure out how to play songs off the records by ear easily. Later took up other instruments. Playing by ear has always been easy for me. But I loved playing in High School Band. It breaks my heart to see these programs shutting down. I love that the bluegrass and oldtime community take the time to mentor kids. Here in Georgia we have the Pick and Bow program for kids to learn to play.

Edited by - Ga-PorchPicker on 08/20/2018 07:18:19

250gibson - Posted - 08/20/2018:  07:39:17

Knowing theory and how to read music can do nothing but help you become a better musician. I know people who play by ear and don't read music who are amazing musicians, however there is more opportunity for you as a musician if you read or know some theory.

My first foray into music education came in junior high when I was learning to play bass. I went to a music instructor who taught me to read in bass clef (I already knew some treble clef from the music class we all got in public school). All my friends were learning guitar and their instructors were teaching them all the Led Zeppelin, Black Sabbath, Rolling Stone, etc. tunes that were popular at the time; mainly from tab or see as I do then repeat type instruction. I on the other hand was writing out scales, intervals, chords, etc, and learning how to walk the bass from standard notation, then applying theory to do the same over charts from the Jazz "real book". At first I was frustrsted because jazz was not what I wanted to do. This became a "karate kid" type moment when I realized what he was teaching, actually turned out to be benifical to what I ultimately wanted to do, play rock music.

When I write music now, I do it in standard. It helps me visualize the melody and the counter point and chord harmonies very easily. Also, due to my foundation in theory, etc, I am able to improvise in banjo on the fly over any changes in any key, which ultimately helps me in jams. The worst thing I think anybody can do at a jam is to sit out a tune because you don't know it. This is a waste of your time. You should have some sort of foundation in theory to be able to improvise a convincing break and back up others. Folks that are able to do this, even though they may not read are in fact consciously or sub-consciously applying theory in real time, which is generally the goal at a jam session (bluegrass, jazz, blues, or any other type,of jam).

kwl - Posted - 08/20/2018:  07:56:05

This article sounds very much like conversations I have had with my son who is a professional musician. He bemoans that most popular music is computer produced rather than real people playing actual instruments. He had a good musical upbringing. We provided him piano lessons from second grade on. I school he started out on trumpet, switched to mallet percussion in high school. He took guitar lessons and played in the high school jazz band as well. He learned to read music and learned music theory. A graduate of Berklee College of Music, he now teaches music in a private school in the Los Angeles area, while engaging in other musical activities. He finds that his students are eager to learn music when given the opportunity, but not all students have the discipline and perseverance to stick with it. I think the article is a good starting point for discussing the role of music in our society. I am an old codger and can remember how we learned to sing when I was in school. I have attended many events over the years where our national anthem is sung by all. I recently attended a baseball game where all were asked to stand and sing the anthem. It seemed like only a few hundred people were able to so. Everyone else appeared to just watch the words scroll across the scoreboard. Yes, I think we are losing something important in our society.

csacwp - Posted - 08/20/2018:  10:05:13

Honestly there are no great musicians who only read. To be a great musician you have to be able to play by ear. That said, musical literacy and a solid foundation in theory are musts.

Bill Rogers - Posted - 08/20/2018:  10:11:14

Without getting into the politics of it, one major reason for the decline of music (and art) programs is the continuing and increasing demand for more and earlier work in the “hard” sciences and math, as well as demands that schools teach “life skills” that used to be learned at home. Enrichment subjects like music and art fall by the wayside as schools attempt to replace absent or incapable (for whatever reason) parents.

cjam - Posted - 08/20/2018:  14:43:13

It's a many facetted argument. I envy people who can hear a chord and improvise instinctively within it. I know many people who can read, but are constrained by the written music. I have a foot in both camps.
As a chilling example of the current trend of schools cancelling their music programs, my wife (who is a teacher) came home one day and told me that her school had thrown all their instruments in the dumpster. A symphonic bands worth of them, plus about 50 keyboards. Because the school had no music teacher, and music wasn't seen as important. I asked her to rescue anything she could, and she brought home a shiny newish tuba, a gleaming alto sax and a keyboard. Some people had rescued other stuff, but a lot just got carted away. Disgraceful. I can't understand this logic.

On the plus side, I taught myself the Star Wars Imperial March on the tuba. (Sigh).

mbuk06 - Posted - 08/20/2018:  15:33:05

Music engagement comes before 'music literacy'.



I've read educationalists stating that the current issue with engagement is rooted in a culture where increasingly if something ain't going to make you a 'celebrity' quickly it's not deemed to be worth the effort. That misconception is exacerbated by the domination of commercial music to the detriment of social music spaces. And teaching programmes for subjects such as music that don't lead directly to big salary careers on graduation are being decimated - root cause tuition fees and the reality of student debt.



To a practiced social musician academic theory just explains and puts into b/w what they already know by ear and instinct. What difference in a social music context if you refer to 'low bass' or 'high bass' or G major or A major? Neither do you need to know which squiggle is a half-beat rest and which a whole bar rest to know how they fit within a tune, or the formal name of a mordant or caesura unless you have your aim set on an orchestra seat. But for many aspiring musicians who don't have access to a ready playing space to train their ear theory does offer that knowledge by an alternative route and in a structured form.

Like most approaches it's not a one size fits all; playing music isn't science it's creative.  A theory-based approach will work for some and not others. And I speak from personal experience as someone who was put-off by a joyless, abstract, heavily theory-based approach at school. I know my theory now, but that came hand-in-glove with actually playing, having fun and understanding from the inside, not in abstract as was the case at my school. For me that post-school alternative practical approach made understanding theory easy and relevant - because it was just a gradual recognition of the formalities of what I was already playing.

Edited by - mbuk06 on 08/20/2018 15:49:28

Bill Rogers - Posted - 08/20/2018:  16:57:43

On thinking about it, many, if not most, of the songs I remember from music classes when I was a kid (1950s) would not be remotely politically correct today. Some aggrieved parent or parents would find reason to complain. May not be seen as worth the effort by the schools.

Shmockiebaby - Posted - 08/20/2018:  20:45:38

My big frustration is that nobody knows the “Nashville number system” anymore. So you can’t tell somebody something simple like “this is a basic 1-4-5 progression, but there’s a passing 2 chord in the B part....”. They just don’t know what you’re talking about. I have played and led lots of jams in the full band setting, and it’s not unusual to have somebody wave to you from across the stage, and hold up two fingers to let you know that you need to go to a 2 chord.

And some basic theory is incredibly helpful. Just trying to transcribe a simple tune, it helps to know where the minor chords are in each key. You don’t need to read music, but it sure helps to be able to look at a keyboard player, a guitar player, or any other musician and know what to do next.

I have always said to my wife that a jam with other people is like having a conversation. Some people just aren’t as conversant in the language as others. I’ve even seen incredibly talented self taught musicians who are not able to play with others because they don’t have any basic theory to help with communication.

Craig_B - Posted - 08/21/2018:  04:39:38

quote:

---

Originally posted by Shmockiebaby

I have played and led lots of jams in the full band setting, and it’s not unusual to have somebody wave to you from across the stage, and hold up two fingers to let you know that you need to go to a 2 chord.

---

Several years ago I had the great pleasure to attend a Muriel Anderson Guitar Night at a Nashville club, and part of it was a tribute to James Burton, which included a subset called the 'Caster Blaster group with Burton, Seymour Duncan and Vince Gill. All through it, Gill was constantly putting his hand in the air with different combinations of fingers to direct the band in the chord progressions. An interesting practice, but one I doubt was really necessary in that crowd.

Joel Hooks - Posted - 08/21/2018:  06:26:15

One of the tactics that is often used on the BHO during this type of discussion is to confuse the study of music theory with literacy.

One might need to be literate to study theory, but the study of advanced theory is not necessary to be able to read music.

Same as counting to 100 and basic math is not advanced calculus.

Reading music is a basic skill that adds to the tool box. Imagine where we would be if our great literary authors were illiterate? What would our world look like if importance of literacy was ignored and not taught in schools? How about libraries only filled with recordings of people talking and not finished and edited works on history, science, art, etc.?

Would we have the ability to manufacture the equipment to record without written language?

"Ear playing" is absolutely a necessary skill, but is limited only to what music you can hear.

How many illiterates have a strong verbal vocabulary?

Why would anyone discourage learning to read and write?

carlb - Posted - 08/21/2018:  07:02:15

Here are some of the points that I've noted in the last 30-40 years, both from my own musical history and interactions when playing with others.

1. Playing by notation or by ear is an experience that doesn't necessarily cross over, as has been noted in other's comments. I learned by play by ear and notation, within a year between piano (only notation) and recorder (both ear and notation) when I was 5 and 6 years of age. Many years later, when I played guitar by ear and clarinet by notation, I was asked by my jug band members to play some clarinet in the band. It was a bit like pulling teeth in that I felt very uncomfortable playing the clarinet by ear. However, since I knew that I played other instruments by ear (guitar and recorder), I just had to find my way and to some extent I have.

2. Playing a musical instrument is a physical activity. As I play quite a few different instruments, which have different physical skills, I do notice that some come more easily for me then others. Not enough of this has been ever done in the musical education of children; frustration sets in when they have physical difficulties in trying to play (for me it was, and still is, piano; I'm a stumbler even though one can recognize what I'm playing). I think many children stop playing music because of they were not led to instruments in which they had a greater physical skill. Clawhammer banjo open my eyes to the fact that I had much more dexterity than on other instruments I play.

3. When recognizing chords from a melody line, I've noted that it is a separate skill from the ability to play the instrument. In particular, I know adequate guitar players who have great skill at doing this and terrific guitar players who don't seem to have it, but who when leading a group are just exceptional players.

4. My parents also steered me to science over music. While my career was in science, I never gave up my music and maybe it held back advancement in my career. Luckily, for me, my love of music held on and in retirement is a huge part of my life.

5. When one plays in a group, whether it's a band or a jam, how much do you listen to the others and try to blend in? I'm not sure whether this is just a musical skill or comes from one's personality (life skill). For me, the most exciting musical sessions I've had is when what I usually play fits perfectly with the others (especially fiddle-banjo duets). There are only a handful of people I've played with, over the years, in which this has happened. It's thrilling every time. Some of it is that we both have the same sense of the tune, even though we're not necessarily playing the same notes.

FlyinEagle - Posted - 08/21/2018:  07:29:46

Over the last 10 or 15 years I have hopped on my soapbox over this issue more times than I can count. To friends, coworkers, acquaintances, at parties, at dinners, here on the hangout…you name it. Everyone is sick of hearing it from me.

I’ve come to realize it is on us now. You and me, and anyone else with young children or grandchildren. The industry isn’t going to change, it’s going to keep getting worse because it is trapped in a feedback loop where as music is dumbed down so is its listeners.

As musicians - whether professional, amateur, hobbyist - we’re in a unique position to pass on the gift of music to the younger generation. It’s even more important for the music that is made with a banjo, whether classical, old time, bluegrass, tenor/plectrum styles…we are stewards of the not just the music but the instrument too. That’s a lot of pressure but the future of our music pretty much depends on it.

Don’t worry about whether you can read standard notation or not. Whatever you do know…Pass it down.

I didn’t grow up around the banjo or this music, but it’s mine now. And when I watch my 22 month old daughter dance around the living room to John Hartford or Flatt and Scruggs, I know it’s her music now too. It’s up to us.

Paulie Ray - Posted - 08/21/2018:  07:57:02

So great to see the energy you all have around this topic. My intention was not so much to stir debate as it was to shine light on the different approaches and methods people employ with their music. I love the idea that we need to carry the torch in whatever way we can to make sure people always play and enjoy music. I truly believe music feeds the soul and playing music does so doubly!

Tractor1 - Posted - 08/21/2018:  09:37:30

I really don't care about jazz
Classical is too hard to put up with it's '' boring parts'' for listening much.
Some music degree holders still manage to make bad music.
That being said,I self taught my literacy enough to get by.I realize that reading is a great way and a lot of times the best way to describe how to play a piece. Also it is great when someone with helpful knowledge shares their wisdom through scores.
As far as scientific evaluation of the current value of music, a high percentage of music's magic is not even explained by science .I hope my taxes did not help pay for that survey.

Richard Hauser - Posted - 08/21/2018:  11:37:12

Some schools have discontinued more than music programs. My grandkids went to a school that discontinued drivers education. I am surprised that some parents haven't sued the school(s) to have sports discontinued and and drivers education reststarted More kids will be driving than playing college or professional sports.

When I retired and left Michigan, one high school stopped supporting interscholastic sports. Booster groups had to assume financial support.

My grandson and granddaughter each had to pay $800 for a private drivers education lesson before they could take a drivers test. I wonder how financially disadvantaged kids afford to get a drivers license.

Edwards - Posted - 08/27/2018:  08:32:04

I remember years ago when we would get incoming students to the University, and the young students that had music education or more diverse in there exclamation of learning materials then those who did not have that exposure. It’s a mistake taking away the arts, whether it’s music, it’s culture, it’s Penny with w University, and the young students that had music education were more diverse in there exclamation of learning materials and those who did not have that exposure. It’s a mistake taking away the arts, whether it’s music, it’s culture, or painting with watercolor. I’ve watched over the years has the educational system as streamlined 12 K experiences for adolescence, do you mean only math, reading, and athletics as necessities. The truth is it’s become more of a fight for dollars, then a fight for educating children. Music education Was one of the many aspects in education which would draw and struggling students and get them to invest in the rest of their education.