Please note this is an archived topic, so it is locked and unable to be replied to. You may, however, start a new topic and refer to this topic with a link: http://www.banjohangout.org/archive/345243
hosiers - Posted - 08/06/2018: 17:47:06
While it is possible to play any song in any key on a banjo, fiddlers normally dictate the key a song is played in. When a fiddler says Key of A, is their instrument tuned to AEAE? I would normally capo up a G tuned banjo 2 frets. How about key of D? How is the fiddle tuned? I would capo up 2 with my banjo tuned to double C. How do the string tunings on a fiddle correspond to banjo tunings?
Thanks,
Steve
deestexas - Posted - 08/06/2018: 18:09:12
A and D are very common keys for fiddles tuned the traditional way ( GDAE).
llrevis - Posted - 08/06/2018: 20:16:35
That’s not necessarily so. Some fiddlers Cross tune and play A tunes in AEAE and D tunes in ADAE. The banjo would be tuned gDGBD capo 2 for the A tunes and gCGCD capo 2 for the D tunes.
mdthib - Posted - 08/06/2018: 21:07:17
For the most part, as long as you're in the same key, you don't need to worry too much who is in which tuning—if you're both playing in the key of A, it should sound good. Advanced players will sometimes pay attention to particular tunings related between instruments—for instance so you can anticipate which tunes might go up or down an octave, or if a particular melody sits fine within a tuning, but on the whole it's enough to worry about your own instrument in the tuning of your choice for a given key.
250gibson - Posted - 08/07/2018: 09:10:23
The reason fiddlers can usually dictate a tune be played in a particular key is because they can't capo. In other words if they play a tune in A, they can't without a lot of thinking and refiguring fingering, use of double stops, etc., play the tune in another key. If the banjo player usually plays the tune in G, the banjo player can capo and use their same fingering for the tune in the key of A by placing a capo on the 2nd fret. It is a lot easier in a jam situation to capo vs. refiguring fingering. If it is in a band situation and you as a band decide to play a particular tune in a key that the fiddle player is not accostomed to playing it in, then the fiddler should be able to rework the tune in rehearsals to the new key so when it comes time to record, or play a gig, there are no problems.
Most fiddle tunes are played in standard violin tuning in the keys of A and D as they are the easiest keys to fiddle in, therefore they are mostly written in those keys.
monstertone - Posted - 09/01/2018: 12:07:59
There are many posibilities for play 5 string banjo in the key of D.
Perhaps the eaisiest is to capo 2 & play out of C positions usinig either open G, (gDGBD) tuning or drop C (gCGBD) Capo the 5th string as well.
There are two D tunings (aDF#AD) & (aDF#AD)
Play out of open G tuning, leaving the 5th string @ g, or capo it up to a
In the old days you used to see people capo up to the 7th fret to play in the key of D. You don'r see that much anymore as people have learned other menthods.
Mooooo - Posted - 09/01/2018: 12:42:20
quote:
Originally posted by monstertone
There are many posibilities for play 5 string banjo in the key of D.
Perhaps the eaisiest is to capo 2 & play out of C positions usinig either open G, (gDGBD) tuning or drop C (gCGBD) Capo the 5th string as well.
There are two D tunings (aDF#AD) & (aDF#AD)
Play out of open G tuning, leaving the 5th string @ g, or capo it up to a
In the old days you used to see people capo up to the 7th fret to play in the key of D. You don'r see that much anymore as people have learned other menthods.
Only experts can hear a difference in these two D tunings, but after many years of playing you will notice that they are as different as apples and other apples. 
mmuussiiccaall - Posted - 09/01/2018: 14:50:17
Mike I don't see or hear any difference either!
Edited by - mmuussiiccaall on 09/01/2018 14:52:45
Mooooo - Posted - 09/01/2018: 15:01:52
quote:
Originally posted by mmuussiiccaall
Mike I don't see or hear any difference either!
check again in 10 more years. 
monstertone - Posted - 09/01/2018: 15:18:13
quote:
Originally posted by mmuussiiccaall
Mike I don't see or hear any difference either!
F# puts the drone (5th) on the third note of the D scale where as A puts the drone on the 5th.
Try playing Ruebin with the drone on the 5th. It won't sound as Lonsome.
mmuussiiccaall - Posted - 09/01/2018: 15:24:17
Hmm, Mike does he see it?
Mooooo - Posted - 09/01/2018: 16:41:27
quote:
Originally posted by monstertone
quote:
Originally posted by mmuussiiccaall
Mike I don't see or hear any difference either!
F# puts the drone (5th) on the third note of the D scale where as A puts the drone on the 5th.
Try playing Ruebin with the drone on the 5th. It won't sound as Lonsome.
We were having fun with your typo. Reread your first post and you will see why.
monstertone - Posted - 09/01/2018: 17:44:29
Aw well, hopefully, you get the point.
monstertone - Posted - 09/01/2018: 18:13:00
f#DF#AD How did I miss that?
BobTheGambler - Posted - 09/02/2018: 08:09:27
A and D might be in vogue in a lot of old time jamming, but the folks I play with tend more towards fiddle tunes in G and C, often venturing into F and even Bb. Tons of old string band 78s are in keys outside of D and A. There's really nothing easier about fiddling in A than any of those other keys, especially in standard tuning.
Mooooo - Posted - 09/02/2018: 08:56:06
quote:
Originally posted by monstertone
f#DF#AD How did I miss that?
That is your textbook "aha moment"
steve davis - Posted - 09/20/2018: 06:00:57
Tunings don't need to be altered for a given key.
A G tuned banjo can play all keys with no capo.
A fiddle can play all keys as tuned.
Rawhide Creek - Posted - 09/20/2018: 09:42:45
If you’re interested in a tour de force of violin tunings, check out the “Rosary Sonatas” (aka “Mystery Sonatas”) of Heinrich Biber, composed in the latter 1600s. I have a recording of Andrew Manze playing them. You’ll notice that, in one instance, the inner two strings are actually “crossed”.
Rawhide Creek - Posted - 09/20/2018: 19:31:08
Historically, bowed string players prefer, and are most comfortable with, keys that correspond generally to their open strings. For violins (and basses), these would be G, D, A, and E. For violas and cellos: C, G, D, and A. To allow for range, the two inner open strings are better choices: D and A (violin) or G and D (viola/cello).
These happen also to be, for obvious reasons, the keys in which the instruments sound best.
Edited by - Rawhide Creek on 09/20/2018 19:32:14
G Edward Porgie - Posted - 09/21/2018: 09:27:14
quote:
Originally posted by BobTheGambler
A and D might be in vogue in a lot of old time jamming, but the folks I play with tend more towards fiddle tunes in G and C, often venturing into F and even Bb. Tons of old string band 78s are in keys outside of D and A. There's really nothing easier about fiddling in A than any of those other keys, especially in standard tuning.
The key of old 78's, particularly field recording, were highly dependent on the speed at which the recording equipment was running. Many recordings were fast or slow, which when played back at a normal speed would be perceived as a different key. Also, many of the old records specified a speed of 80 rpm, which would again cause these recording to sound at a different pitch on more modern equipment.
Another problem with string bands is that these groups sometimes didn't tune to a set pitch such as A=440, but simply tuned to one another. If they happened to agree on what might sound to others as Ab rather than A, that would surely throw a monkey wrench into the "key" works.
Edited by - G Edward Porgie on 09/21/2018 09:32:26
BobTheGambler - Posted - 09/21/2018: 09:32:53
quote:
Originally posted by G Edward Porgie
quote:
Originally posted by BobTheGambler
A and D might be in vogue in a lot of old time jamming, but the folks I play with tend more towards fiddle tunes in G and C, often venturing into F and even Bb. Tons of old string band 78s are in keys outside of D and A. There's really nothing easier about fiddling in A than any of those other keys, especially in standard tuning.
The key of old 78's, particularly field recording, were highly dependent on the speed at which the recording equipment was running. Many recordings were fast or slow, which when played back at a normal speed would be perceived as a different key. Also, many of the old records specified a speed of 80 rpm, which would again cause these recording to sound at a different pitch on more modern equipment.
Are you actually trying to suggest that fiddlers on old recordings didn't play in C, G, F, or B-flat? They most certainly did, and it wasn't a product of problems with recording speed. There are distinct traits to different keys on fiddle and the more you listen and play, the more you can hear them. There's no way in hell the Skillet Lickers played Rocky Pallet in D. Burnett and Rutherford weren't playing "Ladies On The Steamboat" in A. I'd say on old recordings that tunes in C and G were more or equally common to tunes in D and A.
G Edward Porgie - Posted - 09/21/2018: 15:03:38
quote:
Originally posted by BobTheGambler
quote:
Originally posted by G Edward Porgie
quote:
Originally posted by BobTheGambler
A and D might be in vogue in a lot of old time jamming, but the folks I play with tend more towards fiddle tunes in G and C, often venturing into F and even Bb. Tons of old string band 78s are in keys outside of D and A. There's really nothing easier about fiddling in A than any of those other keys, especially in standard tuning.
The key of old 78's, particularly field recording, were highly dependent on the speed at which the recording equipment was running. Many recordings were fast or slow, which when played back at a normal speed would be perceived as a different key. Also, many of the old records specified a speed of 80 rpm, which would again cause these recording to sound at a different pitch on more modern equipment.
Are you actually trying to suggest that fiddlers on old recordings didn't play in C, G, F, or B-flat? They most certainly did, and it wasn't a product of problems with recording speed. There are distinct traits to different keys on fiddle and the more you listen and play, the more you can hear them. There's no way in hell the Skillet Lickers played Rocky Pallet in D. Burnett and Rutherford weren't playing "Ladies On The Steamboat" in A. I'd say on old recordings that tunes in C and G were more or equally common to tunes in D and A.
Sorry to offend you, but when I've played some of these old records, the key being played is not always what one might think from listening. I'm sure there were many fiddlers who played in C or G, but there are cases where the music has been distorted to another key. The great blues singer, Robert Johnson is one whose recordings don't always match some of the things a guitar is capable of, and most believe that he didn't have as high of a voice as can be heard on the records.
I must ask, what keys are those cited tunes actually played in? Saying that "Rocky Pallet" was not played in D doesn't really say much.
BobTheGambler - Posted - 09/21/2018: 15:12:21
I'm not offended, I just don't think you have any idea what you're talking about. Are you really trying to argue that people didn't play tunes in C and G? You really think I'm wrong about that?
Recorded pitch is not how you determine playing position. An old recording could be sounding in Db, but you listen to the clues from the fiddle and determine whether its in C position or D position. I don't get the sense that you actually listen to much of this music or would be able to pick out the playing position of a fiddle recording, yet you are trying to make the utterly ridiculous statement that all old time music was played in A or D.
Go over to Slippery Hill and look at the hundreds of old time fiddle recordings in G, C, B-flat, F, etc.
G Edward Porgie - Posted - 09/21/2018: 19:59:33
quote:
Originally posted by BobTheGambler
I'm not offended, I just don't think you have any idea what you're talking about. Are you really trying to argue that people didn't play tunes in C and G? You really think I'm wrong about that?
Recorded pitch is not how you determine playing position. An old recording could be sounding in Db, but you listen to the clues from the fiddle and determine whether its in C position or D position. I don't get the sense that you actually listen to much of this music or would be able to pick out the playing position of a fiddle recording, yet you are trying to make the utterly ridiculous statement that all old time music was played in A or D.
Go over to Slippery Hill and look at the hundreds of old time fiddle recordings in G, C, B-flat, F, etc.
Please re-read my last statement, particularly the sentence "I'm sure there were many fiddlers who played in C or G..."
I have never once stated that all olt time music was played in A or D. Someone else may have said that, but it wasn't me, and I'd be one of the first to disagree. I have merely stated that old recordings are not always accurate. If you feel you can tell just what fingerings and bowings are being used on a scratchy and worn old field recording, played back at 78rpm instead of the intended 80 rpm, more power to you. You must have excellent and very selective hearing.
And when saying I should go somewhere to check the recordings, at least you could be polite and say "Please." I did when asking that you re-read what I said earlier.
