SimonSlick - Posted - 03/26/2018:  05:38:20

I wrote this tune as an experiment after reading an interview with Dickie Betts, The chord progression is Am/F/C/G that repeats throughout. Someone asked me what key it is in. I had never thought about it being in a particular key.

If forced to give it one I would answer "C" What do the theorists say?

Annie McIntyre

 

Zachary Hoyt - Posted - 03/26/2018:  06:17:18

It sounds good to me. I would say it is maybe in Am, since the times when you're playing Am are when it 'feels' resolved to me, but I don't know for sure. I don't know much about music theory.
Zach

rickhayes - Posted - 03/26/2018:  06:17:35

Am?

G Edward Porgie - Posted - 03/26/2018:  06:32:20

This is a modal progression, having no real key.

Doctor JerBear - Posted - 03/26/2018:  06:43:07

Either Am or G mixolydian...

As far as the notes go, C, Am, and G mixolydian are all the same scale, but like Zach said, the difference is when the song feels resolved. The usual rule of thumb is the last chord in the song is a good bet.

If you stop the song at the end of a progression like in the Mp3, it would suggest G mix, but if you have the urge to let one last Am ring at the end, it would be Am.

jer

G Edward Porgie - Posted - 03/26/2018:  07:56:48

I don't "feel" any resolution; the tune simply drifts. Jeremy's thoughts of Mixolydian work somewhat, but still, there is no resolution, no cadence in the traditional harmonic sense, no chord really stands out as the "tonic," and even the final G seems to want to go elsewhere.

The "key" of A minor doesn't work for me, either. Aeolian mode would be closer since again there is no dominant (in this case, an E chord) usually associated with an actual "key."

Mooooo - Posted - 03/26/2018:  10:12:35

I'm not a theorist but I play one on the BHO...I am sure you will get a different opinion from everyone on this Simon. But I think that you as the composer will have final say. Here's how I see it. The melody revolves around the A note and you are using the A minor scale which is the same group as the C scale...but as I said the tonal center is A. Of course, it probably isn't that easy.

Rawhide Creek - Posted - 03/26/2018:  12:05:28

The apt term is “ambiguous key center”.

Laurence Diehl - Posted - 03/26/2018:  12:54:22

Please don't call me a theorist, I don't want to get lumped in with those "other guys"  But I see most of us here avoided the trap of twisting ourselves in knots trying to pin down a key. As George says, there is no cadence and it doesn't really resolve anywhere so there is no functional reason to opt for one key over another.

Nice playing btw! The tune reminds me of a wandering soul, searching, searching...but never finding.

chuckv97 - Posted - 03/26/2018:  14:07:04

Mooooo would likely call it “specifically ambiguous”......

mmuussiiccaall - Posted - 03/26/2018:  15:35:38

Are these ambiguous?
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_...ogression

chuckv97 - Posted - 03/26/2018:  15:47:01

“Four Strong Winds” ends on a V chord...is that am-big-you-us?

rcc56 - Posted - 03/26/2018:  16:03:52

While the tonal center may seem ambiguous if you focus on the chords, the melodic phrases that move down the scale step-wise clearly point to A as their destination. This is what is sometimes referred to as "melodic tonality."

The key is A natural minor.  If we define "dominant function" as the tendency to prepare the tonic, the G major chord performs that function, even though it is not built on the fifth degree of the scale.

A well known tune, this time in the mixolydian mode, that has a sub-tonic chord [one full step beneath the tonic] that performs the dominant function, is "June Apple".

I do not recall the author, but the book "Tonality, Atonality, and Pantonality" discusses the ideas of harmonic tonality and melodic tonality.  Because most of us were taught common practice theory first, we tend to want to look at chord progressions rather than melodies to define keys.  But the idea of defining the key by determining where the melody goes is actually a much older idea.

Although I only took a quick glance at the songs in the Wikipedia article that Rick referenced, I would not have any reason to call at least most of them ambiguous, at least not from my point of view.

Edited by - rcc56 on 03/26/2018 16:13:45

rcc56 - Posted - 03/26/2018:  17:10:16

Rudolph Reti is the author of "Tonality, Atonality, and Pantonality." The strange thing about the book was that although he gave good definitions of the terms "tonality," "polytonality," and "atonality," his definition of "pantonality" was quite vague and nebulous.

I doubt that there are many pantonal banjo players anyway.

 

SimonSlick - Posted - 03/26/2018:  17:13:26

Ok, well, I hit the like button on all of the comments even though I am clueless as to what some of them are talking about.
Thanks for taking the time to listen and give some input, everyone. I appreciate it.

rcc56 - Posted - 03/26/2018:  17:16:40

Well, another way to look at it is "what note or chord feels like home?"

HarleyQ - Posted - 03/26/2018:  19:37:04

...sur is purddy!!

Mooooo - Posted - 03/26/2018:  20:07:12

quote:

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Originally posted by SimonSlick

Ok, well, I hit the like button on all of the comments even though I am clueless as to what some of them are talking about.

Thanks for taking the time to listen and give some input, everyone. I appreciate it.

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If you are not sure what I was saying, it was a lot of words surrounding my answer - Am.

G Edward Porgie - Posted - 03/27/2018:  06:52:39

quote:

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Originally posted by rcc56

Well, another way to look at it is "what note or chord feels like home?"

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While I agree with your comments about melodic tonality, I still don't find anything in this tune that "feels like home." "Home" in this case, seems to be wherever a theorist "hangs his hat."

I should say at this time that I do like the tune.

rcc56 - Posted - 03/27/2018:  07:19:44

Everybody hears things differently. I was trying to keep things in simple terms for the OP/composer.

The phrases overlap. In classical music this is called "elision." The last note of one phrase is also the beginning note of the next phrase, so there is no pause where one phrase ends and the next starts.  But it is easy for me to hear that the melody keeps on working its way down the scale to an A on a downbeat.  [E-F-E-D-C-B-A---  this A is also the beginning of the new phrase, so the music keeps on going instead of sitting on the A].

But if you want to call it ambiguous, you can do that, and neither of us will get hurt, or be locked up by the music police.

Rawhide Creek - Posted - 03/27/2018:  10:05:07

quote:

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Originally posted by rcc56

Everybody hears things differently. I was trying to keep things in simple terms for the OP/composer.

The phrases overlap. In classical music this is called "elision." The last note of one phrase is also the beginning note of the next phrase, so there is no pause where one phrase ends and the next starts.  But it is easy for me to hear that the melody keeps on working its way down the scale to an A on a downbeat.  [E-F-E-D-C-B-A---  this A is also the beginning of the new phrase, so the music keeps on going instead of sitting on the A].

But if you want to call it ambiguous, you can do that, and neither of us will get hurt, or be locked up by the music police.

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Or, as Caplin writes, “Cadence creates musical closure, but not all closure in music is cadential.”  (See music.mcgill.ca/~caplin/caplin...dence.pdf.)

It was not George but I who painted in the term “ambiguous”.  I’ve also heard this kind of construction called “circular” (which I think meets your description) and “spiral” (which I don’t find a to be a useful term, at least in this instance).  But I could move my tent to the Am camp without suffering.

rcc56 - Posted - 03/27/2018:  15:21:24

The famous Bach D minor Chaconne also tends to run in a circular manner.

G Edward Porgie - Posted - 03/27/2018:  17:06:51

Banjo police? Those must be the ones responsible for all those bars we find in music scores.

Rawhide Creek - Posted - 03/27/2018:  18:35:25

Old musicians never die; they just go from bar to bar . . .

Rawhide Creek - Posted - 03/28/2018:  09:13:06

quote:

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Originally posted by mmuussiiccaall

Are these ambiguous?

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_...ogression

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No, but if we posit Am, the progression as cited is i - VI - III - VII and the lengthy chart is irrelevant.