csacwp - Posted - 04/17/2018:  12:27:45

quote:

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Originally posted by Andy FitzGibbon

quote:

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Originally posted by CliftonHicks

John: I don't mean to split hairs over what seems like a comment made in passing. However, this point must be addressed: 

Rather than assuming that Mr. Hicks lied, why not assume instead that his assertion was based on facts?

That Stanley Hicks (a primary informant and tradition-bearer of the highest order) attributed his banjo pattern to c. 1865 is another strong indicator that the Hicks-Proffitt-Glenn "mountain" banjo tradition developed with the rise of industry during and immediately following the American Civil War--decades prior to the not-so-scientific date of 1920 espoused by some. 

 

 

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I wonder about this, too. There seems to be a general belief, in some circles, that nothing a rural musician says about history can be trusted... while, at the same time, things that professional musicians wrote in magazines a hundred and twenty years ago, though they are not aways verifiable, are presented as "fact".

This is certainly not a new facet in the pervasive prejudice against, and stereotyping of, Appalachian people that exists in much of our country... but it hasn't become any more welcome, either.

Andy

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Andy, my skepticism has nothing to do with the demographics of these guys.  It's based on the fact that they provided no evidence to support their claims other than anecdotes (the weakest type of evidence), and to top it off they were selling a product that had appeal because of the folklore behind it.  



As for the pro banjoists who wrote reminisces (I presume that you are referring to Baur, Converse, etc.), they weren't advertising when they wrote their accounts, they gave detailed specifics, and most importantly those specifics are fairly easy to corroborate.  The dates, places, and events, and even some of the opinions presented in their accounts have been confirmed to be true using additional sources, some of them primary.    

Andy FitzGibbon - Posted - 04/17/2018:  12:29:45

Joel, I understand and agree with all that.

We both know that there were no magazines, schools, or college clubs devoted to rural Appalachian music in the 19th and early 20th century. Though it often served a similar function, it was transmitted in an entirely different format, one which did not lend itself, or automatically create, the level of documentation that is present for the popular music of the same era. That is unfortunate for those of us who are interested in how it all happened, but it also had a hand in shaping the genre into what it was, and is.

My concern is that rural accounts are being held to a standard that they clearly can never live up to, and then are being entirely discounted because they cannot live up to that standard. A lack of documentation is not proof that something didn't happen.

I don't really think that the mountain style banjos were around much before 1900, either. But I don't feel the need to assert that opinion as fact, just because it's supported by a lack of documentation by a society and genre that is known for its lack of documentation.

Andy

Bob Sayers - Posted - 04/17/2018:  13:37:29

Quote: "We both know that there were no magazines, schools, or college clubs devoted to rural Appalachian music in the 19th and early 20th century. "



I've been holding my tongue while reading this thread, but sometimes a comment puzzles me to the point where I need to comment. Beginning around 1900, nearly two-dozen "settlement schools" (en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Settlement_school) were established throughout Appalachia to address the economic and educational needs of impoverished local communities. A number of these schools promoted the preservation of Appalachian traditional culture, including crafts and music.

Indeed, many of the well-known names (the Ritchie and Hicks families, Jethro Amburgey, et.al.) attached to the revival of Appalachian music and musical instrument-making in the early-to-mid-20th century had some relation to these schools. (Just as an aside: In the early 1960s, I bought a dulcimer made by Jethro Amburgey, then teaching wood-working at the Hindman School.)



The Robert Winslow Gordon photographs look very much of a piece with the kinds of documentation of Appalachian music and culture being conducted at that time. I don't have copies of the books at hand, but it might be worth checking out Allen Eaton's Handicrafts of the Southern Highlands and Jean Ritchie's Singing Family of the Cumberlands for more photographs of Appalachian musicians in the first half of the last century.



I'll have more to say about this in a future posting. But right now I'll throw out the suggestion that the so-called "mountain banjo" design might have its origins with certain families in the region and might even have been influenced by the Settlement School movement. I also think that it's important to examine the history of the Appalachian dulcimer which has been much better researched (c.f., L. Allen Smith, A Catalogue of Pre-Revival Appalachian Dulcimers, 1983) than the "mountain banjo", but definitely shares an affinity with the latter.

Edited by - Bob Sayers on 04/17/2018 13:40:25

Andy FitzGibbon - Posted - 04/17/2018:  15:23:37

Bob, that is a very good point, and a glaring omission on my part. As there were no schools in West Virginia, I tend to forget about them. Thank you.

The magazine and college club comment still stands, as far as I know, along with the idea that perhaps folk culture perhaps needs to be viewed through a somewhat different lens vs. banjo popular culture.



Andy

Edited by - Andy FitzGibbon on 04/17/2018 15:32:46

Carolina Banjo Company - Posted - 04/17/2018:  15:36:51

Thanks for the info Bob, I just ordered the dulcimer book, sounds interesting.

csacwp - Posted - 04/17/2018:  15:50:21

I've come across references to various BMG clubs in Appalachia. It seems that a fair number of towns had them.

Andy FitzGibbon - Posted - 04/17/2018:  16:15:36

quote:

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Originally posted by csacwp

I've come across references to various BMG clubs in Appalachia. It seems that a fair number of towns had them.

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That doesn't surprise me. Towns that were situated on navigable rivers, major roads, or had railroad access often had many "modern" attributes that aren't often associated with the preconcieved idea of Appalachia.  Some of the old time banjo picking styles have a lot of classic banjo influence.

Other portions of the Appalachian states- and, not surprisingly, those from which the music least influenced by popular music came- were, and still are, remote and difficult to get to, and to this day have no major towns or cities. Most of central West Virginia falls into that category, along with east Kentucky and parts of southwest Virginia and western North Carolina.

Most of the old banjo players around me played at least two styles- downstroke, for which they had many names, and some form of two or three finger picking.

Andy

IMBanjoJim - Posted - 04/17/2018:  16:56:57

quote:

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Originally posted by Bob Sayers

Quote: "We both know that there were no magazines, schools, or college clubs devoted to rural Appalachian music in the 19th and early 20th century. "



I've been holding my tongue while reading this thread, but sometimes a comment puzzles me to the point where I need to comment. Beginning around 1900, nearly two-dozen "settlement schools" (en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Settlement_school) were established throughout Appalachia to address the economic and educational needs of impoverished local communities. A number of these schools promoted the preservation of Appalachian traditional culture, including crafts and music.

Indeed, many of the well-known names (the Ritchie and Hicks families, Jethro Amburgey, et.al.) attached to the revival of Appalachian music and musical instrument-making in the early-to-mid-20th century had some relation to these schools. (Just as an aside: In the early 1960s, I bought a dulcimer made by Jethro Amburgey, then teaching wood-working at the Hindman School.)



The Robert Winslow Gordon photographs look very much of a piece with the kinds of documentation of Appalachian music and culture being conducted at that time. I don't have copies of the books at hand, but it might be worth checking out Allen Eaton's Handicrafts of the Southern Highlands and Jean Ritchie's Singing Family of the Cumberlands for more photographs of Appalachian musicians in the first half of the last century.



I'll have more to say about this in a future posting. But right now I'll throw out the suggestion that the so-called "mountain banjo" design might have its origins with certain families in the region and might even have been influenced by the Settlement School movement. I also think that it's important to examine the history of the Appalachian dulcimer which has been much better researched (c.f., L. Allen Smith, A Catalogue of Pre-Revival Appalachian Dulcimers, 1983) than the "mountain banjo", but definitely shares an affinity with the latter.

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Bob--my copy of Jean Ritchie's Singing Family Of The Cumberlands is a paperback, published by Oak Publications. It has no photographs. Perhaps there is a hardback version that does?

Also, in John Rice Irwin's Musical Instruments Of The Southern Appalachian Mountains, he states that what we are calling the mountain banjo was only found (by him) in and around The Great Smoky Mountains. Most seem to be from Wataga County, N.C.. The book contains many examples of various old banjos, everything from factory made, to cigar box, pie pan, wooden body, and gourd, but the specific mountain banjo design he only found in that one area. That would seem to indicate that whoever first came up with the concept lived in that area. The question is when?

Anyone know of any books relating specifically to the folk instruments of that neck of the woods?

Bob Sayers - Posted - 04/17/2018:  19:37:03

Hi Jim. I have to admit that I hadn't really thought deeply about the origins of these very distinctive "mountain banjos" before this fascinating thread appeared--even though I bought one from Clifford Glenn in 1981. I did know a little about the history of Appalachian dulcimers, though, because I purchased L. Allen Smith's wonderful "A Catalogue of Pre-Revival Appalachian Dulcimers" when it first came out in 1983. Smith (and others researchers) made an amazing discovery: namely, that the popular hourglass-shaped dulcimer (with heart-shaped holes) associated with Jean Ritchie and just about everybody else traces back mainly to one man--J. E. Thomas (ca. 1850-1933) of Bath, Kentucky. Rectangular, trapazoidal, and teardrop-shaped dulcimers predate Thomas' design, as Smith demonstrates through multiple illustrations. But it is Thomas who seems to have inspired--perhaps originated--the design that most players today assume to be "traditional." I mentioned Jethro Amburgey (or Amburgy) in my previous comments. For many years he made and sold dulcimers based exclusively on the Thomas design from a Settlement School in Hindman, Kentucky.



It occurred to me in writing my previous comments that many of the people (Proffitt, Hicks, Glenn) we associate with 1950s-60s period examples of "mountain banjos" came to widespread attention through the efforts of Jean Ritchie, Frank Warner, Ralph Rinzler, and others who were interested in Appalachian music and material culture.



Where the Settlement School movement might fit into this I don't know. (By the way, Ritchie left her Kentucky home for employment as a social worker in New York City in the 1940s.) But the design and construction methods are so novel and so clever, that it, like the Thomas dulcimer, may originate with one person, one family, one community of makers--perhaps encouraged by faculty at one of the Settlement Schools. This is pure speculation on my part. I'm still looking for a 19th-century photograph of someone holding a banjo based on the very distinctive "mountain banjo" design. But if I had to place a bet I'd say it came into being somewhere in the Appalachian region (maybe western North Carolina) in the first part of the 20th century.



As for books: I vaguely remember that the Ritchie book had illustrations of mountain musicians (dulcimer-players mostly) from the 1930s. Or maybe it was a book by Jean Thomas, the "Traipsin' Woman of Ashland, KY," who wrote about and photographed many elements of Appalachian culture in the 1930s. (I'm getting fuzzy here.) Anyway, there's much research to be done on this fascinating topic.

Edited by - Bob Sayers on 04/17/2018 19:49:14

IMBanjoJim - Posted - 04/17/2018:  20:05:32

Just looked up the website for the Watauga County Historical Society. I haven't explored it yet, but perhaps there will be some insights...

wataugacountyhistoricalsociety.org/

IMBanjoJim - Posted - 04/17/2018:  20:22:50

Following up--I just contacted them with a request for any information they might have, hopefully including old photos. And now we wait...

Bob Sayers - Posted - 04/17/2018:  20:47:45

The book that I was thinking of is Jean Thomas, Ballad Making in the Mountains of Kentucky. I believe that it includes photographs of Appalachian musicians taken in the 1930s.

Rawhide Creek - Posted - 04/17/2018:  20:51:21

quote:

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Originally posted by Andy FitzGibbon

Joel, I understand and agree with all that.



We both know that there were no magazines, schools, or college clubs devoted to rural Appalachian music in the 19th and early 20th century. Though it often served a similar function, it was transmitted in an entirely different format, one which did not lend itself, or automatically create, the level of documentation that is present for the popular music of the same era. That is unfortunate for those of us who are interested in how it all happened, but it also had a hand in shaping the genre into what it was, and is.



My concern is that rural accounts are being held to a standard that they clearly can never live up to, and then are being entirely discounted because they cannot live up to that standard. A lack of documentation is not proof that something didn't happen.



I don't really think that the mountain style banjos were around much before 1900, either. But I don't feel the need to assert that opinion as fact, just because it's supported by a lack of documentation by a society and genre that is known for its lack of documentation.



Andy

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Or, put in more conventional terms, “Absence of proof is not proof of absence.”

Andy FitzGibbon - Posted - 04/17/2018:  21:03:35

quote:

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Originally posted by Bob Sayers

The book that I was thinking of is Jean Thomas, Ballad Making in the Mountains of Kentucky. I believe that it includes photographs of Appalachian musicians taken in the 1930s.

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Bob, as I recall, you are correct.

Everything I have read about Jean Thomas paints her as a somewhat problematic figure, from a folklore standpoint.  She promoted folk music and musicians in a way that suited her own ideas of the tradition, often changing their names, and having them dress in nostalgic clothing.  The folk festivals she put on might be better described as "folk pageants"- though the performers were all genuine folk artists, their performances were scripted, and included presentation of Thomas' own theories as fact (seemingly not uncommon among folklorists of the era).

I have no idea if these practices extended to any labeling, ect. that she put on her photographs, but it's worth keeping in mind.

Andy

CliftonHicks - Posted - 04/19/2018:  16:33:43

quote:

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Originally posted by csacwp

quote:

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Originally posted by CliftonHicks

quote:

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Originally posted by csacwp

He would lie because he was selling them to folkies who wanted to hear about that kind of provenance.  It’s common practice in the folk art and antiques business.  

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John: I don't mean to split hairs over what seems like a comment made in passing. However, this point must be addressed: 

Rather than assuming that Mr. Hicks lied, why not assume instead that his assertion was based on facts?

 

 

 

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Because that is isn't how ethical scientific research is conducted.  If you assume something exists before researching it, you introduce bias and are likely to erroneously find what you are looking for.     

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I would argue (and many scientists would agree) that folklore, history and anthropology are not sciences.

I would also argue that entering the home of an informant, interviewing him, building one's career interpreting his art etc. and then discrediting him as a "liar" after he's dead is not ethical.

IMBanjoJim - Posted - 04/19/2018:  17:08:14

quote:

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Originally posted by IMBanjoJim

Following up--I just contacted them with a request for any information they might have, hopefully including old photos. And now we wait...

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And here is their reply. The second link has a lengthy article which includes genealogical information on the Hicks family, but nothing direcly related to mountain banjos:

Thanks for contacting us. You can see an image of Frank Profitt, Jr., at this image in our Digital Watauga Project: http://digitalwatauga.org/items/show/5900. You might also check out issue 19 of the Watauga County Times Past, which you can download here: http://digitalwatauga.org/items/show/5865. The Frank Proffitt, Jr., image was used in that issue (December 1985).

 

You might also want to touch base with Mark Freed at the Jones House Cultural and Community Center here in Boone. He runs the Junior Appalachian Musicians lesson program for the community and also teaches Appalachian Music at ASU. I have copied him on this email. 



Best, 



Eric Plaag, Chairperson

Digital Watauga Project

Watauga County Historical Society

CliftonHicks - Posted - 04/20/2018:  11:28:24

Our friend George R. Gibson has an interesting view on this subject. The following is shared here from personal correspondence:

"The earliest mountain banjos did not have a 'can' rim to support the head - the head was tacked on just as it is on gourd banjos. I have proved that gourd banjos were in the Carolinas by the 1780s; they were likely widespread on the frontier by that time. The first person who made a mountain banjo did not have to be acquainted with any instrument other than a gourd banjo. He made the mountain banjo round like a gourd and tacked on a head.

"It is my opinion that the mountain banjo was first made before the Civil War by mixed race people in upper east Tennessee, southwest Virginia and a part of western North Carolina. After the manufactured banjo became more common in the late 1800s, southern artisans began bending wood to make rims in emulation of these banjos - southern chair makers had been bending wood since colonial times. It is actually easier (when using primitive tools) to make a tack head banjo by bending wood for a rim than it is to make the mountain banjo with a tack head. There is only one reason why one would put in the extra work necessary to make a tack head mountain banjo: to make a durable copy of the gourd banjo.

"I have collected folk instruments for years, many of my folk banjos and dulcimers can be seen at the Artisan Center in Hindman, Kentucky. I have not seen a mountain banjo in southeast Kentucky, the folk banjos found there are of two types: bentwood rim banjos, most with hardware from the late 1800s to the 1920s (I have a collection of catalogs from that era) and hexagonal and octagonal instruments (a few are square) with tacked on heads. The hexagonal and octagonal banjos likely predate the bentwood rim banjos and are not copies of commercial instruments. The Hindman Settlement School has a photo of Ada Smith playing a hexagonal banjo in 1907. Stuart Jamieson recorded Aunt Liz Hill playing an octagonal banjo in 1946, and had a copy made from memory. 

"John Rice Erwin (Musical Instruments of the Southern Appalachian Mountains) found most of his folk instruments, including mountain banjos and some of the type found in southeast Kentucky, in upper east Tennessee and southwest Virginia. This is where many mixed race people lived, some of whom later emigrated to southeast Kentucky. It should be noted that these mixed race people were culturally the same as their neighbors, most said they were white but some claimed Portuguese or Indian ancestry. They originated around the Chesapeake in Virginia and Maryland."

- George R. Gibson (personal communication, 20 April 2018)

Edited by - CliftonHicks on 04/20/2018 11:28:49

Joel Hooks - Posted - 04/20/2018:  12:05:58

I am starting to feel like a broken record.

Tackhead banjos (no matter what shape the rim is) were never in question.

A "mountain banjo," is defined as having the construction associated with the Glenn/ Hicks / Proffitt families, specifically the clamping system. It is that mountain banjo that the origins are in question.

In my thinking, a tackhead banjo made in "the mountains" is still a tackhead banjo. No matter if it is square or hexagon.

It is very possible that when the Hicks said that they had been making banjos since the American Civil War, they were actually making tackhead banjos. That would be perfectly plausible and something that I would not question.

CliftonHicks - Posted - 04/20/2018:  18:43:23

Kentucky Mountain Banjo with a pretty confident pre-1920 provenience: youtu.be/YfC7NRs99K0

This instrument was clearly signed by the maker: "March 13, 1920" and, according to the family, it was actually made a few years prior to that...

hbick2 - Posted - 04/21/2018:  07:21:55

For those who are interested, the Jean Thomas photographic collection is housed at the University of Louisville Photographic Archives and is available online:

digital.library.louisville.edu...on/jthom/

The UL Photo Archives used to be the third largest in the country, after the Library of Congress and Eastman Kodak. I'm not sure where they rank now. There are lots of photos of Clayton McMichen and the Georgia Wildcats. Perhaps the most remarkable, however, are the portraits taken of the fiddlers who participated in the Henry Ford regional fiddle contests of the early 1920s. They are actual portraits taken by the leading photographic group in Louisville at the time. Gus Meade and I talked about putting together a small book of them but, as you know, Gus died unexpectedly. I'm not sure how many are available online. Here are a few:

digital.library.louisville.edu...732/rec/4

digital.library.louisville.edu...726/rec/3

Harry 

IMBanjoJim - Posted - 04/21/2018:  16:40:08

Thanks for sharing that, Harry! Very cool!

Joel Hooks - Posted - 04/24/2018:  10:18:33

quote:

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Originally posted by CliftonHicks

Kentucky Mountain Banjo with a pretty confident pre-1920 provenience: youtu.be/YfC7NRs99K0

This instrument was clearly signed by the maker: "March 13, 1920" and, according to the family, it was actually made a few years prior to that...

 

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Hi Clifton,

Did you see the other posting where a well documented photo was posted dating a mountain banjo to +/- 1914?  We have rolled back the timeline.

banjohangout.org/topic/341953/#4324530

IMBanjoJim - Posted - 04/24/2018:  11:24:40

quote:

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Originally posted by IMBanjoJim

quote:

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Originally posted by IMBanjoJim

Following up--I just contacted them with a request for any information they might have, hopefully including old photos. And now we wait...

---

And here is their reply. The second link has a lengthy article which includes genealogical information on the Hicks family, but nothing direcly related to mountain banjos:

Thanks for contacting us. You can see an image of Frank Profitt, Jr., at this image in our Digital Watauga Project: http://digitalwatauga.org/items/show/5900. You might also check out issue 19 of the Watauga County Times Past, which you can download here: http://digitalwatauga.org/items/show/5865. The Frank Proffitt, Jr., image was used in that issue (December 1985).

 

You might also want to touch base with Mark Freed at the Jones House Cultural and Community Center here in Boone. He runs the Junior Appalachian Musicians lesson program for the community and also teaches Appalachian Music at ASU. I have copied him on this email. 



Best, 



Eric Plaag, Chairperson

Digital Watauga Project

Watauga County Historical Society

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Mark Freed replied, and said I could post all of his answer:

The mountain-style banjo definitely has a murky history and is hard to put together.  The two areas where this style of banjo was most prevalent were in northwest North Carolina and some eastern Kentucky pockets.   Incidentally, these were also two stronghold pockets for the mountain dulcimer... and also two places where musicians tended to play solo or in duets as opposed to larger string band ensembles, after they became more popular after the turn of the century.

The three people I would try to connect with are:

1. Rick Ward (828.963.0523)  Rick is from Watauga.  His dad (NT Ward) and grandfather (Tab Ward) made mountain style banjos, and so does Rick.  He has done some digging into both early banjo and dulcimer patterns.

2. George Gibson (maybe ask folks on Banjo Hangout or Banjo-L for his contact... I used to have it, but not anymore).  I assume you have read some of George's work.  He would be a good one to ask about this style of banjo in eastern KY.

3. Bob Carlin - jwsweeney@aol.com - who might know the best resources of pre-1900 photographs of banjos.   Or Bob Winans or one of those banjo collector group people.  Do you know those folks?

One other Watauga County banjo builder - who learned to build from Stanley Hicks at first - is Charlie Glenn.  He might be worth talking with about it.  His number is 828.297.3432

Clifton Hicks - Posted - 05/01/2018:  19:33:12

quote:

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Originally posted by Joel Hooks

A "mountain banjo," is defined as having the construction associated with the Glenn/ Hicks / Proffitt families, specifically the clamping system. It is that mountain banjo that the origins are in question.



In my thinking, a tackhead banjo made in "the mountains" is still a tackhead banjo. No matter if it is square or hexagon.

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On the contrary: a "mountain banjo" is identified by the following characteristics:

1: Pot constructed of milled boards.

2: Small head in relation to the pot.

3. Appalachian provenance.

That internal tension system used mostly around east TN and western NC is the predominant variant within the "mountain banjo" taxon, but not the only variant--and probably not the oldest.

This is also a "mountain banjo" even though the head is tacked on top of the pot rather than mounted internally. 100% mountain banjo:

Clifton Hicks - Posted - 05/02/2018:  03:23:58

In other news, master musician and instrument maker Rick Ward of Watauga County, NC was kind enough to call me back the other day in response to questions about his grandfather Tab Ward's banjo building. In summary: Tab Ward was born c. 1903 and is known to have began playing banjo (probably via cultural education programs held at the local Rominger School) by 1915 or 1916. Rick suspects that he learned to build the distinctive Hicks style mountain banjo right around that same time, probably at Rominger and possibly from Roby Monroe Hicks who was already building them.

So, how many years did our Mountain Banjo Experts insist that these instruments originated no earlier than the 1920s without ever consulting the well-known Ward family? It certainly doesn't seem like these "researchers" dug very deep at all, or interviewed very many Appalachians (if any), before imposing their arbitrary date of origin.

Sincerely,

CF Hicks

Joel Hooks - Posted - 05/02/2018:  06:12:17

quote:

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Originally posted by Clifton Hicks

quote:

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Originally posted by Joel Hooks

A "mountain banjo," is defined as having the construction associated with the Glenn/ Hicks / Proffitt families, specifically the clamping system. It is that mountain banjo that the origins are in question.



In my thinking, a tackhead banjo made in "the mountains" is still a tackhead banjo. No matter if it is square or hexagon.

---

On the contrary: a "mountain banjo" is identified by the following characteristics:

1: Pot constructed of milled boards.

2: Small head in relation to the pot.

3. Appalachian provenance.

That internal tension system used mostly around east TN and western NC is the predominant variant within the "mountain banjo" taxon, but not the only variant--and probably not the oldest.

This is also a "mountain banjo" even though the head is tacked on top of the pot rather than mounted internally. 100% mountain banjo:

 

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Don't you find it curious that she corrected the appraiser and was very specific that she heard "Bluegrass" music played on the banjo?  Besides Bluegrass being from total commercial origins, that is not a satisfactory instrument for that style of music.  The soiling pattern on the head also is not consistent with bluegrass technique.

What is also interesting is that the bridge is a near exact match for the pattern given in the "how to make a banjo" template from Frank Converse's 1865 banjo instructor.

It also seems strange to me that one would carve a date on a banjo 10 years after it was built.

I'd still call this a tackhead.  The design and style resembles what is now generally called "tramp art."  In fact, it looks like the almost perfect example of what has become known as "tramp art." 

csacwp - Posted - 05/02/2018:  06:29:53

quote:

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Originally posted by Clifton Hicks

In other news, master musician and instrument maker Rick Ward of Watauga County, NC was kind enough to call me back the other day in response to questions about his grandfather Tab Ward's banjo building. In summary: Tab Ward was born c. 1903 and is known to have began playing banjo (probably via cultural education programs held at the local Rominger School) by 1915 or 1916. Rick suspects that he learned to build the distinctive Hicks style mountain banjo right around that same time, probably at Rominger and possibly from Roby Monroe Hicks who was already building them.

So, how many years did our Mountain Banjo Experts insist that these instruments originated no earlier than the 1920s without ever consulting the well-known Ward family? It certainly doesn't seem like these "researchers" dug very deep at all, or interviewed very many Appalachians (if any), before imposing their arbitrary date of origin.

Sincerely,

CF Hicks

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Because that is ANECDOTAL information.  You seem to have missed that another member found photographic evidence that would suggest mountain banjos date to the 1910s, so we have already moved our working date back from then.  Our previous date is not arbitrary- it is based on indisputable evidence, not whims or anecdotes.  



It is also bold of you to suggest that I haven't spoken to "Appalachians" about these topics.  I have on multiple occasions, and I've come away with some really crazy anecdotes, like the whole Daner Johnson beating Fred Van Eps in a banjo competition myth that I disproved a couple of years ago.  



If anecdotes were all we had, then we would have to work with them despite the large risk involved.  Luckily, we have literal mountains of evidence... Material culture (instruments, accessories), papers (30,000 + pieces of original sheet music for the banjo, catalogs, patents, journals, published reminisces that factually check out under scrutiny, tutor books, period anthropological research, newspapers, event logs, concert broadsides, etc.), audio recordings (cylinders, 78's, 45's)... I can keep going on.  These types of evidence outweigh anecdotes (they would at least in any serious academic research).  Furthermore, much of this stuff comes from Appalachia, and it only gets more interesting from there.  I know Tony Thomas has found a lot of evidence that rural southern Black banjoists were playing classic style banjo in the later half of the 19th century, which has a lot of interesting implications.       

Edited by - csacwp on 05/02/2018 06:36:45

Clifton Hicks - Posted - 05/02/2018:  07:29:54

quote:

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Originally posted by Joel Hooks

Don't you find it curious that she corrected the appraiser and was very specific that she heard "Bluegrass" music played on the banjo? 

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The term "bluegrass" is now commonly used to describe any older rural music. I think the lady in the video used that term so the appraiser would understand that her relatives played "old-fashioned" music.

Joel Hooks - Posted - 05/02/2018:  07:51:27

quote:

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Originally posted by Clifton Hicks

quote:

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Originally posted by Joel Hooks

Don't you find it curious that she corrected the appraiser and was very specific that she heard "Bluegrass" music played on the banjo? 

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The term "bluegrass" is now commonly used to describe any older rural music. I think the lady in the video used that term so the appraiser would understand that her relatives played "old-fashioned" music.

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Are you calling into question the veracity of her story and claims?  "Bluegrass" was as specific as the dates that she gave.

Clifton Hicks - Posted - 05/02/2018:  08:21:11

quote:

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Originally posted by Joel Hooks

quote:

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Originally posted by Clifton Hicks

quote:

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Originally posted by Joel Hooks

Don't you find it curious that she corrected the appraiser and was very specific that she heard "Bluegrass" music played on the banjo? 

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The term "bluegrass" is now commonly used to describe any older rural music. I think the lady in the video used that term so the appraiser would understand that her relatives played "old-fashioned" music.

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Are you calling into question the veracity of her story and claims?  "Bluegrass" was as specific as the dates that she gave.

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No, sir. I am explaining to you (after you asked me) what the lady most likely meant by "bluegrass." Like I said, the term is now widely used to describe any older form of rural music... especially  banjo music.

Shall we continue discussing contemporary slang or can we get back to banjo history now?

Ira Gitlin - Posted - 05/02/2018:  11:01:45

I have often heard the word "bluegrass" used to describe musical styles that have only a very vague affinity to the stuff that we here would recognize as belonging under that rubric.

crazybilly - Posted - 05/02/2018:  11:47:16

Shoot, I used it that way myself just the other day.

We were setting up the PA for an open air gig along a street with a lot of pedestrian traffic. Dude asked what kind of music we play.

I said "you know, Old Time". He stared at me blankly.

So I said, "you know like folk kind of stuff but more old timey-ier sorts of stuff." More blank staring.

"Bluegrass, man. It's pretty much bluegrass."

"Ohhh!! I LOVE bluegrass!"

Joel Hooks - Posted - 05/02/2018:  12:04:10

It is great that we know when she said Bluegrass she meant "old time" even though she corrected the appraiser who tried to lead the conversation into "old time" music.



It is sort of a double standard.



She was very specific-- she heard Bluegrass and Southern Baptist music played on this banjo. That is her story and she is the bearer of the family oral tradition of this banjo.



Why is it okay to assume that she meant "old time" but said "bluegrass?"



Why is it not okay to deduce that when the claim is made of a family making Proffitt/Hicks "mountain banjos" since the American Civil War that they were confused (just like this lady) and they were really making tackhead banjos?



See-- this is a problem.  And it is relevant as a part of this discussion on mountain banjo history.



I don't doubt that she was mistaken. But by the research standards of folklore we should not question her story.

Edited by - Joel Hooks on 05/02/2018 12:09:47

Joel Hooks - Posted - 05/02/2018:  12:05:49

Or should we as is being done here?

IMBanjoJim - Posted - 05/02/2018:  12:13:59

I'm gonna jump in and say we've been done with this thread for some time. Let the poor thing die, already!

Clifton Hicks - Posted - 05/03/2018:  16:59:13

quote:

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Originally posted by Joel Hooks

Why is it okay to assume that she meant "old time" but said "bluegrass?"

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Again: The term "bluegrass" is commonly used to describe any older rural music. I think the lady in the video used that term so the appraiser would understand that her relatives played "old-fashioned" music.

(^ this is an educated guess, not an "assumption.")

I think neither the Hickses nor the lady in the video were confused--but they do appear to have confused you, sir.

csacwp - Posted - 05/03/2018:  17:28:18

quote:

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Originally posted by Clifton Hicks

quote:

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Originally posted by Joel Hooks

Why is it okay to assume that she meant "old time" but said "bluegrass?"

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Again: The term "bluegrass" is commonly used to describe any older rural music. I think the lady in the video used that term so the appraiser would understand that her relatives played "old-fashioned" music.

(^ this is an educated guess, not an "assumption.")

I think neither the Hickses nor the lady in the video were confused--but they do appear to have confused you, sir.

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So why can't I make an educated guess and conclude that Hick's ancestor was in fact making tack head banjos after the Civil War?  A lot of people confuse mountain banjos with tack head banjos.  

Clifton Hicks - Posted - 05/03/2018:  18:17:55

quote:

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Originally posted by csacwp

quote:

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Originally posted by Clifton Hicks

quote:

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Originally posted by Joel Hooks

Why is it okay to assume that she meant "old time" but said "bluegrass?"

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Again: The term "bluegrass" is commonly used to describe any older rural music. I think the lady in the video used that term so the appraiser would understand that her relatives played "old-fashioned" music.

(^ this is an educated guess, not an "assumption.")

I think neither the Hickses nor the lady in the video were confused--but they do appear to have confused you, sir.

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So why can't I make an educated guess and conclude that Hick's ancestor was in fact making tack head banjos after the Civil War?  A lot of people confuse mountain banjos with tack head banjos.  

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You may make that guess, just as I may beg to differ.

Edited by - Clifton Hicks on 05/03/2018 18:22:26

mike gregory - Posted - 05/03/2018:  18:37:21

Some may BEG to differ.

Some may CHOOSE to differ.

But, you know, we ALL know, the Ancient RULE:

"Beggars can't be choosers!"     

Clifton Hicks - Posted - 05/05/2018:  07:46:47

I provide the following examples in response to a certain element here who appear unaware of the now widespread, though erroneous, usage of the term "bluegrass" to denote any form of acoustic rural music that the modern speaker deems old-fashioned or rustic:

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Definition of bluegrass music from Miriam-Webster:

country music played on unamplified stringed instruments and characterized by free improvisation and close, usually high-pitched harmony.

The above definition could be used to describe almost any form of rural American music.

As another example, here's a clip from film maker David Hoffman's 1965 Bluegrass Roots (Hoffman describes Bascam Lamar Lunsford's performance as "a bluegrass music classic"): Bluegrass Roots: music makers of the Blue Ridge

Edited by - Clifton Hicks on 05/05/2018 07:48:11