scthompson - Posted - 11/22/2017:  11:22:11

After a LONG hiatus, I'm back to banjo (and more than fully recovered for anyone that remembers my saga:) Much is coming right back, but the things that weren't fully dialed in require a complete reboot. Right now I'm trying to get to the point where I can drop in a full closed chord on the strum after the melody note, and I'm finding it SO HARD! No matter how many times I pick up the banjo and play Old Joe Clark, for instance, I can't get the the F part to come in cleanly. It seems like, sometimes, the more I practice, the worse it gets over the session! And I know from other types of training, such as martial arts and strength, that there are optimal numbers of reps or minutes of active work before it is best to take an hour or even a day off.

This leads me to ask, do you have an optimal number of reps when you are trying to get something down, whether it is a fingering progression, a tricky shape, or whatever?

stevel - Posted - 11/22/2017:  11:37:27

I rarely play a full F chord, unless I'm trying to do something way up the neck.

Just finger the notes you want to strike and go from there.

scthompson - Posted - 11/22/2017:  11:42:56

It looks like we're neighbors!

WayneConrad - Posted - 11/22/2017:  11:51:48

I don't have a static number; it changes depending upon what I'm practicing and how well I'm progressing. What I do is to pay attention to my progress during the practice session. If I go through some number of reps with no improvement, I first try to change how I am practicing. Use metronome, don't use metronome, go slower, go faster, do some related exercises and come back to it, etc. If that doesn't help, then I leave off that thing and come back to it in a different session. Often (maybe even usually), improvement comes between sessions, so not seeing any improvement during a session doesn't necessarily mean that it's all for naught. But being frustrated ruins a practice session, so I will never continue to practice something once I'm truly frustrated with it.



The short answer: Once I can see no progress, then stop practicing that thing during that session.

Edited by - WayneConrad on 11/22/2017 12:06:47

WayneConrad - Posted - 11/22/2017:  12:11:03

By the way, this is a perfect subject for the Practice Group, so I've linked your post to that group.  Thanks for asking this.

RB00 - Posted - 11/22/2017:  18:32:49

Sometimes just a change of scenery helps. If I get stuck in a rut on a particular part of a tune I take it out to the rocker on the back porch or on the picnic table on the back patio. Seems to give my senses a reset.

SixBs - Posted - 11/22/2017:  18:45:02

I’ve heard that Merle Haggard would play a new song 200 times before he would even play it with his band. So there’s your magic number.

banjo bill-e - Posted - 11/22/2017:  18:59:51

Can you make a clean F chord when not playing anything? Just make an F and strum, are you getting a clean F? I would try just holding a clean F and strum or bum-ditty for awhile and don't worry about changing chords, just let your hand get comfortable with holding that F shape while you play. Might help.

chip arnold - Posted - 11/23/2017:  07:24:34

It will come, but there is no magic number that fits all people. Just keep working at it. Practice SLOWLY and work at placing all four fingers down at once. But ... very few people strum all the strings at once. I would just fret the third and fourth strings, which is where the melody notes are in that tune. I almost never fret a full, four finger chord, but rather leave at least one finger free to catch other notes. (For me) too much multi string strumming just muddies up the tune. Listen to a lot of clawhammer players on YouTube and you'll see what I mean. :-)

BrooksMT - Posted - 12/04/2017:  11:49:07

For information on how to practice, check out Josh Turknett's writings "The Immutable Laws of Brainjo". I came at practice methods from a different direction than Josh, but reached pretty much the same conclusions as he.



I agree with what the previous players wrote. To that I'd add:

1. Shorter, frequent practice sessions are Much better than marathon sessions. Your brain has to transfer the new information from the left side to the right side if you want to get to "automatic, smooth playing." This takes time, time away from the instrument: 24 hours when I first started, now sometimes as little as 15 minutes; that is, play for 15 minutes, rest 15 or longer, then try again. I often see "magic" improvement with this method. Magic in the sense of "I was not this good when I quit, but now I am much better...and I did not even do anything." Ah, but your brain did, while you were resting.



2. The brain has only so much "shelf space" for new stuff. If you fill up the shelf, then keep practicing...guess what, the newer stuff shoves the previous stuff off the shelf :-( This is why students constantly complain "but Teach, I practiced this for an hour, and I'm just as bad as I was before I started!" The student filled the shelf, then spent the rest of the hour knocking stuff off it..opps.



I think the shelf gets bigger/longer as you progress, but I am not sure. My wife heard a NPR interview of a well known, very successful, piano player (she missed his name because she tuned in after the show had started). The upshot was that the guy used to practice 6 hours/day, but now practices only 1:30/2 days, i.e. 45min equivalent/day. So much for the marathon practice sessions the "experts" have claimed necessary for centuries. The piano player found that less practice yielded faster mastery. I'd interpret his results as a) his shelf got longer than mine, but topped out at 1:30 b) his faster progress is precisely because he gave his brain time to process the shelf, in this case 48 hours between practice sessions.



3. Slowww practice is much more efficient than fast, at least when you are working on a hard bit. I used to play a song at regular speed, figuring the bad bits would gradually get better. Does not work that way for me, oops... Your brain assumes that what you did most is what you want to save....so if you run through a song 10 times and get it right 3 times and wrong 7 times, guess what the brain stores.... But if you do 3 times at a slow enough speed to get the bad bit perfect, and then Quit, you will get the magic improvement.



4. Practicing fingering exercises does not (usually) work for me. But practicing placement of 4 fingers for the F chord form does. Take it slow, get it right, and Shazam, it becomes easier :-)



This is all stuff I wish I knew when I first started with stringed instruments. Hope it helps

Edited by - BrooksMT on 12/04/2017 11:54:04

John Gribble - Posted - 12/05/2017:  02:49:15

I don't know if there's an optimum number of repeats to get a particular problem ironed out. With me it varies. Sometimes one practice session is enough to get something down. Sometimes I have to chase it around for weeks before something comes together. But I do think practicing smart is important. I will analyze the problem, break the problem down into little bite-sized (and do-able) moves, and go over the problem passage as slowly as necessary to get it right. and then repeat. And repeat. And repeat some more, until I start seeing some improvement. Practicing slowly and carefully is really important.



For example, you mentioned not being able to get "the F part" clean in "Old Joe Clark". That was vague. What exactly is the problem? The F chord sounds muted or buzzes? You're unable to get the fingers in place before the right hand makes its moves?

Edited by - John Gribble on 12/05/2017 02:50:30

scthompson - Posted - 12/05/2017:  06:28:55

My problem was that I couldn't get all the fingers down simultaneously to get a nice clean chord sound - often muted or wrong notes. But I followed these suggestions to walk through it slowly, repeatedly, for five minutes here and there, and it's almost dialed in now!

Eugene_K - Posted - 12/05/2017:  11:15:30

I find I learn the fastest when I have several short sessions each day. By that I mean no more that 15 minutes at a time, but try to do it 3 - 5 times each day. It seems that when I do that, my brain works on the problem between sessions. As well, it avoids that sense of frustration you get when you work at something for a long stretch and it seems you're getting worse, not better. Has anyone else shared this experience?

Helix - Posted - 12/05/2017:  12:48:24

There is a thing called repetitive stress syndrome, don't get that. I agree with Eugene K: rest a little in between to give your body a chance to sleep on it with muscle memory.

A pianist made a little spring excerciser for his right pinky, it worked so good he paralyzed his finger, you have already healed, now heal up.




And the 4 Harris Hawks.

 

OldPappy - Posted - 12/05/2017:  13:55:54

There is a risk here.

Repetitive practice can just as easily reinforce bad technique as it can good, and bad habits that are thoroughly ingrained through practice can be very difficult to resolve later on.

You have to have good rhythm, and timing before anything else will matter.

I recommend you get a copy of Dwight Diller's "Just Rhythm" DVD and start from there.

This DVD may be up on his BandCamp site by now, but if not, let me know if you want to get a copy, and I will be glad to help track that down.

banjered - Posted - 12/05/2017:  19:23:49

I also practiced my own way and reached the same concussion. banjered

BrooksMT - Posted - 12/06/2017:  16:36:23

Eugene K, that's exactly my experience too. 2 or more 15 min practices per day, with at least an hour between them, advances my playing much more than a solid hour all-in-one-session. Your brain needs processing time, and repeated correct playing, to advance. This is why trying to make up missed practices, say on the weekend, fails to yield the advancement you wish. A little bit of accuracy every day is far superior to a marathon of ok/not ok/ok/not ok on Saturday. This is due to the way your brain learns. See Dr. Josh Turknett for more details (if you can't trust a brain surgeon.....)

I try to a avoid frustration. If you try to force your way through a frustrating bit, and are not successful, you hurt yourself 2 ways:
1) The more mistakes you make, the more your brain saves them in preference to the few good times you made it through the piece. "You are good at what you practice"....so if you spend your time practicing mistakes, that's what you get good at, sigh. I figure if I get it wrong 3 times in a row, it's better to stop. I can try again next practice session, going slower, and that almost always fixes it.
2) Once you start associating frustration, anger, sadness, or other negative emotion with your instrument, it gets harder and harder to pick it up to play, either for practicing a hard bit, or even just for playing for fun. This kills incentive, and it starts the end of your efforts to master anything. We all have more frustration in our lives than we need....don't add your instrument to that list. Quit when your get tired or frustrated. "Wait an hour, then try again" is much better than "Practice till you are sick of it, then practice some more". The "Sick of it" philosophy, preached by so many instructors, is really Aversion Therapy....want to teach yourself to quit the banjo? then by all means go the aversion therapy route.

Matt Allen - Posted - 12/06/2017:  19:38:35

It’s just about practicing it perfectly over and over. I do martial arts and they key is just daily repetition. My advice is also to not overprsctice and overthink. At that point things get harder

Mooooo - Posted - 12/06/2017:  20:59:38

quote:

---

Originally posted by scthompson

magic number of practice reps?

---

There is in fact a magical number, but magicians are sworn to secrecy, but I can tell you that the magic number (X) has something to do with Cadabra and Ala Kazzam.

jojo25 - Posted - 12/30/2017:  11:58:22

Lots of good advice here...I too say multiple small sessions daily. Research shows this doubles your daily rate of learning vs. the same time all in 1 session. On a somber note...in Scruggs' instruction book (I know, BG, but still) he tells you to practice a roll 10,000 times!! Good luck... and have fun!

BrooksMT - Posted - 12/31/2017:  09:20:58

Earl Scruggs was very successful. Hard to argue with success....Well, noooo, sometimes folks are successful In Spite of their actions.

The practice methods developed by Josh Turknett are unlike any I ever heard before. Like I said, I came at practice from a different direction than Josh, but when I learned of his writings, I found that we'd reached similar conclusions. People who have studied Expertise say it takes 2000-10,000 hours of practice to become an expert. Why the large range (5x)? I think it is due to How you practice.

If you follow the "new" methods, you'll get there 5x faster than if you follow the old methods. Proof: I first tried banjo back in the 70's. I followed the old, "tried and true" practice methods recommended by books and instructors. I did not get where I wanted to be after 5 years of effort, so I quit. The old methods did not work for me. Then, 2 years ago, I ran across a guy who said "Anyone can do this." I won't say his name because he was eventually banned from BHO. But I decided to try music again. This time, I used my 20 years experience in learning other right brain skills (calligraphy, painting realistically, biplane acrobatics) to design my own practice routine. It was an experiment, I had no idea if it would work for music. But, to my immense joy (I'd wanted to play banjo ever since I was a kid) the new ways proved very successful. After 1 year of new banjo, I was farther along than after 5 years of old banjo. As a retired scientist, I like to see a control for every experiment. My 5 year failure was the control that proved that the new 1 year program worked :-)

Try Josh's methods (or try mine, I can email you an outline I made for some other prospective musicians). I think you will be pleasantly surprized by your new progress. You can practice 1hr/day for 27 years to get in the 10,000, or you can practice 4, 15min sessions/day for 5 1/2 years to get in the 2000....your call :-)

John Gribble - Posted - 12/31/2017:  17:30:05

Addressing the one problem you wrote about (fingering the chord after playing a note), if the note is part of the chord, finger the chord first.

I learned to anticipate what I was going to do, rather than wait until it was time to be in place before making my moves. 

And go slow. Don't play any faster than you can play the "hard part" comfortably.  Don't speed up and slow down. As you get the challenge smoothed out, you can increase the speed and stay on beat.

One trick for that F chord: Put the ring and pinkie fingers down first. The first two fingers are easy to control. If you work a little on those weaker fingers, pretty soon they will be as useful as the other two.

banjered - Posted - 01/01/2018:  06:39:37

So many good tips above. Here is one that works for me, maybe you and others. Practice really intensely, full attention, 10-15 minutes JUST BEFORE YOU GO TO SLEEP! As soon as your hand or brain conk out - quit! But you practice intensely untill you hit a certtain exhaustion point. During sleep, your brain builds new pathways and you'll be surprised how much easier the moves are the next day. banjered

maryzcox - Posted - 01/05/2018:  18:58:00

Don't practice anything until you can hum  or sing the melody of the tune aloud. When you know the tune firmly in your head then maybe practice a couple times a day for 15 minutes ?  Maybe 30 minutes after you have calluses on your fingertips.  But truly--just do the right hand until you are steady with timing and can cleary hum or sing the melody--then make sure you have good fingering position and then start tunes.  Play them all the way through without stopping--when you can play it slow smooth--then speed up the whole tune at once. 

Hope this helps :) 

maryzcox.com

ps. after you learn all the right notes--then you can play all the wrong notes & that takes no practice at all--just play any old thing you want :)

Tuckhammer - Posted - 01/06/2018:  16:58:46

I've found for me the first thing is to have the desire to really want to learn to play whatever it it's you are practicing. Once you learn how something it's played, just take your time playing it slow. I personally don't have set times to practice...takes the fun out of it lol! I've noticed lately that if I start playing slow, concentrating on left and right hand finger placement, I can pick up speed with accuracy. Once I get board, stop. But everyone is different. Keep it fun!

Jimbeaux - Posted - 01/09/2018:  04:43:17

Ever hear of the rule of 10,000? Interesting, but not the whole picture: businessinsider.de/expert-rule...&IR=T