gicts - Posted - 07/24/2017:  07:46:13

Hey guys, I'm not sure where else to turn to post the gazillion questions and ideas that are bouncing around my head, so I hope this is an ok place to park them.

I picked up some rough cut 4/4 walnut and cherry this weekend and am trying to turn it into a mountain banjo. I have an 8" Remo drum in an attempt to make this build even more simplistic given it is my first and I'm not aiming for a grand slam on my first swing. I do have the Foxfire 3 book and am basing it loosely off of those designs.

Since the boards were less than 8" wide, I've decided to do a substantial amount of lamination. I've got the neck cutup (attached) and is now gluing. I guess my first of many questions is if I should bother with dowels for the head. Thinking of using 3x 4" strips. I'm also weighing using butterfly joints because why not? Would either of these joining methods weigh negatively on the sound?

I tried google-ing dowels and banjos, but you can imagine all the other results that came up instead.

Another question is regarding the whole size for the top of the head. Would a loose fit work for the drum and the pressure from the strings holding it in place suffice? 

Edited by - gicts on 07/27/2017 06:14:44

 

rudy - Posted - 07/24/2017:  08:22:34

This is a good place to ask your questions.

Since you're using a 8" drum head I'd suggest you use the "alternate tensioning design" shown on the mountain banjo pdf available here:

bluestemstrings.com:80/pageFPMB1.html">web.archive.org/web/20160325021743/bluestemstrings.com:80/pageFPMB1.html

thisoldman - Posted - 07/24/2017:  10:46:34

I do a little (repeat, little) bit of woodworking, and while a butterfly inlay would look cool, I'm thinking that it would not provide a strong enough joint, given the angles involved.  I'm thinking that a dowel joint would provide more strength, both physical strength and the with the increased glue surface.  If it were up to me, I also would think of a loose tenon joint., as I wouldn't need to be as precise in my drilling/chiseling to get a strong joint.  And a scarf joint, discussed in this thread (banjohangout.org/archive/283245 ) would provide a lot of glue surface.  Dowel and loose tenon joints would come with clamping issues, while I think a scarf joint would create less of a problem in that part of the process.  

gicts - Posted - 07/24/2017:  11:40:34

Gramps made our family a laminated cutting board when I was young (pic semi related). I'm somewhat focused on creating that kind of look for the pot. Essentially 2 cutting boards sandwiching the drum 

Since I'm lopping an 8" hole in one, I'm not sure how just the laminate will hold. To further things, I'm second guessing the need for that middle 'donut' wood since I'm using a drum. I'm picturing using spacers to keep the stability. 

quote:

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Originally posted by thisoldman

 

I do a little (repeat, little) bit of woodworking, and while a butterfly inlay would look cool, I'm thinking that it would not provide a strong enough joint, given the angles involved.  I'm thinking that a dowel joint would provide more strength, both physical strength and the with the increased glue surface.  If it were up to me, I also would think of a loose tenon joint., as I wouldn't need to be as precise in my drilling/chiseling to get a strong joint.  And a scarf joint, discussed in this thread (banjohangout.org/archive/283245 ) would provide a lot of glue surface.  Dowel and loose tenon joints would come with clamping issues, while I think a scarf joint would create less of a problem in that part of the process.  

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You're right, I may not even have room for a butterfly given it's just a 2" ring. Scarf joints may be a good option. I'll have to check my router and see if I could do some tongue and groove ...

quote:

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Originally posted by rudy

 

This is a good place to ask your questions.

Since you're using a 8" drum head I'd suggest you use the "alternate tensioning design" shown on the mountain banjo pdf available here:

bluestemstrings.com:80/pageFPMB1.html">web.archive.org/web/20160325021743/bluestemstrings.com:80/pageFPMB1.html

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Thanks for the pdf. I actually filed that away in the memory banks many months ago before I got the Foxfire book and hadn't thought of looking at it again. I think it's the best rendering I have to go off of.

 

mike gregory - Posted - 07/24/2017:  13:51:42

Welcome to the wonderful world of Do-It-Yourself banjo building.

Trying to envision a drum between two cutting boards.



Trying to envision the boards NOT letting go at the joints, NOT splitting from the tension.



BUT! Come to think of it, the drum is taking the tension, and the cutting boards are basically just a decorative frame.



If I understand it properly, seems like it should work.

Edited by - mike gregory on 07/24/2017 13:54:03

thisoldman - Posted - 07/25/2017:  05:40:44

With re-reading comes clarity, and sometimes more questions. As I re-read the post, you were talking about the head and I interpreted that as the headstock, therefore the suggestion of a scarf joint. Now if we are talking the pot, then it appears that builders are basically using butt joints, from what I've seen here on the HO. With today's glues, and the stresses involved, that is probably enough. A butterfly between joints would give more strength and a decorative element. Dowels or loose tenon joint would add more strength, but probably not necessary. And using scarf joints would require more work/time than really necessary I would think. Now if we were talking neck/headstock joint, then a scarf joint would probably be the easiest solution. There are videos on youtube showing how to measure, cut, fit and glue up scarf joints for guitar necks.

gicts - Posted - 07/25/2017:  06:52:11

I didn't make much progress last night other than some more plane-ing, gluing, and started to sketch out the shape. Right now I just have a hunk of wood with alternating colors.

quote:

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Originally posted by thisoldman

 

With re-reading comes clarity, and sometimes more questions. As I re-read the post, you were talking about the head and I interpreted that as the headstock, therefore the suggestion of a scarf joint. Now if we are talking the pot, then it appears that builders are basically using butt joints, from what I've seen here on the HO. With today's glues, and the stresses involved, that is probably enough. A butterfly between joints would give more strength and a decorative element. Dowels or loose tenon joint would add more strength, but probably not necessary. And using scarf joints would require more work/time than really necessary I would think. Now if we were talking neck/headstock joint, then a scarf joint would probably be the easiest solution. There are videos on youtube showing how to measure, cut, fit and glue up scarf joints for guitar necks.

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:)

You prompted me to spend most of last night on youtube studying the scarf joint and angle required for the headstock. That may come before the pot (head - I'm still learning the terminology I suppose) since a bearing went out in my dad's 12" planer this weekend and I'm stuck with the 5" benchtop one until the parts come in.

quote:

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Originally posted by mike gregory

 

Welcome to the wonderful world of Do-It-Yourself banjo building.

Trying to envision a drum between two cutting boards.



Trying to envision the boards NOT letting go at the joints, NOT splitting from the tension.



BUT! Come to think of it, the drum is taking the tension, and the cutting boards are basically just a decorative frame.



If I understand it properly, seems like it should work.

---

In my time lurking, I've been a big fan of your work!

That's how I'm picturing it - hopefully it'll pan out right. It sure is a decorative frame or even a cup holder with the cup being the drum. I attached a doodle since a pic is worth a thousand words. If need be, I could support it with some thin back layer since it shouldn't be seen. The pdf thisoldman referenced (Bluestem Proffitt Style 25") is where I'm drawing my measurements and references from fwiw.

I hope I"m not completely re-inventing the wheel, I've seen a few others incorporate a drum. Looks like that's what's done in this picture and the guy in this video mentions he used a drum. I first saw it referenced in the mountain banjo thread archives. I have the 8" Remo Fiberskyn Frame Drum which I seem to have ordered just before they doubled their price. It has a depth of 3".

In liue of the middle wood, I'm wondering if using all thread rod and a series of nuts would be an ok road to take since something certainly is needed to keeep the neck and pot joint from moving in and out and that'd be a lot of wood in the middle that seems to serve no purpose given the drum is there.

Edited by - gicts on 07/25/2017 07:09:52