holle8e3 - Posted - 04/17/2017:  13:13:02

Pictures

This banjo was recently saved and I'm new to the vintage banjo scene. From what I can gather it's a ~1923 Vega Tubaphone #3 with a 10 15/16" head, serial number 65621. I was wondering if you might have some other info/advice for me. As you can see in the pictures the main issues are; 

A. The split or delamination of the pot on the back side.

B. The neck binding is chipping off.

C. Frets are shifting left and right, pushing on the binding.

D. Some of the frets show pretty bad wear

E. It needs a good cleaning

Some questions I have;

1. What's it worth as it sits?

2. What's it worth all fixed up? (I plan on keeping it to play)

3. Does it seem that all the hardware is original? Tuners? Tail piece?

4. Repair the split pot?

5. Replace the binding? Or try to salvage the original binding (the original missing chipped pieces are in the case)

6. Best bridge for clawhammer style?

7. What kind of strings?

8. Any reputable banjo luthiers in the Minneapolis area that would be able to do the job right?

Thank you so much for the help.

mainejohn - Posted - 04/17/2017:  13:44:39

I "rescued" the exact same model about a year ago, and sent it to Smakula Fretted Instruments in WV, who did a superb restoration job. Yours appears to be in much better condition than mine was. They repaired a badly damaged peghead and replaced my peghead overlay (yours doesn't appear to need that), refretted and re-bound the fretboard, and straightened the bow in the neck (yours may not need that). The brackets and tuners appear to be original, and from what I see it doesn't need much of a "clean up." Hard to advise on the split rim without seeing it. The #3 is a beautiful example of Vega's 1920's craftsmanship, but in my opinion they aren't as much sought after as they were a few years ago. I'd value mine at around $2000 to $2200 in its restored condition, and if you were to have yours done right, and since you have what appears the original case, I'd value yours somewhat higher in a restored condition. The finish on yours appears to be original and in good shape, which is good, and helps the value.  I know there are good luthiers in Mpls, but Smakula has specialized in Vega restoration for years, and I highly recommend at least contacting him.

Joel Hooks - Posted - 04/17/2017:  13:55:38

Look at that!  It still has a gut string attached. It looks like a third string that was moved to the first-- but gut none the less.

Crusty - Posted - 04/17/2017:  14:17:52

Those are in the best open backs ever made category.  Send it to Bob Smakula for restoration and it'll have another 100 years in it for not that much money.

mainejohn - Posted - 04/17/2017:  14:27:47

Upon closer examination: The brackets may be original, but considering how clean and bright they are, I'd be tempted to say they aren't original. The tailpiece isn't original, and I've never seen anything like it. The slight delamination in the rim doesn't look serious. I repaired one like that once by slipping some titebond into the delaminated area, then clamping the rim. But...I am an amateur, and a professional luthier might have a better approach. If it were mine, I'd have new binding installed, and leave the frets alone, as they look to be in pretty good shape. Planetary tuners, even the narrow shaft version, will require a slight enlargement of the holes, something to consider. I'd leave the 5th tuner alone. Craig "Frailin" Evans, a BHO, Twin Cities (and elsewhere) legend,  is a resource I would pursue. Homestake Pickin' Parlor in the Richfield/Bloomington area is also a good resource.

 

Bill H - Posted - 04/17/2017:  14:56:27

That is just beautiful--in the original case and so pristine. I would bet it was stored someplace high and dry and some shrinkage has occurred causing the minor gaps. Johns' advice is solid, Bob Smakula is very helpful and knowledgeable.

rcc56 - Posted - 04/17/2017:  14:59:40

The tailpiece is a patent pending "cammed" No-Knot, and is as old or older as the banjo. Can't tell for sure from the pics, but the hooks and nuts on the bass side of the heel appear to be original and in excellent condition. If the rest of them are the same color, texture, and shape, there's a good chance that you've got a full set of originals.

Yes to repairing the open seam in the pot.  Can't judge whether it will need a refret without the instrument in hand.  It may be possible to replace only the worn frets with period wire taken from another instrument.  It is tricky to do a clean repair with bindings of that age even when you have the missing pieces, but it would certainly be worth an attempt.

Whoever you use to execute the repairs, make sure they are highly experienced with antique instruments. If in doubt, send it to Smakula or another specialist. The final value of the instrument will be dependent on the quality of the repairs. Any change in originality will reduce the value of the instrument. Of course, bear in mind that the binding must be repaired or replaced.

Edited by - rcc56 on 04/17/2017 15:03:22

The Old Timer - Posted - 04/17/2017:  18:42:28

I'd say $1000 to $1500 "as is". The original case helps a lot. I got one from an estate sale very similar to this 10 years ago. Put head, bridge, strings and 5th string pip in it and played it for several years. Don't clean it. Let the buyer do what he/she wants. Put a bridge and strings on it and sell it. Nice banjo.

mikehalloran - Posted - 04/18/2017:  11:51:52

I'm not positive the case is original but it's certainly old enough and very nice. The cammed NoKnot is certainly original — my '25/26 had the same tailpiece. The Ludwig head replaces a Rogers and is not original but no one cares.

I have never seen those tuners on a mid-'20s Vega. If you go to a patent peg, re-use the original buttons. A shop like Bob Smackula's will know how to do this.

Mine also had peeling binding. 

This is quite restorable. Either take it to someone with a lot of experience or take the time to learn how to do it yourself.

This was mine, since sold.

These are the tuners one expects to see on a 1920–29 NO 3:

Jarvie - Posted - 04/18/2017:  19:39:03

Not just a possibly original case, but a period "bump" case.
The period "bump" style cases are desirable feature- don't let someone talk you out of that. (Perhaps get a new case to take the "bumps" of wear and tear. This style case narrows past the fifth string peg- it bumps in (even earlier ones bumped out and in, looking a bit like a snake had swallowed the banjo.)

The cammed style tailpiece is also desirable in it's own right, but keep it on the banjo, please.

In picture number five, it looks like the tone ring has been off at some point- it is notched to accomodate the dowel stick, but the nothch has shifted,to around the ten o'clock position. This should be undereath the neck heel, and not visible.

I also think this is a lovely instrument, in very nice overall condition, and that these are great sounding instruments.

Best wishes on your tu-ba-phone!

rcc56 - Posted - 04/18/2017:  21:19:39

Possible value if judiciously and skillfully repaired-- approximately $2500 for this period with the plainer Vega peghead inlay. That's assuming nearly invisible repairs on the rim and binding, and leaving the hardware alone. If the binding has to be replaced, it might reduce the value slightly. Some have been listed for more but have not sold. My opinion is based on what I have seen at the better known vintage stores over the last couple of years.



We don't see many original 5 string #3's made this late. They were made in larger numbers in the 1910's.

The earlier ones had a fancy flowerpot peghead inlay, a scroll inlay at the 1st fret; and a star on the back of the heel. All the inlays on these earlier banjos were engraved.  They are worth a bit more than your banjo, though they do not necessarily sound any better.



This is a very nice banjo. I encourage you to send it only to a highly skilled repair person who has considerable experience with instruments of this age. A mediocre or botched job will devalue the banjo considerably.

Edited by - rcc56 on 04/18/2017 21:24:23

holle8e3 - Posted - 04/18/2017:  22:14:10

Everyone,

Thank you all so much! This info is great. You have all added insights that have led me to do even more research. I'll post more pictures when I get a chance. I'll take pics of all the details you have pointed out (the case too.)

It's all so fascinating. The history, craftsmanship, quality, and details are astonishing. The neck is as straight as an arrow. No twists, dips or obvious high spots. It has a very slight normal bow that should straighten out with the tension of strings. Another couple of things I noticed recently are; it appears the nut has been shimmed higher, and the serial on the dowel reads clear and on the pot it seems as though it was a 0 but re-stamped a 1. The storage compartment in the case has a bunch of old fairbanks strings still in the paper sleeves and there's even the 'Vega' wrench that's in great condition. I'd love to get it playing again. I've contacted some luthiers and haven't settled on a plan yet. Even though I’m anxious, I don't want to rush. This banjo has lasted 94 years, I’m sure it knows how to wait.

What other info do you all know about the tuning pegs?

Thanks again everyone!

Andy FitzGibbon - Posted - 04/19/2017:  05:35:57

The tuning pegs were made by Grover. They could be original, or maybe someone replaced them early on. Either way, they are appropriate for the instrument.

The cammed tailpiece is a "Sure Grip" model, which was offered on higher-end Fairbanks/Vega, Bacon, and Cole banjos.

Over stamped serial numbers are not too uncommon on Vega banjos. It's nothing to worry about.

The fret ends push the binding off as the fingerboard shrinks. It's a common problem on Vegas.

Andy

mainejohn - Posted - 04/19/2017:  06:01:31

 I thought the tailpiece wasn't original, as I've never seen one like it, but the consensus is that it is original. The tuners are friction and are stated to not be original, but it's anyone's guess as to why a previous owner would replace the original friction tuners with non-original friction tuners, which have the appearance of being period-correct.  I think the $2500 is accurate especially considering the bump case, but judging by how these old gems are selling, it might take a while. I'll take my annual road trip to Minn in late June/July and would like to see it if at all possible.

edit: I wrote this before I read Andy's post.

Edited by - mainejohn on 04/19/2017 06:04:12

mipake - Posted - 04/19/2017:  07:06:53

great banjo,   I have had several vega tubaphone banjos restored.  My advice is what I would do if it was my banjo.  You say you want to get it in playing condition and keep it to play.   what style of playing do you plan on?  do you plan on nylon strings or steel?   If the banjo condition allows string it up with the strings you want to use.  Check the action.  determine if the tuners hold.   Unfortunately, they are  the type that would drive you nuts if you want to string with steel.   Check the action.   If you are happy with it then you may only need to send the neck in for repair.  this saves a ton in postage.  The Vega tubaphone construction is very easy to assemble or disassemble.  In addition to Bob Smakula i would recommend Steve Caddick a BHO member.  He has done some excellent restoration work for me.  the current bridge is great for nylon but not  for steel.

If you decide to sell it i would do nothing to it and let the new owner make the restoration decisions.  I find professional  repairs cost more than they add to the value. 

Congratulations you have a great banjo.

BTW what is the scale?

Mike

G Edward Porgie - Posted - 04/19/2017:  10:28:27

The tuners are period correct, although they may not be the ones installed at the factory.

They are spring-loaded, and that makes them somewhat more functional than the usual friction tuner. Smoother acting and not as prone to slipping.  I have a 1923 or '24 trapdoor Gibson plectrum banjo with these same tuners and have never had much difficulty with them, although it does indeed take a tiny bit longer to tune.

I would make sure that the repairs are done by someone with lots of experience with Vega banjos, such as the people mentioned by others here. You certainly wouldn't have a classic car repaired by the teenager down the street, nor would you have a heart bypass performed by a proctologist. This banjo is a desirable and valuable instrument, so any restoration needs to be done properly. 

mikehalloran - Posted - 04/21/2017:  17:42:43

The one string is not fastened correctly on the tailpiece. Here is more info and pictures.

mugwumps.com/no_knot.html

Note that mine has its original Vega 2-foot plain maple bridge. Many gut players like these—very few steel string players do. Vega used 1/2" tall bridges.

I sold mine because I wasn't going to touch the original tuners with the rest of the banjo being in exceptionally fine original condition. My circa '21 NO 3 plectrum, mid '20s Regent 5 and Senator plectrum had the same tuners. I hated them with metal strings — just sayin'...

Those pictures of mine were taken by Gryphon Strings about 5 years after I sold it to them. Besides fixing the binding, the original Rogers head had broken by then and that's a Fibreskyn on it.

Your pics don't show all the frets but if they aren't worn, they can be re-seated and trimmed before re-binding.

The binding does not have side dots but, when you have it done, go ahead and have some put in if you prefer. Since the binding will no longer be original, it can't hurt the value.

My '20s Vegas have blue felt or orange velvet lining. The green velvet looks like a '30s or later Lifton case — doesn't mean it is, of course. If you can find a case badge or label anywhere, post a picture. I have resources that can help ID and date many cases to a decade.  

holle8e3 - Posted - 05/04/2017:  21:05:35

Hello everyone,

Here is a link with some new pictures. In this album I've also included the images I previously posted so that they're all in one place. Be sure to click the blue link at the bottom that says 'load 23 more images'. The images are high resolution, so you should be able to click on the image to enlarge it. 

imgur.com/a/BJdC3

I would like to put geared tuners on it but I don't want to ream out the peghead. Are there vintage Planet 4:1 tuners that are period correct? If so, do they have the same shaft dimensions as these Grover ones?

I'm not sure if I want to play nylgut or steel. I predominately play clawhammer but also like to dabble with finger picks. I guess I could have two bridges and play both. The nylgut strings would require oversized slots in the bridge. This 'Sure Grip' cammed no knot tail piece seems to be able to accept both nylgut and looped end steel, pretty cool. I have put on a set of Aquila 5B, Medium Tension, Super Nylgut strings. I slowly brought it up to tension over a couple of days and now they sound good. I've never played nylgut so it feels... different (soft is maybe the right word).

As far as the case, there are no markings of any kind. It's in pretty good shape and all of the case hardware is in good working order.

Thanks again everyone.

Edited by - holle8e3 on 05/04/2017 21:06:07

rcc56 - Posted - 05/04/2017:  22:48:58

quote:

---

Originally posted by holle8e3

 

I would like to put geared tuners on it but I don't want to ream out the peghead. Are there vintage Planet 4:1 tuners that are period correct? If so, do they have the same shaft dimensions as these Grover ones?

 

I just measured the shaft on a couple of prewar Patent Pending Planet 4:1 tuners.  The diameter is .282", which is .001" greater than 9/32".  They will work on a peghead that is 1/2" to 5/8" thick.  You will have to measure the peghead holes in your own banjo to see if this type of tuner will work.

Mine are not for sale, but I see similar ones advertised from time to time on at Bernunzio's, Smakula's, and on the Hangout.  Bernunzio has a set of them right now.  All of these I have seen feel a bit rough compared to modern tuners, but usually work reasonably well [for their age] if they're in good shape.

A modern alternative might be the 7.5 mm. small shaft ABM planetary tuners available from Smakula.  They are well made, however, the shaft diameter is slightly larger at .290".

Saga sells a Golden Gate P-146 tuner that they describe as 9/32" in diameter; however, Saga's descriptions are not always accurate and they also may be .290", which is what I would expect from an imported tuner.  They do not specify what peghead thicknesses they will work with.  I have no experience with Saga tuners.

 

From your new pictures, it looks like some of those frets were removed and reseated off center, and that is what broke the bindings.  That is an example of why one should choose a luthier carefully.

Hope you enjoy your new antique banjo-- the old Tubaphones are some of the best openbacks ever made.

Edited by - rcc56 on 05/04/2017 23:01:46

Andy FitzGibbon - Posted - 05/05/2017:  04:03:24

No planetary tuner will fit without enlarging the peg holes slightly. If you plan on Nylgut strings, I would leave the friction tuners in place.

Saga tuners are generally low quality Chinese workmanship. I don't recommend them to anyone.

I see no signs that any of the frets were removed. Shrinkage of the Ebony fingerboard, which causes the frets to move around and push the binding off the neck, is common on these banjos.

Andy

hbick2 - Posted - 05/05/2017:  06:00:56

I have played one of these for over 40 years. They are wonderful banjos. Mine was in mint condition when i bought it in the 1970's. It is a 1922, so the peghead inlay is a little different from yours. Your tailpiece is definitely original as are the tuners. Mine, however, came in a straight sided case with the same green lining and a Vega patch. 

I replaced the tuners with original Planets soon after I got it and placed the old ones in the case. This is what I would recommend if you want to play it with steel strings. Otherwise, keep the original tuners.

I would have the neck and pot repaired and then play it for a while. I have seen some of these with a neck reset that are impossible to play because the action is so low. I like higher action and have found Vega banjos from this era quite suitable for my style of playing. You will need to decide which is best for you. Regardless, fix it up and enjoy it. It has plenty of life left in it.

Harry Bickel

rcc56 - Posted - 05/05/2017:  07:35:51

quote:

---

Originally posted by Andy FitzGibbon



No planetary tuner will fit without enlarging the peg holes slightly. If you plan on Nylgut strings, I would leave the friction tuners in place.



Saga tuners are generally low quality Chinese workmanship. I don't recommend them to anyone.





Andy

---

Thanks for the info on the Saga tuners, Andy.  I'd rather hear it here than waste the money to find out the hard way.

mipake - Posted - 05/05/2017:  09:38:52

so you are faced with a dilemma which often comes up.   Do I change the banjo from the original by installing modern tuners and make it more playable?   In the end the banjo will tell you.  This is not some mystical belief.  i have a very cheap buckbee banjo  which i have tried very hard to restore and play as it left the factory.   i have others which i have replaced tuners on and restored beyond original  condition.  If you decide to replace the tuners I recommend the ABM which i have used before. 

 "A modern alternative might be the 7.5 mm. small shaft ABM planetary tuners available from Smakula.  They are well made, however, the shaft diameter is slightly larger at .290"