overhere - Posted - 01/11/2017:  16:00:53

Lester Flatt went in many directions. He did Dylan songs country songs folk songs. Earl may have tried “the Revue” thing , but it flopped….maybe cause he tried to use Bluegrass songs to a funky beat…it didn’t work. Bluegrass is Bluegrass. It’s unto itself anything else is just anything else but. To argue what is and what isn’t to someone who doesn’t know the difference is…what was that famous philosopher line?; “to argue with no knowledge of the subject is to try to speak with a mouth full of pebbles” or something like that.

Kenneth Logsdon - Posted - 01/11/2017:  17:17:56

Absolutely, even on this thread..

Hotrodtruck - Posted - 01/11/2017:  17:40:48

I can relate to much of what has been said. At festivals I typically stay away from the stage, preferring to jam among the campers. I go to the stage to see new acts or bands I particularly like, but "parking lot" jamming is it for me.

My complaint about attending the stage show is people in the the audience who insist on talking loud- so they can be heard over the music- and never shut up! Why sit in the audience just to run your mouth?

Edited by - Hotrodtruck on 01/11/2017 17:41:31

ceemonster - Posted - 01/11/2017:  18:47:50

[[[The Earls of Leicester puzzle me. I love listening to them. They are amazing talents. But so much energy and effort devoted to replicating a sound that already exist seems like little more than an academic exercise. Earl & Lester already did this. To me, its like going to see an Elvis impersonator, or a group imitating the Beatles. I love it, but don't completely understand why these musicians find reward in it.]]]



This is the mentality that started . . . well, there's an interesting question, when. But it's the mentality that it's "puzzling" to be creative and expressive within a set form. It's the mentality that it's just not worth doing unless you're "breaking new ground." It's the mentality that "loving it" isn't enough of a justification for devoting yourself to a métier.



This mentality is very new in human history, new but not wide.  It is totally valid and legitimate, and can even be very deep, to base your artistic life on creating/expressing within a traditional or preexisting form. And it's totally valid and legitimate, to want to branch out.  I totally get why the Earls of L have chosen the path they've chosen, and cherish them for it.



RE BG "complaints": Often just too effing fast and blaring, often too much about virtuosity over emotional range. Yes, I do prefer the old-school stuff  (because, I LOVE it), but find the "innovators" who aren't about blare and hyperactivity to be fascinating and a blast to check out.

Another issue that's a sticky wicket is, there is often a certain cultural and/or political and/or ideological and/or religious cast or ambience to a lot of BG lyrics and stage patter. It's winning to some, but it's alienating to others.





 

Edited by - ceemonster on 01/11/2017 18:51:26

Richard Hauser - Posted - 01/12/2017:  14:56:33

Years back a reporter covered a big time bluegrass festival. He wrote that when playing among themselves, musicians did not play the same material they played during performances. So they apparently do get tired of playing what the audiences hear.

Owen - Posted - 01/12/2017:  15:57:34

My biggest complaint about bluegrass is that there's precious little of it around  here.

EggerRidgeBoy - Posted - 01/12/2017:  17:02:02

Well this has been mentioned many times already, but I'll second (or seventh) it - probably my biggest frustration with bluegrass is the quality of the songwriting. I realize that writing a great, or even very good, song is very difficult, and that there are a lot of mediocre songs out there in every musical genre.  But, generally speaking, I find a good deal more lyrical "sameness" in bluegrass than I do in rock, pop, modern folk, jazz, Americana, etc.  The subject matter is more limited, and there seems to be less willingness to be creative with how emotions and ideas are expressed.  I understand that it is a fine line between a "creative bluegrass song" and a "now it is another genre" song, but I think there is a lot of room within even a traditional bluegrass structure to try out new lyrical approaches.

I think too many bands feel pressure to record a lot of their own material, since almost any professional bluegrass musician can write a serviceable bluegrass song (and you don't have to pay royalties to an outside publisher).  But I find the vast majority of new-ish songs I hear on CDs and at festivals are immediately forgettable; I feel like I've heard them a hundred times before.  I wish more bands would really focus on finding good new songs, whether from professional songwriters, from other genres, overlooked gems from the past, etc.

There are of course exceptions to all that, but they tend to be exceptions that prove the rule. For instance, a local bluegrass band here in Columbus has four or five Steeldrivers songs in their repertoire, which indicates how many great songs that band has written and recorded - several of which are quite inventive (such as one describing the Battle of Gettysburg from the perspective of the trees on the battleground).  But they had Chris Stapleton, who was a well-regarded Nashville songwriter before forming the Steeldrivers, and who has gone on to become an top-selling, award-winning country act.  Not many bands have that kind of in-house resource.  If you don't have a songwriter of that caliber in the band, go find them and record their songs.  Or at least take some chances and try to push the boundaries a bit with you own songwriting, since I don't think the world needs more "average" bluegrass songs.

Joe the banjo guy - Posted - 01/13/2017:  07:16:52

Well said, EggerRidgeBoy. 

Kenneth Logsdon - Posted - 01/13/2017:  17:30:42

Good point, too.. I've never understood, why, instead of putting out some new good Bluegrass. "My thing" or "the new way", Advancing the music", always goes back to the twenties worn out crooning,  grade B lounge singing, or the old folk ballad style with 95 chords.....

Edited by - Kenneth Logsdon on 01/13/2017 17:35:33

dupreejan - Posted - 01/13/2017:  18:35:32

 A couple of years ago I was at a Festival, and Driftwood was there. The announcer said they had sold the most CD's of all the Bands that were there in the past 4 days. And the Steel Drivers, and Town Mountain were there.

Edited by - dupreejan on 01/13/2017 18:47:52

Owen - Posted - 01/14/2017:  07:06:16

On occasion, my wife and I discuss what proportion of old/new we want to hear at a performance.   We seem to have settled on about 1/4 new... max.  But...we haven't decided whether or not we represent average/normal people.

RoofBolt75 - Posted - 01/14/2017:  08:03:52

quote:

---

Originally posted by Texasbanjo

 

I get irritated if there's too much banter going on between songs.  I don't need to listen to a bunch of jokes or a sermon, I want to listen to  music.  If you want to talk, sing instead.  To me, it seems like they aren't prepared for the gig and are wasting time so they won't have to play so many songs.  I could be wrong, but that's usually what I think.

---

I always thought that was to give the banjo time to tune after moving the capo. Actually, I was watching a video the other day of J.D. Crowe and the New South. J.D. was in the back messing with his capo and he leaned forward and told the singer: "Hey, tell them a little bit about this next song" (as he was trying to get his banjo in tune after installing the capo). 

bnjojo62 - Posted - 01/14/2017:  08:04:00

quote:

---

Originally posted by Brett

 

I believe a great many "possible" fans get turned off being subjected to very substandard bands on venues they shouldn't be on (because the promoter could fill time with a $250 band).  It's amazing how many substandard bands won't record themselves in order to improve themselves.  Recordings don't lie.  It is on the recordings you can hear timing fluctuations, 2 guys singing lead, etc.   On the same train of thought, I can understand why a promoter might try to fill some slots (early in the day or mid-afternoon) with $250 bands, because he is trying to break even (for once).  I understand the comment about a venue out in the middle of nowhere (to try to not go bankrupt promoting/supporting a festival), but does it truly have to be in a cow pasture in August when it's 105 degrees?  Again, I see the other side also, cooler temps are prone to greater chances of rain, and stuck cars, smaller audience, promoter going even more broke, etc. 

Bluegrass seems, to me, to be more of an involved form of music also and not for spectators.  I've talked to many performers about this, they can hardly sit and listen to other bands for wanting to go out and jam and pick. 

---

There are just too many so called bands who perform substandard, because it's all about them and not the music. People hear and see this and are turned off. I'm one of them.

h - Posted - 01/14/2017:  08:31:37

  Some of these complaints can apply to all live music in general.  The 80/20 rule:  if there are 3000 bluegrass bands out there, we should expect 80% of them to be mediocre.  Not bad, just not particularly interesting because they are similar to all the other mediocre bands out there.  That's why festivals have headline acts and opening acts.

   There are some unique challenges to the bluegrass genre.  It has a special spirit to it that comes from the upper south.  Somebody doesn't have to be from there to play good bluegrass, but they have to "get it". to understand that particular culture to really fit the genre.

I am glad there are Internet radio stations where I can hear bluegrass all day long, but frankly 80% of it is mediocre. It's still worth listening to sometimes.

My particular complaints:  Country music songs trying to masquerade as bluegrass:  if the song starts off telling a folksy story about "plain country folks" or some other Nashville cliche, I turn it off quick.  If it uses bluegrass instruments but shows no sense of the genre, minimal instrumental breaks etc,  - yuck.   Chick singers:  women singers have always had a place in bluegrass, but not as band leaders.  Like woman athletes, they don't have the power, no matter their particular skill level.  They can be quite listenable, but not the kind of music I would really feel, like a rousing version of Jerusalem Ridge.

top talent will always be in short supply. that's why it's valuable.

warpdrive - Posted - 01/14/2017:  08:38:05

bnjojo62! you said a mouth full buddy!
Festival promoters are a "huge"part of bluegrass complaints. Many time because they are in it just to make a buck, and some can't even play an instrument!
I have been in on the ground floor start of a few festivals, and i can tell you, the best anybody can hope for is to break even on your very first one, and trying to find established quality acts, to play a first time start up festival, is next to impossible!
You just about have to be willing to say,"i am going to throw away a certain amount of money" and then start your festival, and then, find the ear bleeding talent, and try to sell it as quality! Happens all the time!
warp!

Gordy Ohliger - Posted - 01/14/2017:  14:43:17

Don't forget to have Fun !

steve davis - Posted - 01/15/2017:  06:37:50

I hate when the show is over!

Bird Dog - Posted - 01/15/2017:  15:41:39

Every genre of music has detractors who say "It all sounds alike". And defenders who deny that vehemently.

They are both right and both wrong. If it didn't sound alike to a certain extent, it wouldn't be a recognizable genre. There are style particulars that attract the lovers of each genre. At the same time, there must be creativity and innovation to keep the music fresh within the genre. I used to have to deal with jammers who said things like, "That's not the way Ralph Stanley played it!" I have four answers to that:

1. "Thank you!"

2. "Nope. It's the way I play it."

3. "I don't do impressions; I play music."

4. "Of course not. I wouldn't steal from Ralph."

robbif - Posted - 01/15/2017:  16:36:01

Please come spend some time with me in the Creekside tent/stage at Grey Fox, and I'd hope you might change your mind.

Please check out my 2013-2016 videos to date, with more coming.

Jbo1 - Posted - 01/16/2017:  12:07:41

"Chick singers: women singers have always had a place in bluegrass, but not as band leaders. Like woman athletes, they don't have the power, no matter their particular skill level. They can be quite listenable, but not the kind of music I would really feel, like a rousing version of Jerusalem Ridge." YIKES!!!!

Um, Alison Krauss, Rhonda Vincent, Laurie Lewis....?

eagleisland - Posted - 01/16/2017:  13:22:56

quote:

---

Originally posted by Jbo1

 

"Chick singers: women singers have always had a place in bluegrass, but not as band leaders. Like woman athletes, they don't have the power, no matter their particular skill level. They can be quite listenable, but not the kind of music I would really feel, like a rousing version of Jerusalem Ridge." YIKES!!!!



Um, Alison Krauss, Rhonda Vincent, Laurie Lewis....?

---

...Alison Brown, Cia Cherryholmes, Roni Stoneman...?

Frozen Assets - Posted - 01/16/2017:  14:30:48

Not to mention Allison Krauss and Rhonda Vincent. I'd never call any of the women mentioned here outclassed by any male counterpart either as vocalists or instrumentalists. As a matter of fact, I'd give body parts to play fiddle or mandolin like either of them!

I think this entire thread is pretty silly as a matter of fact!

jhko - Posted - 01/16/2017:  14:34:24

Originally posted by h



"Chick singers: women singers have always had a place in bluegrass, but not as band leaders. Like woman athletes, they don't have the power, no matter their particular skill level. They can be quite listenable, but not the kind of music I would really feel, like a rousing version of Jerusalem Ridge." YIKES!!!!



Um, Alison Krauss, Rhonda Vincent, Laurie Lewis....?

------------------------

I don't know the others personally, but I DO know Laurie Lewis. Let me tell you that Laurie is one POWERFUL band leader (and performer, and person). Equal to any man. I wouldn't want to be around when someone expressed that opinion to her ;-).

Edited by - jhko on 01/16/2017 14:46:49

Jbo1 - Posted - 01/16/2017:  14:43:25

Please let it be known I was quoting H above. Those are not my views, as you might notice from my last line.

I've seen Alison Krauss several times, Laurie Lewis a couple of times, enjoyed listening to Alison Brown (certainly one of my top 5 favorite banjo players). It would be hard to top those shows.

PeterKSiegel - Posted - 01/16/2017:  16:46:29

The emotional content of the songs has always been at the core of bluegrass for me.

Bluegrass came along just as post-WW-II industrialization was sweeping America and putting an end to many families' long-held rural lifestyles. Young men from Kentucky and Tennessee had to move to big cities in Michigan, Illinois, and Ohio to do factory work. Bluegrass at the time of its inception was a source of comfort for the loneliness and loss they were experiencing. You can just hear that sense of loss in the Stanley Brothers' rendition of "I long to See the Old Folks" or Bill Monroe's "I'm On My Way Back to the Old Home."  The use of the old time instruments such as banjo and fiddle contributed greatly to the healing powers of the music. The list of songs about longing and loss in early bluegrass is astounding: "My Blue Ridge Cabin Home," "The White Dove," "Memories of Mother and Dad," the list goes on forever.

When I first heard the Stanley Brothers, Bill Monroe, and Flatt & Scruggs, the first thing that jumped out at me was the aching sense of loss at the center of the singing as well as the songs. The repertoire of the first-generation bluegrass musicians became important to me and to many other young people in the cities who were looking for something real when entertainment on TV was about idealized families that had never existed, and the radio was offering Fabian and Jay and the Americans. 

I still look for that emotional power in bluegrass, and I find it in both the the traditional and -- to a lesser extent -- progressive forms. What I'm getting at is that although there are big differences in performance style among bands, it's the feeling and the story, both in the words and the music, that are really meaningful for me.

Kenneth Logsdon - Posted - 01/16/2017:  17:12:05

Absolutely..  The roots of the music..  Without,  its easy to tell.. No matter how they talk it up, drool and rave, or blow up fancy skills, Its missing.. So many claim to be doing "Bluegrass" and they've never played any to start with.. and have no idea..

Edited by - Kenneth Logsdon on 01/16/2017 17:17:22

Gymbal31 - Posted - 01/17/2017:  07:52:02

quote:

---

Originally posted by h

 

  Chick singers:  women singers have always had a place in bluegrass, but not as band leaders.  Like woman athletes, they don't have the power, no matter their particular skill level.  They can be quite listenable, but not the kind of music I would really feel, like a rousing version of Jerusalem Ridge.

 

---

Geez. 1950 much?

rgoad - Posted - 01/17/2017:  12:03:20

There is not a universal agreement on what Bluegrass is. While that will be the eternal source of disagreement it is also, IMO, a Good Thing. Finished things don't grow and the constant introduction of influences and ideas will ensure Bluegrass will be around for generations as yet unborn.  Bluegrass has two 'problems' that spring from its success: it is valuable so it attracts the marketing arm of the music industry, and it attracts new people from all walks of life. To a certain extent both groups want to have an archetype that they can either label for sale or return to for a refresh of a pleasant memory. 

The musicians may enjoy that groove of tunes and find comfort in defining and identifying themselves with a specific repertoire. Others may feel a desire to continually expand and remake their tunes, and even someone else's, in a new way. I personally prefer the latter but can understand and respect the former.  I enjoy live performances when the music is identifiable, but unique for that moment and performance, like a beautiful sunset or meteor shower.  Yet the reliable presentation of a performance from a band from Sandy Hook is as necessary as the occasional comfort of my mother's stew.  

I feel that it is a growth moment for me to allow that others be allowed to enjoy one style or another without my comment either way.  For even if I don't concur with their personal tastes I can enjoy their company as a lover of Bluegrass music. 

Ken Mooney - Posted - 01/17/2017:  14:32:41

I have a number of Bluegrass CD's including Earl Scruggs , Flatts and Scruggs, Old Crow Medicine Show, and 2-4 old Various artists colaborations.
Of all the CD's that I listen to the most, almost daily , are the 6 CD's that I have by --The Grascals . They have excellent songs with great singing and harmony , guitar , fiddle ,mandolin , upright bass and definitely BANJO !!!!!!! Kristen Scott Benson is amazing !!!!
I find each of their songs , whether original or cover songs are always pleasing. If I could, I'd love to play and sing them all !!!!
If you want to hear something newer than 1950's have a listen !!!
Also another group I like to listen to is --The Roys . They have an excellent variety too !!!!
After reading this posting I'm going to check out the other BG bands mentioned too !!

overhere - Posted - 01/18/2017:  04:20:10

stanleytone :"One good thing about those complaints is that it weeds out those who don't really know or love the music."

swamprunner - Posted - 01/18/2017:  12:22:34

If you change it too much, then it probably isn't Bluegrass anymore. Learn to first, love it, and then live with it. Every band isn't going to have the jaw dropping skills of Ricky Scaggs and Kentucky Thunder, but every once in awhile, you hear something fresh and stimulating. There are many variations of great sounding pickers out there. You just have to sort through the mundane until you find the jewels. Bobby

steve davis - Posted - 01/18/2017:  14:50:57

I appreciate any band that wants to get up there.

banjodad1 - Posted - 01/18/2017:  21:30:27

I don't have any complaints. Other than little kids that can play rings around Scruggs. Ok, go for it. Others who are wildly talented and play stuff that no one can relate to. Honestly, after the late Larry McDaniel quit doing the bluegrass show on WDET I haven't kept up on bluegrass. I know what I like and I like what I know. And that is that.

overhere - Posted - 01/19/2017:  04:40:21

I’m trying to assemble a new Bluegrass band. I play banjo and guitar I need a drummer, a piano player, and someone who can play Latin Bong Bongs. An organ grinder would be a great asset would be an asset. We have several months to get ready for Wind Gap BG festival weekend….call,,,,, 777 222 5555 thanks guys…oh yeah…ask for me ….the big bopper

Kenneth Logsdon - Posted - 01/19/2017:  12:59:38

By using different hammers I can play a mean beat on my anvil... Can play with any band, style or Genre, even classical or jazz.. Count me in..

steve davis - Posted - 01/19/2017:  14:03:08

Let me know when you get a gig,Ken.

overhere - Posted - 01/19/2017:  15:06:28

yes yes Kenneth...anvils should blend right in...we could call our new music..."bluegrass" what do you think?

Kenneth Logsdon - Posted - 01/19/2017:  18:34:15

Sorry Steve, No longer on the circuit, just got fed up with the hazzle... And I quit the tv special thing 20 years ago, got tired of the phone ringing.. No longer do interviews, etc of any kind.. Its been two or three years since my picture or writeups were in the papers...  Great..

 Time for someone else..

(Oh Da****, Judy just reminded me that they caught us on a Bluegrass special thing for a short spot on tv last year, but I wasn't in front, so it doesn't count.)

Edited by - Kenneth Logsdon on 01/19/2017 18:39:10

Seth Boyd - Posted - 01/20/2017:  05:59:31

There is a word for folks that make those complaints -- peasants. If can't appreciate Ralph, Bobby, or Del singing or love the sound of a cracking archtop banjo, go get your nails done and listen to Lady Gaga or some other b*lls***. If you're a bluegrass guy and you don't like the above mentioned stuff, go put a $8,000 tone ring in your $2,000 banjo and mash some Bro-grass in B, bro. It's totally edgy to do lame, half-ass rock covers in a bluegrass setting. Yee haw hahahaha 

a g cole - Posted - 01/20/2017:  07:22:44

I think I've happened upon a gimmick that serves the purpose for me:  If I start to listen (to a record or a live band), and the sound is not pleasing to me, I simply don't listen.  Or maybe I just go away..  I have come across bands, recordings, jams,etc. that I enjoy, as well as some I don't care about.  There appear to be plenty of both kinds, as well as plenty that fit somewhere between.  I'm thankful to be able to choose.

Alex Z - Posted - 01/20/2017:  08:23:21

Complaints?  There are no complaints -- that's false news.

There are complaints, but they're not about bluegrass.

Well, the complaints are about bluegrass, but only bluegrass after 1955.

There might be complaints about bluegrass before 1955, but they are not actually complaints.

They are complaints, but I don't agree with them, so they are not valid complaints.

Women singers have no place in blue grass, and the proof of that is that I would rather hear a fiddle instrumental.

Those who don't like old time bluegrass are effeminate (and we've already dismissed the value of women in bluegrass).  Real men like real men singers, preferably from the 1950s.

This thread may break the record for the highest percentage of idiotic responses of any thread on the BHO.  Ain't it fun piling on?

Drone-X - Posted - 01/20/2017:  16:17:06

quote:

---

Originally posted by Kenneth Logsdon

 

Sorry Steve, No longer on the circuit, just got fed up with the hazzle... And I quit the tv special thing 20 years ago, got tired of the phone ringing.. No longer do interviews, etc of any kind.. Its been two or three years since my picture or writeups were in the papers...  Great..

 Time for someone else..

(Oh Da****, Judy just reminded me that they caught us on a Bluegrass special thing for a short spot on tv last year, but I wasn't in front, so it doesn't count.)

---

dude... what planet was that on? only place ive ever seen your name is on here.

Kenneth Logsdon - Posted - 01/20/2017:  16:22:16

 (thats great, I never crossed the line unless I had too!!)

Edited by - Kenneth Logsdon on 01/20/2017 16:24:23

steve davis - Posted - 01/20/2017:  16:52:42

quote:

---

Originally posted by Seth Boyd

 

There is a word for folks that make those complaints -- peasants. If can't appreciate Ralph, Bobby, or Del singing or love the sound of a cracking archtop banjo, go get your nails done and listen to Lady Gaga or some other b*lls***. If you're a bluegrass guy and you don't like the above mentioned stuff, go put a $8,000 tone ring in your $2,000 banjo and mash some Bro-grass in B, bro. It's totally edgy to do lame, half-ass rock covers in a bluegrass setting. Yee haw hahahaha 

---

If somebody wants to pay me to play rock and roll on the banjo I'm all for it,Seth.

I won't play lame or half-assed,though.That's no fun.

Peasants are just good folk that are financially challenged.

Edited by - steve davis on 01/20/2017 16:58:17

Drone-X - Posted - 01/20/2017:  18:38:39

quote:

---

Originally posted by Kenneth Logsdon

 

 (thats great, I never crossed the line unless I had too!!)

---

county line?

Redmanc - Posted - 01/21/2017:  02:51:24

I'm surprised this thread isn't locked yet. It's getting rather mean spirited

LisaSimpson - Posted - 01/21/2017:  08:35:31

Chick singers:  women singers have always had a place in bluegrass, but not as band leaders.  Like woman athletes, they don't have the power, no matter their particular skill level.  They can be quite listenable, but not the kind of music I would really feel, like a rousing version of Jerusalem Ridge.

As someone who does 60 pushups a day and out runs men on a regular basis and consistently outperforms them on the job, the power argument is out the window. Now what I think you are referring to a probably a confidence issue which I do agree with given that women are often met with comments like these virtually slapping them back into some kind of subservient role behind the band leader. If you ask me Kristen Scott Benson and Gina Clowes is at the top of her game and those that play professionally would completely agree with this. If women are out there and stepping up to the plate we need to let them. 

warpdrive - Posted - 01/21/2017:  09:23:23

Alison Brown! Sierra Hull! And i've been on stage with Rhonda Vincent before, don't tell me she doesn't run her band, she's been at it the longest, and can preform and run a band as good as any man i know!
This isn't opinion, this is a fact, and i will fight any man that says different!
"ARE WE DONE YET!"
WARP!

PeterKSiegel - Posted - 01/21/2017:  10:02:42

quote:

---

Originally posted by h

 women singers have always had a place in bluegrass, but not as band leaders. 

---

That is simply not true.

In 1963 I signed Hazel Dickens and Alice (Foster) Gerrard to Folkways Records and produced their first two albums. Their first recordings included some very strong musicians (Chubby Wise, Lamar Grier, David Grisman) but Hazel and Alice were very much the leaders throughout. They knew just what they wanted from the band and had no trouble communicating that.

So I can personally attest that there were women leading bluegrass bands more than a half century ago. Oh, and no one ever suggested that Hazel and Alice lacked the stregnth to play bluegrass. They were powerful by any standard.

Edited by - PeterKSiegel on 01/21/2017 10:04:25