mikeyb2 - Posted - 07/19/2016:  01:36:29

Sorry if this is in the wrong forum, but it may come under 'set up'.

I intend to fit medium Nylguts to a vintage 5 string banjo for clawhammer. Looking at options, the 4th string can be "Red", wound or plain. I've ruled out Red so the question is, shall I use wound or plain for the 4th?

Pros and cons please. Thanks inadvance, Mike.

rudy - Posted - 07/19/2016:  04:18:46

Aquila's string selection has been a bit difficult to work with the last few years as Mimmo  has made them somewhat of a moving target, with the formulation and configuration of sets in a state of constant change.

I personally like the next to last version of reds, with a solid unwound red 4th, but that set has been changed to a wound 4th.  The wound forth sounds better and is more consistent in intonation, but has a shorter lifespan.

The original all solid red sets had issues with breakage, but the newer formulation of the reds is a much darker red, almost brown, and doesn't seem to have any breakage issues, or at least greatly improved longevity.  

Although I think the reds have a slightly better tone and a good under-finger feel I'd recommend going with the unwound 4th Super Nylgut medium set.  Here's Elderly's listing to show the configuration:

elderly.com/accessories/string...o-set.htm

There's been confusion over exactly what "Super Nylgut" is, but it's a newer formulation of the standard Nylgut product, having a more attractive off-white (almost eggshell) color, improved tone, and are quicker to settle in, and have better intonation of notes for fretted banjos due to better consistency in the string mass along it's length.  I like these sets and I'll probably use them once I break a red on my current synthetic-equipped banjo, as I don't want to use the newer red sets with a wound 4th string.

Hope that helps and isn't too confusing.  The last several discussions about Aquila strings has been problematic as dealers have intermixed the sets as their older stock was depleted and the newer formulations replaced older sets, at least that's the only explanation I can conjure up.

RV6 - Posted - 07/19/2016:  05:58:06

I use the Super's that Rudy referenced above.

I tried the "all Red's" and had string breakage problems.  Same with the original Nylguts.  I've had the Super's on a coupe of banjo's with no problems at all.  They have less stretch than the previous Nylguts that I tried but they still stretch more than the Chris Sands Heavies I have on my Sagmoen.  The Sands have a silver wound 4th string and it's a smaller diameter than the Super's.  That took some getting used to but I now switch back and forth between the Super and Sand's strung banjos with no problem.  The Super's seem a bit louder than the Sand's to me.

banjukebox - Posted - 07/19/2016:  06:02:35

There was a set made a while back with whites on 1,2,3, and five and an unwound, red 4th. I can't find them anymore, but that is the set I would prefer.
The wound 4th tends to begin fraying very quickly.

Joel Hooks - Posted - 07/19/2016:  06:27:53

My opinion differs from Rudy's-- but it could just be that I play a different "style" of music.

From the very first true instruction book, "Briggs' Banjo Instructor" of 1855, until the manufacturer of polyester strings decided to change it-- the five string banjo as we know it had a wound fourth.  Photos that are dated before 1855 of banjoists also clearly show a wound fourth.

Perhaps banjoists have been idiots for over 150 years and never tried a unwound fourth but that seems very unlikely.  I feel that the wound fourth stuck around for a reason.

I find that the monofilament fourth sounds dull and flabby.  When really hammering down for a "bass solo" in a 6/8 military march I get no volume but I do get a lot of fret slap and buzzing.

My theory is that due to complaints about the windings coming undone after a couple of months use the polyester string maker found a way to cut product costs and keep the price the same.

I work in extrusions.  I have a very good idea of what it costs to manufacture extruded filaments in the US using proprietary compounds.  I also can guess what it takes to manufacture a would string.  I estimate that by replacing the wound fourth with an extruded monofilament they cut the cost of manufacturing the strings by more than half (the packaging now being the most expensive part of the product).

Regarding the complaints about the wound fourths.  The general feeling is that the fourths do not last a long as the extruded strings.  (This is actually not true for fretted banjos.)  Anyone using polyester strings should run their finger along the bottom of an extruded string that has been on their banjo for a while.  You will feel flat spots at the frets.  This affects tone and intonation.  I find that polyester strings are softer and develop these flat spots much faster than hard nylon.  The polyester also sounds clacky to me.

With nylon I used to get about 2 fourths to each set, meaning that I would wear out the fourth twice before I would replace the strings.  A few years ago I decided that because the individual wound fourths cost nearly as much as a full set I'd just change the whole set and use the opportunity to scrape any accumulated curd from between the frets and wipe the whole thing down with a microfiber cloth.

I use La Bella 17s.  They have actually made these thicker in the last few years and now of a hard rectified nylon from DuPont.  At just over three dollars a set I can afford to change them regularly.  They also are ready to play in a few hours and completely stable in a day.

A trick that I learned from Marc Smith (trapdoor) is to tune the strings up one full step above concert pitch after changing the strings, the next morning they are all settled in and just need touch up tuning.  Do not do the "stretching" thing where you pull the strings out-- this can stretch them uneven and make them play false.

In conclusion, I feel that by changing from a wound fourth to unwound, the manufacturer found a way to reduce costs and raise profits while responding to customer concerns and complaints.  I don't hold making a living against anyone so I am glad they were able to make this adjustment and keep the retail the same.  

Obviously I am in the minority about polyester strings so "your mileage may vary."

mikeyb2 - Posted - 07/19/2016:  06:29:30

Thanks, the Super sets don't seem to be available here, other than ukulele sets. So it's New Nylgut( not sure if that's what they might be marketed as here). It's a question of wound or unwound 4th( not red), and as mentioned about wound strings fraying and not lasting as long, I think I'll opt for the all Nylgut set which is coded as 5B.

Sorry Joel, must have been writing my post as you were writing yours. I have thought about the La Bella 17s but one or two reviews suggested they were a bit more giving and stretchy than Nylguts. I'd be interested in your thoughts on this. Thanks.

Edited by - mikeyb2 on 07/19/2016 06:37:16

Joel Hooks - Posted - 07/19/2016:  07:29:08

quote:

---

Originally posted by mikeyb2

 

Thanks, the Super sets don't seem to be available here, other than ukulele sets. So it's New Nylgut( not sure if that's what they might be marketed as here). It's a question of wound or unwound 4th( not red), and as mentioned about wound strings fraying and not lasting as long, I think I'll opt for the all Nylgut set which is coded as 5B.

 

Sorry Joel, must have been writing my post as you were writing yours. I have thought about the La Bella 17s but one or two reviews suggested they were a bit more giving and stretchy than Nylguts. I'd be interested in your thoughts on this. Thanks.

---

I could be wrong but I think the idea is that one who is used to playing on wire strings will try to replicate that hard non elastic feeling with nylon.  So the goal tends to be the heaviest and thickest strings that they can find.

Fact is, a nylon strung banjo is not the same and requires a completely different attack.  Additionally, the modern "old time" banjos being made today with very short scales, middle of the head bridge placement and "scoops," are all design elements to counteract the natural shrillness and overtones of wire strings.  They work great for that, but tend to be muddy and lack volume and separation with nylon (my opinion only).

If you simply toss nylon on your banjo and play as normal you will not get great results.  Nylon requires a super light bridge (all maple or pine) of a very small design otherwise the banjo will be muted and dull in tone.  If you play over the neck or "scoop" with wire then you will want to play just in front of the bridge with nylon.

You my not like the #17s, many don't.  But they are my favorite.  The old versions were of a softer non rectified nylon, the new ones are much harder.

rudy - Posted - 07/19/2016:  07:36:54

Hi Joel,

Depending on style of play and what you're looking for I can totally agree with your opinion.  I do think your comment about Aquila's marketing is most likely incorrect, though.  Aquila went to a solid 4th and then switched to a wound 4th later with no difference in price.  If maximizing profit was their reasoning they wouldn't have opted to change back to a wound 4th.

Regarding Labella 17's, I've had a few sets and felt that they were miles ahead of the old LaBellas.  Not a bad string set at all.