chuckv97 - Posted - 07/08/2016:  03:34:07

Yeah, so why don't musicians get engineering wages?! .....oh, I forgot, the arts put you just above the poverty line. haha.
Tony Trischka put a tabbed-out Bach Invention in his 1970's "Banjo Songbook".
Jens Kruger, as well as BHO member Laurence Diehl, have done excellent video performances of the first cello suite prelude.

steve davis - Posted - 07/08/2016:  06:14:02

quote:

---

Originally posted by Rawhide Creek

 

quote:

---

Originally posted by steve davis

 

I welcome a thorough theoretical discussion on the whys and hows of the identicality of all keys.

---

It so far appears you cannot even deal with the question of the difference(s) between the keys of G major and G minor.  

So much for your notion of a "thorough theoretical discussion" and "identicality".

---

There is "identicality in all tunes weritten in a minor key,Russ.Just as there is "identicality" in all tunes written in a major key.That's what makes transposing "positionally" so extremely simple.

So much for your dismissal of what I've said.

Which banjo or fiddletunes are written in a minor key?

Edited by - steve davis on 07/08/2016 06:16:15

Banjophobic - Posted - 07/08/2016:  06:50:49

Tunes in a minor key are very plentiful. A few that come to mind are Jerusalems Ridge, cold Frosty Morn, lonesome Fiddle blues, Oopik Waltz, Kentucky Mandolin, Dusty Miller,southern flavor, shady Grove, Swallow Tail Jig, Crossing the Cumberlands, EMD, etc. that's a very small list of the top of my head. I'm sure I am leaving out a ton.

If you talk to serious fiddle"heads" they will be able to produce a ton more.

chuckv97 - Posted - 07/08/2016:  07:10:16

Earl's "Nashville Blues". Here's a challenge I've thought of doing - I don't like retuning, so I want to play it in G tuning and change the key from d minor to either g minor, e minor ,or a minor. Think it's possible without losing the essentials of the tune?

Edited by - chuckv97 on 07/08/2016 07:13:37

steve davis - Posted - 07/08/2016:  07:21:35

Two of my favorite minor key tunes are the jigs Coleraine and Swallowtail.What minor tunes do you like to play,Russ.

Rawhide Creek - Posted - 07/08/2016:  10:28:11

quote:

---

Originally posted by steve davis

 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Rawhide Creek

 

quote:

---

Originally posted by steve davis

 

I welcome a thorough theoretical discussion on the whys and hows of the identicality of all keys.

---

It so far appears you cannot even deal with the question of the difference(s) between the keys of G major and G minor.  

So much for your notion of a "thorough theoretical discussion" and "identicality".

---

There is "identicality in all tunes weritten in a minor key,Russ.Just as there is "identicality" in all tunes written in a major key.That's what makes transposing "positionally" so extremely simple.

So much for your dismissal of what I've said.

Which banjo or fiddletunes are written in a minor key?

 

---

You continue to evade answering (twice, so far) the simple question:  The difference(s) between the keys of G major and G minor.

Rawhide Creek - Posted - 07/08/2016:  10:46:35

quote:

---

Originally posted by chuckv97

 

Earl's "Nashville Blues". Here's a challenge I've thought of doing - I don't like retuning, so I want to play it in G tuning and change the key from d minor to either g minor, e minor ,or a minor. Think it's possible without losing the essentials of the tune?

---

Assuming you've been doing it in aDFAD, you'd probably have your best luck out of G tuning in E minor with the 5th string spiked at B.  What do you think?

Laurence Diehl - Posted - 07/08/2016:  10:55:52

quote:

---

Originally posted by chuckv97

 

Earl's "Nashville Blues". Here's a challenge I've thought of doing - I don't like retuning, so I want to play it in G tuning and change the key from d minor to either g minor, e minor ,or a minor. Think it's possible without losing the essentials of the tune?

---

You're stepping on hallowed ground now. Sure, you could play the right notes but it wouldn't sound the same. And people would notice. But normally I'm all in favor of changing keys for fiddle tunes to suit the banjo, who cares if you play Sally Goodin in A or G?

Rawhide Creek - Posted - 07/08/2016:  11:04:06

quote:

---

Originally posted by chuckv97

 

Yeah, so why don't musicians get engineering wages?! .....oh, I forgot, the arts put you just above the poverty line. haha.

Tony Trischka put a tabbed-out Bach Invention in his 1970's "Banjo Songbook".

Jens Kruger, as well as BHO member Laurence Diehl, have done excellent video performances of the first cello suite prelude.

---

It may be Trischka's version that that I heard.  I don't recall if he transposed it or left it in the original C.  Here's one approach:  m.youtube.com/watch?v=BzGFP73jOIY

The prelude of the first suite gets all the attention, I think in large part because of its arpeggiation.  The dance movements seem to be neglected and I'm not sure why--the last movement, the gigue, is very much a fiddle tune. 

Musical colleagues of mine who succeeded, yesrs ago, in earning engineers' wages did so by becoming computer programmers!

steve davis - Posted - 07/08/2016:  13:16:27

Also Dusty Miller and Cold,Frosty Morn.It's so beautifully simple to simply overlay what you already know to a new fret for a new key on a fretted instrument.

Once you know the ins and outs of one key you instantly know the other 11.

Banjophobic - Posted - 07/08/2016:  13:26:51

quote:

---

Originally posted by steve davis

 

Also Dusty Miller and Cold,Frosty Morn.It's so beautifully simple to simply overlay what you already know to a new fret for a new key on a fretted instrument.



Once you know the ins and outs of one key you instantly know the other 11.

---

There are actually 24 keys...small clarification. 

steve davis - Posted - 07/08/2016:  13:33:04

I take them 12 at a time to preserve indenticality in transposing.
A through G or Am through G m.

steve davis - Posted - 07/08/2016:  13:37:26

quote:

---

Originally posted by Rawhide Creek

 

Yes, shutting your eyes enables your pretense.  I'm sure it enhances your fantasies, too.

---

My knowledge and experience enable my pretenses,Russ.

steve davis - Posted - 07/08/2016:  14:19:46

The benefit of closing one's eyes is twofold.
First,it's good to be able to look around while you're playing,but more importantly in this context,it frees you from the distraction of the inlay/dot locations you are used to.
When navigating in C#,for instance the memories of your finger placements for regular C can cause you to misfret.
If you shut your eyes and play in C# you can simply pretend you are in C and fret accordingly without distractions.

It's still a barre to 2 D shapes and finishes with an F shape 5 frets up.This is part of the transposing simplicity I spoke of earlier.

Rawhide Creek - Posted - 07/08/2016:  21:40:28

quote:

---

Originally posted by steve davis

My knowledge and experience enable my pretenses,Russ.

---

Your knowledge seems not to encompass the difference between the keys of G major and G minor.

"Identicality" is a concept not found in the annals of musicology.  Etymology says it is an overwrought six-syllable word that means "sameness".

You "welcome a thorough theoretical discussion on the whys and hows of the identicality of all keys [underscores added]."  But you didn't mean all keys; you walked that back to distinguish between the identicality among the major keys and the identicality among the minor keys.  Why is there a difference in "identicality"?

How is "identicality" represented between the key of B major and the key of D-flat major?

Edited by - Rawhide Creek on 07/08/2016 21:51:11

steve davis - Posted - 07/11/2016:  06:51:13

When I speak of keys I only meant major ones because that's what most people deal with.

Yes,minor keys are only identical to themselves.



Majors are all identical to themselves as are minors.

I believe you are grasping for symantics,Russ.



We changed a handful of tunes over to minors at Jim Chard's big picking weekend.

It was great fun rewriting them on the fly.

Edited by - steve davis on 07/11/2016 07:00:17

chuckv97 - Posted - 07/11/2016:  10:01:50

How about Nashville Blues in D Major, and John Hardy in a e minor? 😎

Rawhide Creek - Posted - 07/11/2016:  11:05:28

Four days ago you stated:

"I welcome a thorough theoretical discussion on the whys and hows of the identicality of all keys."

Is that a true statement or a lie?

If true:

Why is there a difference in "identicality" between major and minor keys?

How is the "identicality" of major keys manifested between the key of B major and the key of D-flat major?

Since you invoke (but misspell) "semantics":

What is "identicality"?  

Is it "sameness" or something else?  

If you cannot define it, how can you discuss it?

steve davis - Posted - 07/11/2016:  11:28:00

I gave you symantics so you would have an actual correction to enjoy,Russ.
As I stated all major keys and minor keys are identical as to how they play on a fretted instrument.
It ain't rocket science...it just is.

Rawhide Creek - Posted - 07/11/2016:  11:36:54

In other words, you lied; you do not "welcome a thorough theoretical discussion on the whys and hows of the identicality of all keys."

Edited by - Rawhide Creek on 07/11/2016 11:39:02

steve davis - Posted - 07/11/2016:  12:45:38

When you play Dear Old Dixie in Eb how are you playing it differently from playing it in G,aside from which fret you start on?

I play it the same.



Theoretical question...Why is this true?

Edited by - steve davis on 07/11/2016 12:46:02

Banjophobic - Posted - 07/12/2016:  08:51:24

I think "lied" is a strong word here Russ. The problem is that Steve is talking about positions and how they relate to transposing songs, a his example of knowing "theory". But you (Russ) are seeking a theoretical explanation, in those terms. When Steve said he welcomes a theoretical discussion his didn't implicitly imply he would be a part of it. It's possible he doesn't have the grasp of "classical theory " to reply the way one would expect in this forum. 

steve davis - Posted - 07/13/2016:  11:48:07

I simply posit a scenario.
When I can play Dear Old Dixie the same in Eb as G why it that?
There must be some kind of cool theory thing that addresses the "automatic" nature of transposing in this way.

When I can successfully "pretend" that all major keys are G what part of theory addresses that.

I commonly do these things so I know I speak the truth.
I don't care if Russ wants to add insults.Being sure of what I'm talking about adds quite a bit of Teflon.

Banjophobic - Posted - 07/13/2016:  17:35:59

quote:

---

Originally posted by steve davis

 

I simply posit a scenario.

When I can play Dear Old Dixie the same in Eb as G why it that?

There must be some kind of cool theory thing that addresses the "automatic" nature of transposing in this way.



When I can successfully "pretend" that all major keys are G what part of theory addresses that.



I commonly do these things so I know I speak the truth.

I don't care if Russ wants to add insults.Being sure of what I'm talking about adds quite a bit of Teflon.

Yes,there is "cool theory" that explains this and that's what Russ wants to hear from you.the easiest way to fix the situation is just say you don't know the theory behind it, which you've pretty much just said a couple times already here in your replies. The crux of this is that this is the theory forum and Russ is expecting that theory discussion you talked about, I think. 

steve davis - Posted - 07/20/2016:  06:20:14

I play something and was curious as to the theory behind it,John.

What does what Russ wants hear from me have to do with anything?

Banjophobic - Posted - 07/20/2016:  07:56:22

quote:

---

Originally posted by steve davis

 

I play something and was curious as to the theory behind it,John.



What does what Russ wants hear from me have to do with anything?

---

It's pretty simple. You implied you wanted to have a theory discussion about it, meaning you would converse theoretically with Russ and others about it. Russ assumed you meant you would be part of that theoretical discussion. 

G Edward Porgie - Posted - 07/20/2016:  12:59:40

Heres the theory, if anyone is really interested.

A major scale always consists of the same note pattern. There is a whole step between nots one and two, another whole step between two and three, then there is a half step between three and four. Four and five are a whole step apart, as are five and six and six and seven. Then you have another half step between seven and eight, eight being a repeat of not one but an octave higher. Alter one of these spacings and you no longer have a major scale. All minor scales are also spaced the same as each other, but it's a different spacing than a major scale.

If a person merely moves up one fret, he can be playing the same exact spacings, just one note higher. Chords will also work the same way. It's why a capo works; the player is artificially moving up one fret, two frets, or however many frets he wants so that he can use all the same fingers to play all the same notes and chords.

Of course, a person can play without the capo and mostly achieve the same results. A few chords might have to be barred, but that's really about all. In most cases, however, without the capo, grabbing a barre chord can be tricky, and in many cases it's easier to change fingerings, change tunings, start on a different string, or just give up and use the bloody capo.

P.S.-- I don't believe calling a person a liar is appropriate for this mostly reasonable site.

Rawhide Creek - Posted - 07/20/2016:  16:44:11

I suggest that you are making too much stew from one oyster.

The fact of mechanical transposition on fretted instruments is exactly that:  mechanical.  The construction of scales, be they major, minor, or other, is not determinant.  Compare, for instance, the need for different fingerings for different scales (major and otherwise) on keyboard instruments.  

Serendipitous mechanics of the banjo (and/or other fretted instruments) is not ipso facto music theory.

Rawhide Creek - Posted - 07/20/2016:  22:24:18

Another example.

This fingering pattern:

i-m-rp
​o-o-oo
o-o-oo
^

on the fingerboard will produce a major scale on any two adjacent strings of a violin or viola, with the tonic at ^ anywhere on the lower string, from half-position on up.

No theory involved; the result is a consequence of the mechanics of the instrument.

5-6-78
1-2-34

steve davis - Posted - 07/21/2016:  06:59:25

quote:

---

Originally posted by Rawhide Creek

 

I suggest that you are making too much stew from one oyster.

The fact of mechanical transposition on fretted instruments is exactly that:  mechanical.  The construction of scales, be they major, minor, or other, is not determinant.  Compare, for instance, the need for different fingerings for different scales (major and otherwise) on keyboard instruments.  

Serendipitous mechanics of the banjo (and/or other fretted instruments) is not ipso facto music theory.

---

Thanks,Russ.I was just curious about any theory that might mention this phenomenon.Turns out one can make a very nice stew with just one oyster(pretending all keys are just G).

I like the repeatability of the purely mechanical.

Edited by - steve davis on 07/21/2016 07:04:38

steve davis - Posted - 07/21/2016:  07:06:24

quote:

---

Originally posted by Banjophobic

 

quote:

---

Originally posted by steve davis

 

I play something and was curious as to the theory behind it,John.



What does what Russ wants hear from me have to do with anything?

---

It's pretty simple. You implied you wanted to have a theory discussion about it, meaning you would converse theoretically with Russ and others about it. Russ assumed you meant you would be part of that theoretical discussion. 

---

I didn't imply anything...you assumed.Big diff.

Banjophobic - Posted - 07/21/2016:  07:44:22

It's pretty simple. You implied you wanted to have a theory discussion about it, meaning you would converse theoretically with Russ and others about it. Russ assumed you meant you would be part of that theoretical discussion. 

---

I didn't imply anything...you assumed.Big diff.

---

You said this:  I welcome a thorough theoretical discussion on the whys and hows of the identicality of all keys. That statement, coupled with you other replies sure did mean that you would be a part of that 'theoretical' discussion. There's nothing much to assume there.

steve davis - Posted - 07/21/2016:  08:03:28

I welcomed a discussion.
I didn't say one way or the other whether I was going to participate in said "discussion".

Banjophobic - Posted - 07/21/2016:  09:10:52

Thats cool-

steve davis - Posted - 07/21/2016:  10:48:09

Whether or not there is a theory rule the identicality of all keys is still intact.

I suppose its also true on a piano keyboard as all keys are built using identical intervals.

The "identicality of intervals" rule.

I only play the truth on my banjos.

Sticks and stones and all that rot.

Edited by - steve davis on 07/21/2016 10:50:58

JoeDownes - Posted - 07/21/2016:  11:21:42

12-TET is a great invention, isn't it?

Rawhide Creek - Posted - 07/22/2016:  14:11:51

quote:

---

Originally posted by JoeDownes

 

12-TET is a great invention, isn't it?

---

I've had my piano tuned to Thomas Young's 1799 well temperament for quite a while now.  The colors and textures are amazing--and of course, cannot be accomplished with 12TET.

steve davis - Posted - 07/23/2016:  04:41:43

What a great feeling of freedom it is to shut one's eyes and play in Ab without using a capo.

bookemdano - Posted - 08/10/2016:  06:41:28

Thanks, Steve for your insightful comments concerning "pretending" - it's a good analogy, because all keys work the same, just different shapes or the same shapes at different fret positions. I play with a group sometimes and the guitarists like to use capos a lot. They will change capo positions almost every song, so as a banjoist, knowing how to play in different keys is nice, otherwise, I would be capoing and re-tuning often. The joke in our group is, "Okay, let's wait while the banjo guy spikes his fifth string... re-tunes... then checks the others..." Okay, we're finally ready!"

monstertone - Posted - 08/22/2016:  11:48:09

The question of the original poster was the value of learning different keys.

While the use of a capo enables one to mechanically transpose banjo licks, chords, etc. into higher keys, without having to think about it (know what you are doing) too much, a lot of times the player becomes lost once they get very far from the nut, ie: playing in Bb capoed @ 3rd fret. Even vamping chords up the neck becomes a chore. One has to think of I IV & V not as G C D but Bb Eb F. That's the easy part. If you want do do an up the neck break in Bb, it would be of utmost value  to know what notes make up a Bb scale!

Now one can argue the legitimacy of the use of a capo until the cows come home. That is not the point. The notes, (real notes) are the same, they are in the same places up the neck as they were without the capo.  

Edited by - monstertone on 08/22/2016 11:56:33

overhere - Posted - 08/29/2016:  08:39:56

The joke in our group is, "Okay, let's wait while the banjo guy spikes his fifth string... has to be done capo or no

steve davis - Posted - 09/02/2016:  06:24:47

The value of knowing all keys is to not be "the one" that people have to wait on to figure stuff out.

Richard Hauser - Posted - 09/11/2016:  07:45:17

I think that some tunes sound better when the banjo is retuned for the key the tune is normally played. Even for "Scruggs" style, there are tunes than sound better this better this way. You can use the open strings more often, and there will be more sympathetic vibration from strings. This improves the sound. In the key of "C", you can capo at the 5th fret and be tuned in standard tuning and play a tune, but to my ear if sometime doesn't sound as good as playing in "C" tuning. I would learn to play in standard G tuning, C tuning, and D tuning.

I used the tune "Farewell Blues" to become familiar with the key of "C". The late banjo great Bill Keith used special tuners which made retuning easier. I had those tuners on my banjo. Retuning to "C" isn't that difficult and shouldn't require these tuners. I never heard a lot of tunes played in that key. But it is a nice change a pace, and rhythm guitar players don't mind playing in this key. For me, retuning to the key of "D" was most difficult and took more time to get things just right. Some tunes do sound exceptionally good when tuned in this key.

I like a "deeper" sound, so I don't like capoing higher up the neck. Playing can be easier, but to my ear, the music doesn't sound as good.

Mooooo - Posted - 09/11/2016:  14:03:49

I gotta agree with Dick...capoing to the 5th fret is not such a nice sound as tuning down to C....I think it's strange that not a lot of BG tunes use Double C tuning, while tons of Clawhammer does. I play both CH and BG, but when I wanna play in C for a BG tune, I usually use Drop C tuning, I guess it's easier for the licks I use. Maybe my next project will be figuring out Scruggsy licks in Double C.

steve davis - Posted - 09/15/2016:  15:50:03

I play in C without capoing or retuning.
I played for a few years with Vaughn Meader who sang just about everything in C.

eljimb0 - Posted - 09/15/2016:  17:10:36

I think there is a special place in heaven for the banjo players who don't need, believe, or use a capo. Close to that 'special place' ... maybe even in back to back seats with them .. the banjo players who don't need to anchor their picking hand anywhere. "I don't need to use fingerpicks" "I can do Scruggs as good as anyone and I don't have a tone ring or a resonator"  .....special subgroups of the same group of players. 

sethG - Posted - 09/15/2016:  17:38:36

Added to that group, those who only play the truth on their banjo, having never to retune all night. Valhalla

Rawhide Creek - Posted - 09/15/2016:  17:54:02

quote:

---

Originally posted by steve davis

 

I play in C without capoing or retuning.

I played for a few years with Vaughn Meader who sang just about everything in C.

---

Poor guy.  Even co-starring with Linda Lovelace (Deep Throat) in Linda Lovelace for President (1975) couldn't revive his career.  (It didn't revive Linda's, either.)

Rawhide Creek - Posted - 09/15/2016:  22:42:47

I play in C three ways:  (1) G tuning, without a capo; (2) G tuning, capo at 5, optional spiked 5th at 10; and (3) drop C tuning, again, optional spike 5th at 10.  I've messed with double C a couple of times but haven't given it any serious time yet.  I think it depends a lot on the song being played and how you want it to sound, ergo, a question of taste.  I'm still most comfortable in C out of G tuning, but I really like the sympathetic sound (and convenience) of that open 4th string in drop C for some songs (and its especially good for some Bach pieces).