seems to me we've heard these ducks fart on the water before! "yawn"
Kevin
If you don't have anything insightful to share and you just return to negative comments, why post anything ?
Like I commented to you in the Banjothon Videos topic, for every one person that ridicules, there are a thousand that care enough to read, share and draw their own conclusions.
Give it up Dave. Debbie Downers strive to make people as miserable as they are. That's what they do. They can't seem to let people enjoy something they don't understand or have an opinion about. Ignore them and move on.
But MUCH more importantly, Tell us more about holding and playing that grand old banjer.
Dave, i can appreciate you and others excitement in believing that there is something special about the old banjos because they were the chosen weapon of choice for our most celebrated and TALENTED musicians, what i am trying to get you guys to realize, is this, 99.9% of what you hear in the old banjo, played by the hero that made you love it, and want it, and makes you want to hold it up to all that will listen, and shout to the world how much better it and your life and mine can be if you just seek out one of the chosen instruments of the gods and strum across there golden strings, and all will be right with the world, NOT! Verily i say unto you, what you thinkust you be playing on and sounding like on the business side of the banjo, is not what is translating and coming across on the other side of the banjo! In other words, unless you have the ability(and most don't!) your like a bunch of little leaguers at a camp where there are some professionals, and you can hold and play with there equipment, and shake there hands, and talk to them, but you are no where close to being able to get that potential out of the instrument, that is if the instrument has it, and again, most are not qualified to say weather or not that said old banjo has it, and that includes me, i simply say a banjo sounds good or it doesn't, i try not to get involved with the different degree's of good that the pre-war or nothing people are pushing! Man if you gonna try and sell this line of "wow did you hear that" get more footage of Jim mills, and charlie Cushman and Steve Huber, and people that actually have the skills to pull all that old tone out of the banjo, i can go to any amusement park and listen to kids run and scream!
you guys just don't get kevin,,, he knows what he knows,, if he don't know its not his fault,,, me and kevin will go back and forth about this pre war mystery until judgement day and he knows it... kevin is the glue that binds those of us that love these old pre wars together. our ying to our yang so to speak . if this is what he believes its is right as an american citizen and god bless us for that..
if truth be known,, kevin lives in georgia has THE golden fiddle,,,, and horns and a pointy tail.
after saying all of that ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, kevin ,, you are still WRONG !!!!!!!!!! LOLOLOLOLOLOLOL
Terry, are you sure you want to be seen consorting with the pre-war anti-christ? It could get you drummed out of the corp! I love that you get me man! Maybe i am going about this all wrong, what i should do is say, I see your video's of Banjothon, and raise you with videos of, (and i know you will appreciate this terry) video's of alan munde playing his Stellings, and Jens kruger playing his deerings, and Ron Stewart playing his Yates, and yes, the Beloved Kenny ingram playing what's this, a RECORDING KING! oh the horror of it all!
Thank you David for all your posts. This is Collector's Corner, for and about rare and desirable banjos, not necessarily about tone, talent, timing, etc.
Jim
(a limited-talent enthusiast lurker)
(Perhaps we need a mod to keep things on topic, much as I would prefer that not be the case.)
thanks warpdrive for setting all us little leaguers straight we all appreciate hearing from a big leaguer
And, Thank you, David Hedrick for taking the time and effort to post your videos over the years. I find them entertaining and informative.....
quote:
Originally posted by warpdrive
Dave, i can appreciate you and others excitement in believing that there is something special about the old banjos because they were the chosen weapon of choice for our most celebrated and TALENTED musicians, what i am trying to get you guys to realize, is this, 99.9% of what you hear in the old banjo, played by the hero that made you love it, and want it, and makes you want to hold it up to all that will listen, and shout to the world how much better it and your life and mine can be if you just seek out one of the chosen instruments of the gods and strum across there golden strings, and all will be right with the world, NOT! Verily i say unto you, what you thinkust you be playing on and sounding like on the business side of the banjo, is not what is translating and coming across on the other side of the banjo! In other words, unless you have the ability(and most don't!) your like a bunch of little leaguers at a camp where there are some professionals, and you can hold and play with there equipment, and shake there hands, and talk to them, but you are no where close to being able to get that potential out of the instrument, that is if the instrument has it, and again, most are not qualified to say weather or not that said old banjo has it, and that includes me, i simply say a banjo sounds good or it doesn't, i try not to get involved with the different degree's of good that the pre-war or nothing people are pushing! Man if you gonna try and sell this line of "wow did you hear that" get more footage of Jim mills, and charlie Cushman and Steve Huber, and people that actually have the skills to pull all that old tone out of the banjo, i can go to any amusement park and listen to kids run and scream!
I've played a number of banjos over the years...some good, some not-so-good, & some truly great...but what do I know?!
There are some wonderful new & newer banjos that would make any picker (good, not-so-good, & great) more than satisfied...so what's all the hubbub about these old pre-war Gibsons? I dunno?...they smell good? My limited experience tells me that, when the stars are in alignment...the rhythm section is locked in...the vocals are right...it's awfully hard to beat a well set-up great sounding pre-war flathead banjer...I guess it's the little things that bring me back.
these old flatheads (for the most part) have that sound,, but beyond that is the mystic,, these are the rare of the rare. flathead granada tenors are rare,,,, flathead granada RBs are extremely rare,,flathead granada RBs in the same lot as earls and sonnys,, there is the rarest of rare,, serial # 1 of that lot,,, there is only one of those. thats why its such a big deal. the first few times i played that banjo i knew it sounded great,, better then anything i ever played,,, but it was later on that i realized just what i was holding,,,, a one of ...... thats why all the hub bub about this particular instrument... sonny told me he thought he got the best one out of the lot as far as sound,,, and i tend to agree,,, sonnys banjo will go right though you and jar your backbone and is so explosive when you touch the strings. #1 doesn't have that response (yet). never got to play earls so can't say there,, but i will take sonnys word on it !!!!
sonny told me he thought he got the best one out of the lot as far as sound,,, and i tend to agree,,, sonnys banjo will go right though you and jar your backbone and is so explosive when you touch the strings. #1 doesn't have that response (yet). never got to play earls so can't say there,, but i will take sonnys word on it !!!!
terry m
I've played them all, except Earl's, and I agree with Sonny too. #5 has the "Earl" sound moreso than #2, imho. #1 was the least pleasing to my ear, but maybe it was because of setup. At any rate, the 9584 batch is indeed rare and special. Our heroes used these banjos because they were the best available at the time. IMO, they still are.
Dave, i can appreciate you and others excitement in believing that there is something special about the old banjos because they were the chosen weapon of choice for our most celebrated and TALENTED musicians, what i am trying to get you guys to realize, is this, 99.9% of what you hear in the old banjo, played by the hero that made you love it, and want it, and makes you want to hold it up to all that will listen, and shout to the world how much better it and your life and mine can be if you just seek out one of the chosen instruments of the gods and strum across there golden strings, and all will be right with the world, NOT! Verily i say unto you, what you thinkust you be playing on and sounding like on the business side of the banjo, is not what is translating and coming across on the other side of the banjo! In other words, unless you have the ability(and most don't!) your like a bunch of little leaguers at a camp where there are some professionals, and you can hold and play with there equipment, and shake there hands, and talk to them, but you are no where close to being able to get that potential out of the instrument, that is if the instrument has it, and again, most are not qualified to say weather or not that said old banjo has it, and that includes me, i simply say a banjo sounds good or it doesn't, i try not to get involved with the different degree's of good that the pre-war or nothing people are pushing! Man if you gonna try and sell this line of "wow did you hear that" get more footage of Jim mills, and charlie Cushman and Steve Huber, and people that actually have the skills to pull all that old tone out of the banjo, i can go to any amusement park and listen to kids run and scream!
Tell you what - - I'll offer you a Gideon's Bible or an original Gutenberg Bible.
Two versions of the same book - - one old and one new. Which would you choose?
You can read the same thing out of either book. Which would you want ?
There's something to be said for antiquity and historicity that transcends "new".
Tell you what - - I'll offer you a Gideon's Bible or an original Gutenberg Bible.
Two versions of the same book - - one old and one new. Which would you choose?
You can read the same thing out of either book. Which would you want ?
That comment actually nails the issue. If I'm paying and I want the Bible to read, the Gideon is fine. If I have the money and am a collector, I jump on the Guttenberg. Users/players and collectors are different species. If I'm really wealthy (yeah, right), it doesn't matter whether I'm a collector or a user/player, I buy the most valuable item.
There are so many humanistic elements at play here that it is really a discussion for a Philosophy thread. If my basement junk shelf yielded an item that someone wanted to give me 400k for, and I had no desire for it, I would sell it extremely fast. Conversely, my dad's frayed and worn depression era jacket could not be purchased for any price, no matter how much I needed the money. I say, let the free market have its way, and I leave you with some wisdom from Proverbs 15.1- A soft answer(or in this case, comment) turneth away wrath.
seems to me we've heard these ducks fart on the water before! "yawn"
Kevin
If you don't have anything insightful to share and you just return to negative comments, why post anything ?
Like I commented to you in the Banjothon Videos topic, for every one person that ridicules, there are a thousand that care enough to read, share and draw their own conclusions.
David
I know we aint allowed to discuss anything political here, but it seems the only thing fitting is a recent John McCain quote..
When I first started playing I visited a well known store looking to upgrade from my first beginner banjo. I had a price point I could reach to and played many instruments. I went to another room to look at cd's and instructional books when I heard this "sound". Someone had been picking every banjo on the wall. Some sounded good. Some sounded great. Then one just caught my ear. It had a sound that I will never forget. Fat bass, great mids, clear treble, quick decay, a little hollow tone to it, also that nasal kind of splat. I had to go back to the showroom to see and hear it close up. TB3 flathead conversion that was a little rough but sounded incredible. If you can't hear the difference that's ok. Many can and strive to own an original flathead for the tone that can be had from one. Many new instruments sound great but the old ones just seem to have a certain "presence". One that I could hear from another room as a newbie with an uneducated ear.
Warpdrive Have you ever owned an original flathead I am not talking about some orphan ring put together but a factory original. Just curious.
Joe
Originally posted by warpdrive
Dave, i can appreciate you and others excitement in believing that there is something special about the old banjos because they were the chosen weapon of choice for our most celebrated and TALENTED musicians, what i am trying to get you guys to realize, is this, 99.9% of what you hear in the old banjo, played by the hero that made you love it, and want it, and makes you want to hold it up to all that will listen, and shout to the world how much better it and your life and mine can be if you just seek out one of the chosen instruments of the gods and strum across there golden strings, and all will be right with the world, NOT! Verily i say unto you, what you thinkust you be playing on and sounding like on the business side of the banjo, is not what is translating and coming across on the other side of the banjo! In other words, unless you have the ability(and most don't!) your like a bunch of little leaguers at a camp where there are some professionals, and you can hold and play with there equipment, and shake there hands, and talk to them, but you are no where close to being able to get that potential out of the instrument, that is if the instrument has it, and again, most are not qualified to say weather or not that said old banjo has it, and that includes me, i simply say a banjo sounds good or it doesn't, i try not to get involved with the different degree's of good that the pre-war or nothing people are pushing! Man if you gonna try and sell this line of "wow did you hear that" get more footage of Jim mills, and charlie Cushman and Steve Huber, and people that actually have the skills to pull all that old tone out of the banjo, i can go to any amusement park and listen to kids run and scream!
Id say its the opposite, if someone has played a prewar that is set up well and cannot tell the difference in it and a modern banjo then maybe they do not have the skills to know it?
I can appreciate both sides of the aisle here. I loved my old flathead when I had it and saw the attraction. It wasn't the best sounding PW but it was very good to my ears. What it did have in spades was the history, patina and mystique of many years of playing by the previous owner(s) and craftsmanship from a bygone era and that was cool. The rim was starting to de-laminate and the gold was long gone but it was special. Saying all that, I have also owned and played some pretty good modern banjos and from a player's perspective have gotten a lot of satisfaction in searching for banjos that fit my idea of the perfect sound from what is out there today. I think where some people get hung up on is that they feel that PW flathead owners are an elitist group and they feel somehow left out. They are just folks that share a passion and are willing to spend their resources pursuing it.
So, in closing, sure it would be great if everyone had the opportunity to own an old flathead just to see what all the fuss is about but that is unrealistic and for the vast majority it is not going to make an ounce of difference on becoming a better player so the best thing to do is be happy with whatever you have and play it well. Neither group is right or wrong.
Plus, as long as you have a good quality banjo, you're fine. You don't need a diamond-inlayed neck on your banjo, just to prove that you are somehow all of the sudden, "better" than others. Earl didn't care about diamonds on his, and his banjo, though we sometimes glorify it, wasn't even that fancy compared to, say, the Deering Gabriella. To him, all that really mattered was not the fanciness, just that he was able to inspire us with his banjo. I think he would say that playing and practicing it, is what truly matters, not how pretty you can make the neck/body/pot/tone ring, etc., look.
Edited by - bluegrassbanjopicker on 02/02/2015 08:17:17
We would all enjoy having a Antique Roadshow experience with our "famous" to fund our retirement or our posterity. But, I see better investment value in people first and things last. I have been enjoying assembling an eBay parts (dumped) banjo with a special engine from Ken LeVan. That wood is pretty pre-war enough for me.
I am glad someone is sane enough to preserve a heritage of yesterday instruments. As I listen to videos, a few sound appealing. Yet, I hear Bela's lament in his USA Today interview. Instruments disappear and are never heard. At least, some make it out of the vaults and are played. Furthermore, Bela and others use modern instruments.
I can appreciate both sides of the aisle here. I loved my old flathead when I had it and saw the attraction. It wasn't the best sounding PW but it was very good to my ears. What it did have in spades was the history, patina and mystique of many years of playing by the previous owner(s) and craftsmanship from a bygone era and that was cool. The rim was starting to de-laminate and the gold was long gone but it was special. Saying all that, I have also owned and played some pretty good modern banjos and from a player's perspective have gotten a lot of satisfaction in searching for banjos that fit my idea of the perfect sound from what is out there today. I think where some people get hung up on is that they feel that PW flathead owners are an elitist group and they feel somehow left out. They are just folks that share a passion and are willing to spend their resources pursuing it.
So, in closing, sure it would be great if everyone had the opportunity to own an old flathead just to see what all the fuss is about but that is unrealistic and for the vast majority it is not going to make an ounce of difference on becoming a better player so the best thing to do is be happy with whatever you have and play it well. Neither group is right or wrong.
The old flatheads sound wonderful. The old archtops sound great. I love my Hatfield. I have heard some Chiefs sound great. The best I ever heard was Sonny on a Stelling doing the banjo medley.
Now he is where only banjo players would be. So you line up Lauren Graham, Elizabeth Taylor, Michelle Pfeiffer, Natalie Wood, and Kim Basinger and get into an argument because one of you thinks one girl is prettier than the other and another person gets mad because others won’t respect their decision. Somehow there has to be a life lesson there somewhere.
yep, the life lesson is called "ask the turtle". The story goes that a turtle spent a month crawling from a lake to an area by a roadside to lay eggs as it has done year after year for who knows how long. One day a passerby saw the turtle and stopped to pick it up because it was obviously too stupid to realize it was lost. So they carried it back to the lake a long way off. When turning it loose a conservation officer stopped and said, "do you realize that the turtle has been traveling for weeks to get to that spot to lay eggs and you have ruined it and the eggs will spoil and any future hatchlings will be lost. Out of your own ignorance in trying to "help" where none was asked for you killed all those future baby turtles"
In the same vein a thread about an old banjo was, once again, ruined and turned into comments about how we are like children and too stupid to realize that A. we can't pick, B. we can't hear, and C.an RK35 is as good as any prewar out there. No one asked for it.
If the thread was titled, "I contend that every prewar banjo made is awesome and all new banjos are junk"...then I could understand some of the drivel but in this case, and many others like it, no one asked for it.
yep, the life lesson is called "ask the turtle". The story goes that a turtle spent a month crawling from a lake to an area by a roadside to lay eggs as it has done year after year for who knows how long. One day a passerby saw the turtle and stopped to pick it up because it was obviously too stupid to realize it was lost. So they carried it back to the lake a long way off. When turning it loose a conservation officer stopped and said, "do you realize that the turtle has been traveling for weeks to get to that spot to lay eggs and you have ruined it and the eggs will spoil and any future hatchlings will be lost. Out of your own ignorance in trying to "help" where none was asked for you killed all those future baby turtles"
In the same vein a thread about an old banjo was, once again, ruined and turned into comments about how we are like children and too stupid to realize that A. we can't pick, B. we can't hear, and C.an RK35 is as good as any prewar out there. No one asked for it.
If the thread was titled, "I contend that every prewar banjo made is awesome and all new banjos are junk"...then I could understand some of the drivel but in this case, and many others like it, no one asked for it.
Ask the turtle, that's my take on it anyway.
You said that so much better--and nicer-- than I ever could have, Kurt.
the sad fact of it all is ,,there are just not enough pre war flatheads for everyone to have one.
elite group? naw.. passionate? yes,, close minded? not always.. in a dark room with 5 killer late model banjos and 5 killer pre-wars there will not be but maybe 1 out of a 100 that would score 100% identifying the instruments
good sounding banjo is a good sounding banjo regardless of age make or cost... that leaves a little sour taste in my mouth but its as truth as truth can be.
In the late 70s, I took a few banjo lessons from Dave O. in Greensboro, NC ... he owned this granada then and let me pick it. I was too new to banjos at the time to appreciate what it was. Wish I had a time machine !!
I find it really amusing that many people here who put down those who appreciate a good pre-war flathead make statements such as I have owned 20-50 or 100 banjos in my career and I don't see the hype in a pre-war. Well I had my first flathead when I was 19 and never needed another banjo for 30 years that saved me a lot of aggravation and endless searching for the sound I was looking for and these people still have never owned a real pre-war flathead. You can not make a true assessment until you play one in a quiet room and see what really comes out of these instruments it is un matched.
I'm with Reubenv. I enjoyed the whole discussion. I would also add that not only are banjos set up differently to emphasize different elements of sound, but the physical aspects of hearing and nervous system's interpretation of those messages varies between people, so that what is experienced as pleasurable or appreciated varies from person to person. Those perceptual variations will have an effect on which instrument sounds "best." Beauty is in the ear of the beholder.
Well I was uptown Burlington this morning and stopped by to see Ed at Lowe's Vintage Instruments. We talked about the Granada for a bit and he asked if I wanted to pick it. Well he didn't have to say it twice but I didn't even bring picks but he let me borrow some of those as well. He's always been the nicest guy when I come into the store and I really appreciate him letting me pick this banjo. I highly recommend you swing by the store and check out his nice collection of instruments and supplies. Ed and his son are both super nice people and I am glad his store is so close for me to swing by from time to time and see what new items have come in. I'm attaching a pic that Ed took on my phone of me picking this rare banjo.
I was at Lowe's Vintage Instruments when Chad was there today. I had the chance to hear him play Ed's Granada as well as pick it some myself. What a banjo! Chad did a fantastic job with a variety of Scruggs stuff and was able to pull some great tone out of that banjo. The difference in tone and volume behind the banjo vs. being out in front was rather surprising. This Granada was really playing to a spot about 5-7 feet out in front as it was rather sedate behind, but super present out in front with that sweet, honking Granada tone. One of the top banjos I've ever played.
Ed Lowe and his son Will are great guys. I felt very welcomed and they encouraged us to play whatever we could get our hands on which made for a really enjoyable visit. I highly recommend that you visit Lowe's Vintage Instruments if you are in the area. They have 8-10 excellent banjos on the wall and dozens of vintage and new guitars. A must see if you're within driving distance of Burlington, NC.
I was at Lowe's Vintage Instruments when Chad was there today. I had the chance to hear him play Ed's Granada as well as pick it some myself. What a banjo! Chad did a fantastic job with a variety of Scruggs stuff and was able to pull some great tone out of that banjo. The difference in tone and volume behind the banjo vs. being out in front was rather surprising. This Granada was really playing to a spot about 5-7 feet out in front as it was rather sedate behind, but super present out in front with that sweet, honking Granada tone. One of the top banjos I've ever played.
Ed Lowe and his son Will are great guys. I felt very welcomed and they encouraged us to play whatever we could get our hands on which made for a really enjoyable visit. I highly recommend that you visit Lowe's Vintage Instruments if you are in the area. They have 8-10 excellent banjos on the wall and dozens of vintage and new guitars. A must see if you're within driving distance of Burlington, NC.
Alan
Excellent observation, that is precisely what I sensed when several people were playing it at Huber's shop after Steve had a chance to do some set up work on it.
Behind it, it was okay, but away....... it is exceptional. Sonny's Granada is much the same.
I've been away from this thread because of the vituperation, but checking in today, I was struck by davepick5's comment about "behind" and "away".
I earnestly believe every banjo is like that. All great instruments are probably like that. Some of an instrument's "power" is how it makes the player feel -- how it enables or facilitates the player's artistry. Sonny spoke to that years ago when interviewed about giving up the mahogany pre-war Rocky Top banjo for the Granada. He said he was able to feel and do things differently with the Granada.
To others, it's the sound of the audience/listener. Some banjos excel at this. Of course this is HUGELY influenced by the performer's talent too, but you get my drift.
For instance, I had the pleasure of trying out all of Jim Mills' banjos from the Hide Head Blues CD. To me as a player, they each had definite differences. Jim of course demonstrated on each, and to me as a listener they all sounded quite the same (hugely due to Jim's talent/technique of course).
The most pleasing banjo that I own to pick on is the VEGA Sonny Osborne model, honest!!! When I pick along with Foggy Mountain Banjo it feels and sounds like I am "right there"! Yet to listeners, it just doesn't "carry" like good Mastertones. In fact a very experienced picker said he thought my old 40 hole Style 6 sounded much better at a distance than the Vega.
Of course, I don't believe anyone should pay big money for an instrument that doesn't make them feel good when they play it. But that's half the story!! You should also love it when someone else plays it well.
I think once a banjo reaches a certain level of excellence, the final degrees of "I must have this" come from how a banjo feels to the picker.
Chad, thats a great pic of you with the Banjo! Glad you got to pick it and it made me happy reading your post and seeing your pic! Wish i was closer to that part of the country, so i could run over and see it!
Davepicks5, what a great observation about prewars and banjos in general. Its good to play them and also sit away at various distances and listen. You have a great ear for this b/c you have alot of experience around the banjos and listening to how they project.
sonny told me years ago that good banjos project in a cone pattern,, and the real good ones are in the 6 to 8 feet to sweet spot out front. you can feel it in your body when they are hitting like that but the out front sound is where the rubber meets the road.
The owner told me that he was going to keep it for a little while. I offered $5000 cash myself but the response was just laughter. I tried. But it sounds like it can be sold at the right price. It felt real good to play and sounded great. Like the other original flatheads I've played. Even my wife could tell the difference between it and all the other banjos I played there. Just a powerful yet crisp sound no matter how or what I played. I played it about 45 minutes.
I finally made it by today to see and play this real piece of history. What a treat ! They are really nice to you there and seem glad to share anything they have and encourage you to play any of their fine collection. I also got to play my first pyramid banjo, which I had been wanting to try. Many great instruments there. Definitely worth a visit !
