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Aaron Thomas - Posted - 10/27/2014: 05:43:32
I am thinking about trying a Remo Renaissance head on my flathead banjo.
I am currently using a Remo Frosted Top head.
Has anyone tried this?
If so, how did you like the sound?
What differences did it make?
BDCA - Posted - 10/27/2014: 05:59:06
I use a Rennassaince head on all my flat head tenors and 5 sting open backs. I prefer the warmer tone and the better bass. It is the thinnest head made and stretched a lot after installing. You MUST keep the head really tight. 94 on a drum dial as oppose to the 91 or so most people prefer for frosted heads. That is truly tight.
Cya!
Bob
Edited by - BDCA on 10/27/2014 05:59:36
Aaron Thomas - Posted - 10/27/2014: 07:02:57
I thought maybe it would give more of an old skin head kind of sound?
BDCA - Posted - 10/27/2014: 07:56:39
It is definitely warmer and is the head of choice for most OT banjo makers..
Cya!
Bob
grm405 - Posted - 10/27/2014: 08:01:05
I have done this, then removed it after a couple of years. Too warm for my Gold Star. Works fine for my Tubaphone.
Gerry
OldPappy - Posted - 10/28/2014: 06:42:33
It depends on what you want. I am guessing you are a finger picker by looking at your avatar picture.
The Renaissance has a more mellow tone, but like someone said above they do stretch a lot.
I use a lot of the Renaissance heads on open back banjos set up for Clawhammer, but almost always use a Remo Weather King, or 5 Star head on banjos set up for bluegrass finger picking.
The last banjo I built had an experimental tone ring intended to create a louder open back banjo for OT.
It is an open back setup for Clawhammer, but with a much heavier tone ring than any other OT banjo I have built. Not as much mass as a cast tone ring like the Flat Tops, but quite a bit more than most tone rings found in such a banjo.
It is a 12" rim, and I needed a low crown head for this one. I couldn't find a 12" Low Crown Renaissance head, so I used a Remo Frosted Top Weather King, and that banjo, if it is not played with a light touch, is the loudest open back banjo I have ever played.
I am convinced that Weather King Head was a big contribution toward that volume.
So, if you want a more mellow tone give a Renaissance a try, but if you want your banjo to be capable of more volume go with either a 5 Star, or a Weather King. With those, I don't know if it matters much if the frosting is on top or bottom.
prewartb3 - Posted - 10/28/2014: 06:56:48
I picked up a 11" Renaissance Diplomat Head from American Made Banjo a while back. The sound IMO is in-between a typical frosted head and a skin head. A bluegrass banjo will lean toward Bela Fleck style darker tone. IMO the Renaissance head helps darken the inherently bright banjo.
Emiel - Posted - 10/28/2014: 07:02:17
It is very well suited for bluegrass too. The sound will be richer, less dry. It is just as loud as a top-frosted head.
Emiel - Posted - 10/28/2014: 08:12:14
I found one video clip for you with bluegrass playing on a banjo with a Renaissance head. To hear the difference, you should hear the same banjo with a frosted head, of course...
BDCA - Posted - 10/28/2014: 08:27:38
I have used bottom frosted, fyberskyn, clear and Renaissance heads on the same Deering GDL and Gold Tone Masterclone banjos.
I am not a bluegrass plaer and these tests were done on flat head tenors. I prefer a clean almost biting top and with low sustain and excellent growl on the low G (.036)
Fyberskyn - Don't care for it period. Tends to dampen the tone and volume too much, even when properly tightened. I don't like it on my claw hammer banjos either.
Clear Remo - too harsh and not enough growl. Too much sustain. Looks great and shows off the gold plating.
Bottom Frosted - Good over all verging a bit on the harsh.
Renaissance - My favorite which delivers sharp clear highs and deep growling bass. The head must be tight (94 on the DD) or it sounds like crap.
I visited one of the top banjo makers in Ireland a couple of years ago and when he saw the Renaissance head, he told me he didn't like them. Then he played the banjo and was amazed. He had never tightened the Ren head enough to get a decent response from it.
YMMV but I suspect it would product a great tone for Bluegrass, but maybe not like Earl..
Cya!
Bob
KLR - Posted - 10/28/2014: 08:53:08
I've never tightened a head to a crazy degree, just past finger tight, and a bit. How's that for scientific? 
Maybe I'll get one of those drum dials and see what's going on. Or do that ruler/coin trick, however that works. It's described on this forum somewhere. Most of my banjos have Renaissance heads. One of them broke while I was putting it on, which makes me a bit wary of overdoing things. That, and all my banjos are oldies, were they designed to be brutally tight? But you tighten the heads up on your Paragons and Paramounts, right, Bob? So I should probably just dive in, particularly with my new Paramount, which isn't really delivering the goods tone wise as of yet.
The other thing about Paramounts is the dinky heels, which are prone to cracking, some time here I plan to shim up the contact between the heel and flange a bit, as suggested on this board. Apparently Bernunzio do this when setting them up. So perhaps that will help with my Style X a bit. It needs something more. Just ordered a Cloudy head, will see if that helps too.
BDCA - Posted - 10/28/2014: 09:16:05
Since the Renaissance head is the thinnest made, I am not sure if there is significantly more stress on the banjo. maybe an engineer could chime in but if a thinner string has high tension on it, I assume there will be less tension than a lower string tightened the same amount.
94 is not "crazy tight" for a Ren head. There doesn''t appear to be any more stress on the banjo than with the other heads, which I crank to 91 or so.
I recently purchased a banjo which had a Renaissance head installed by the maker. I was having problems getting it tight enough and it bottomed out at the neck. I removed it and it turned out to be defective. Happens. I have installed dozens of Ren heads and never broken one.
Cya!
mijknahs - Posted - 10/28/2014: 10:11:21
How about the Remo White Suede? I heard they sound similar to a hide head and don't stretch a lot like the Renassance heads. You can get them from Elderly Instruments.
Leslie R - Posted - 10/28/2014: 15:36:12
I have a 1925 Vega Electric. It came with an opaque, transluscent head that has the faintest hint of tan or light brown to it. Not a mark on the head though. Were some Renaisance heads unlabeled? If its not that, then I wonder what it could be.
BDCA - Posted - 10/28/2014: 16:03:24
Yes you have a Renaissance head, sometimes called an Elite head. Many old time makers order them with no logo for a better traditional look.
Make sure it is sufficiently tight to get the most out of it.
Cya!
Bob
Leslie R - Posted - 10/28/2014: 16:32:19
This is starting to make sense. To be honest, I've been disappointed with the sound. I checked the tension with A drum dial. I readings of 89 - 90, all the way around. Guess what's about to happen.
I have a feeling it's about to get much better.
BDCA - Posted - 10/28/2014: 17:17:38
I would crank to a 92 and see how you like the sound. The go up in smaller increments to a max of 94. I think you will find you have a "new" banjo.
Cya!
Bob
Leslie R - Posted - 10/28/2014: 18:35:38
I think I might have busted the head or something. I'm getting 94 readings, except in the back. 9 brackets in the back stay at 90 - 91, although the tension hoop is actually pulled down a tad lower in that area. Unless there is some phenomena I'm not aware of, I must have busted the head somehow. I don't know if this matters, but it is a 12 inch head.
Edited by - Leslie R on 10/28/2014 18:38:20
Dan Drabek - Posted - 10/28/2014: 20:55:27
You'll need to take the head off and examine it. If the head is split in a hidden place, you'll never get it to sound optimal. If it's not split, re-mount it and try again.
DD
BDCA - Posted - 10/28/2014: 21:45:31
I would have started with a 92 with the 12 inch head and let it settle then tighten 1/8 turn every few days. Sounds like it may have pulled out of the "flesh hoop" Check and make sure the hoop hasn't bottomed out at the neck.
Cya!
Bob
Leslie R - Posted - 10/29/2014: 06:40:35
I think you are right. Something definitely happened. Now it buzzes and rattles on each string. I probably won't get a chance to look at it till next week. I did even out the tension hoop though. And I do have a 12 inch Renaisance head I was going to use on another project, if this one is not fixable.
Two Coons - Posted - 10/29/2014: 12:28:17
I recently put a Renaissance head on a Crafters of TN banjo. I have been playing the new head about a month and I'm not sure if I like it or not! It is definitely not as loud/powerful as a 5 Star frosted, but it gives some tones that I like. It seems cleaner soundwise up the neck, and still maintains a good bass in the lower positions. I tightened it to 93 on a Drum Dial, but really didn't like that, so I just let it settle back to 92, which seems optimal to my ear.
A good friend put a Renaissance head on a Gibson, and I was very impressed with that tone (which is what motivated me to give it a try). I don't have the level of improvement he had-his banjo didn't seem to drop in power quite as much as mine (may be a tone ring difference). For playing at home, I like it-for playing in a jam or group setting, I think it loses too much.
Ken LeVan - Posted - 10/29/2014: 15:11:57
First of all, The "Elite Amber" sold by Stewmac is identical to the Remo Renaissance.
I have been using these now for almost 3 years, and I like them very much. I think they have a greater complexity of sound and is more expressive than the frosted ones. I like expressive sound quality a lot, and it's what I aim for in my banjos
I make banjos for both OT and bluegrass, and cut my teeth on tubaphones and a 1927 Granada archtop, which is very snappy. I find that the Elite amber helps the archtop come back down to earth, and it looks good, too.
I have found that these heads can really "cut", as well. They have become my "go-to" heads.
If you want a really "clanky" sound, these will not do it - they are more "ringy" with a better low end. It's impossible to explain this in "word pictures".
I have made a lot of sound files, and I will have to check back through and see if I have any comparisons of frosted vs amber.
You can go on my website levanbanjos.com, go to the "tone ring" section and listen to sound files of various banjos with amber heads if you want. All the sound files have amber heads except for a few clawhammer ones recorded by John Miller, which have a skin head.
You will see that with a light banjo, they sound "poppy", with a heavy banjo, they sound solid but expressive, and I will stick out my neck and say that with an archtop, they sound more like a flathead, but not as clanky.
I posted three files. One is in D tuning in D showing the low range response "Home Sweet Home /Reuben's Train" The other is in A, a little higher "John Henry, the third is Yellow Rose of Texas, clawhammer by John Miller, all on the same banjo, pretty heavy, no resonator, with an amber head.
Here's a pic:
Maybe this will be helpful. At least you get to hear some sounds.
BDCA - Posted - 10/29/2014: 16:22:15
Ken, How tight to you crank them and do you use the same set up for 11" and 12" heads?
Thanks
Bob
Dan Drabek - Posted - 10/29/2014: 16:32:45
I think it all depends on the banjo whether a Ren head will be a good or bad choice. I've always run top frosted Remo and 5-stars. (except for in the old days when I used to remove the frosting and play them bare.
But on a recent banjo, I found I was getting more brilliance and volume than I really wanted. The Ren head warmed it up, made the volume more controllable, and like Ken noted, it gave me a richer, more characterful sound. Less metallic and more tuneful. I would not put one on a banjo that was soft or plunky sounding.
DD
Ken LeVan - Posted - 10/29/2014: 17:35:14
quote:
Originally posted by BDCA
Ken, How tight to you crank them and do you use the same set up for 11" and 12" heads?
Thanks
Bob
Bob,
I have never made a 12" banjo, so I can't say anything intelligent about that, and my scales for 11"banjos are normally in the 27" range with a "normal" bridge position - not out toward the center. As for tension, I tune them up to the usual G# - A, not loose. They do stretch at first.
The archtop pictured above has a 26 3/8" PW scale, so the bridge is a little more centered, but if you think of the"head" on an archtop as the 9 1/2"vibrating surface, then the bridge position is about the same as on a 27" flathead.
KLR - Posted - 10/30/2014: 06:59:38
Picked up a Drum Dial from my banjo dealer, my Paramount Style X with Ren head is 92 all around, very even tension too, not bad for guesswork. I'll shoot for 94 at some point too but started a thread on getting more out of Paramounts in other ways too. Those things sound great, mine's merely good at this point.
Edited by - KLR on 10/30/2014 07:00:53
Leslie R - Posted - 11/01/2014: 10:10:20
quote:
Originally posted by Leslie R
I think you are right. Something definitely happened. Now it buzzes and rattles on each string. I probably won't get a chance to look at it till next week. I did even out the tension hoop though. And I do have a 12 inch Renaisance head I was going to use on another project, if this one is not fixable.
I removed the head this morning, inspected it closely. I got lucky, it was not damaged. I was putting everything back together, got the head on straight and level, put the strings back on. I knew it was loose, but took a drum dial reading, just to see where it was at, which was right at 82 - 85. I strummed the strings. To my amazement, it sounded great. So I evened out everything till I got an even 85 all the way around. That is the best this banjo has ever sounded. I think anyone would be happy with the tone. I tuned it up and have been playing a couple hours now. In this case, lighter tension proved to work very well. It is a 1925 Vega Imperial Electric 6 string banjo. Maybe the Electric tone ring simply likes a slightly loose tension ? Maybe. Whatever the case, I just got lucky, because I was not trying to go for a head with lighter tension.
Emiel - Posted - 11/01/2014: 10:18:48
quote:
Originally posted by Leslie R
quote:
Originally posted by Leslie R
I think you are right. Something definitely happened. Now it buzzes and rattles on each string. I probably won't get a chance to look at it till next week. I did even out the tension hoop though. And I do have a 12 inch Renaisance head I was going to use on another project, if this one is not fixable.
I removed the head this morning, inspected it closely. I got lucky, it was not damaged. I was putting everything back together, got the head on straight and level, put the strings back on. I knew it was loose, but took a drum dial reading, just to see where it was at, which was right at 82 - 85. I strummed the strings. To my amazement, it sounded great. So I evened out everything till I got an even 85 all the way around. That is the best this banjo has ever sounded. I think anyone would be happy with the tone. I tuned it up and have been playing a couple hours now. In this case, lighter tension proved to work very well. It is a 1925 Vega Imperial Electric 6 string banjo. Maybe the Electric tone ring simply likes a slightly loose tension ? Maybe. Whatever the case, I just got lucky, because I was not trying to go for a head with lighter tension.
Great... I have a similar experience with the Tubaphone tonering. It does not need so much tension (any head type) as a Mastertone flathead ring...
Ken LeVan - Posted - 11/01/2014: 15:34:07
I agree with Emiel about the tubaphone - they are responsive to many different setup things.
As for even even tension, a technique used by tympani players, who have to constantly retune their heads, is to rub a little paraffin or a candle around the top of the tone ring before you put the head on. This allows a little slippage to occur which evens out the tension between the hooks.
Leslie R - Posted - 11/01/2014: 16:20:55
quote:
Originally posted by Ken LeVan
First of all, The "Elite Amber" sold by Stewmac is identical to the Remo Renaissance.
I have been using these now for almost 3 years, and I like them very much. I think they have a greater complexity of sound and is more expressive than the frosted ones. I like expressive sound quality a lot, and it's what I aim for in my banjos
I make banjos for both OT and bluegrass, and cut my teeth on tubaphones and a 1927 Granada archtop, which is very snappy. I find that the Elite amber helps the archtop come back down to earth, and it looks good, too.
I have found that these heads can really "cut", as well. They have become my "go-to" heads.
If you want a really "clanky" sound, these will not do it - they are more "ringy" with a better low end. It's impossible to explain this in "word pictures".
I have made a lot of sound files, and I will have to check back through and see if I have any comparisons of frosted vs amber.
You can go on my website levanbanjos.com, go to the "tone ring" section and listen to sound files of various banjos with amber heads if you want. All the sound files have amber heads except for a few clawhammer ones recorded by John Miller, which have a skin head.
You will see that with a light banjo, they sound "poppy", with a heavy banjo, they sound solid but expressive, and I will stick out my neck and say that with an archtop, they sound more like a flathead, but not as clanky.
I posted three files. One is in D tuning in D showing the low range response "Home Sweet Home /Reuben's Train" The other is in A, a little higher "John Henry, the third is Yellow Rose of Texas, clawhammer by John Miller, all on the same banjo, pretty heavy, no resonator, with an amber head.
Here's a pic:
Maybe this will be helpful. At least you get to hear some sounds.
I've got a Remo WeatherKing head that looks just like that on an 11 inch banjo. I've not been able to find out anything about it. It feels very thin, but it's on a banjo, so I can't take a measurement on the thickness.
Ken LeVan - Posted - 11/01/2014: 16:35:22
Maybe someone cleaned the frosting off it with lacquer thinner.
Ralph Stanley legend - Posted - 11/03/2014: 07:32:27
I have an Elite amber head on my 1927 solid Archtop Gibson. I always like the tone they provide. Rich with a lot of bass, very clear tone all round. A great choice 
regards
David
