CEParagon124 - Posted - 10/23/2014:  15:07:04

This little project was first discussed on this forum in the threads "A Family Banjo Restoration" and "Question For Old Time Builders".

I have had, for many years, the Lyon & Healy rim and hardware that belonged to the great grandfather of one of my paternal aunts.

I acquired the neck from a banjo with a broken rim in Dublin, Ireland, via an Ebay auction. Note the 5th string pip at the 6th fret space.

I got everything but the rim in that auction and sold the hardware to a BHO member to recoup some of the costs.

So this is a marriage, a FrankenJo or whatever one wishes to call it. I'm just trying to end up with a playable banjo.

I refinished the 3/8" maple rim and the walnut neck so they would sort of match, colorwise. I used multiple applications of pure tung oil.

Since almost all the nickel plating was gone from the rim and the hardware, I bought raw brass tuners, amber knobs and an armrest from Bob Smakula and an appropriate tailpiece made by a local Birmingham plumber/banjo player.

I was also given a box of spare banjo parts by Andrew Fults from which I acquired a matching hex shoe to anchor the tailpiece and a nice hexhead bolt to attach the dowel at the tailpiece end.

I did have to relocate the dowel up a bit to bring the action down. It was going to be way high if I had used the original hole in the rim and I was not capable of resetting the dowel in the heel.

I also replaced the rusted screws and washers that secured the hex shoes to the rim with brass dished washers and longer screws.

After discussing the idea with multiple builders on BHO, I removed frets seventeen through twenty-two and hand sanded a frailing scoop into the neck. I didn't cut it deeply enough to eliminate the two fret marker holes at the 17th fret space, so I filled and stained them.

I had to shave the headstock down by half so the tuners would fit. I did not have the means to countersink the tuners. I tried, but it wasn't going to work without damaging the wood. I have no drill press.

I tried to find a brass dowel yoke. No luck. So, I used the nickel one that came with the neck. Bob Smakula graciously provided some pieces of scrap ebony and from parts of that I made the two wedges to secure the neck to the rim. I patterned them after the wedges in my Clifford Essex Paragon.

The broken rim that originally held the neck was only 10 3/4", so I adapted it to my 11" rim with an old Clifford Essex nickel dowel ferrule that added the needed 1/4" length.

The end of the fretboard has ended up being quite a long way from the rim, as it originally was mated with a very thick notched tension hoop. The one for this rim is thin.

I thought about trying one of Mr. Rickard's grooved raw brass hoops, but I'm afraid it will not fit this out-of-round rim.

I do have the original raw brass hooks and nuts for this.

As you can see, I have no head on the banjo yet. I've expended my budget and cannot do more on this until after tax time in 2015.

After that, I intend to send the rim to John Balch to have a stained skin head custom fitted.

I have NylGut Classic Medium strings for it.

So, here it is as still a work-in-progress. If I've loaded these photos correctly, the neck and rim with which I started should be at the bottom.

Lots of photos.

Charlie Noyes

Edited by - CEParagon124 on 05/30/2015 06:56:16

		OldUnknownRim1

shane_lxi - Posted - 10/24/2014:  07:42:41

That looks great Charles! I'm glad you were able to find someone to buy the hardware. John Balch has great stuff, I bought a goatskin head from him for my little wonder and it was exactly what I asked for. I know you can't play it yet, but how does that little ridge on the back of the neck feel?

Edited by - shane_lxi on 10/24/2014 07:57:28

CEParagon124 - Posted - 10/24/2014:  08:34:43

Thanks, Shane.

Those parts sold very quickly. No problem.

That ridge was already there and I tried to preserve it when I sanded off the old finish and when I was using the steel wool on the tung oil applications.

I generally only have the pad of my thumb on the underside of the neck. I have moved my hand up and down the neck as though playing. It felt fine. I will probably keep the thumb slightly below the ridge.

That ridge seems to be on many English banjos.

When I first got the neck, all the fret ends were quite proud and definitely would have impeded sliding along the edge of the neck. I do not have a fret file or anything else with which to dress a fret, so I used a palm sander and very fine paper, held it at about 45 degrees and sanded the fret ends flush with the neck's surface.

I could buy a calf skin and attempt to put it on myself, I have the original flesh hoop, but it's rusted. I've seen some of the heads that John Balch has installed, he and I have discussed this job and I'm just going to wait until I have paid my substantial tax obligation next April, then send it to him.

I'll post more photos and a sound file when it's finished.

Given the thickness of this rim at 3/8th's of an inch, I'm hoping to get a nice solid tone out of it.

Charlie

(Please call me "Charlie")

Jonnycake White - Posted - 10/24/2014:  08:49:41

Now that's what you call a V-neck!

It looks great so far, can't wait to hear it.

CEParagon124 - Posted - 10/24/2014:  08:57:35

Thanks, Jon.

Here is another English banjo under discussion in The Collectors Corner Forum.

It appears to have a very similarly made neck.

banjohangout.org/topic/293319

Charlie Noyes

Edited by - CEParagon124 on 10/24/2014 09:03:46

shane_lxi - Posted - 10/24/2014:  11:32:33

I saw that one on eBay, I was going to post it here but apparently everyone already knows about it, lol.

Dan Drabek - Posted - 10/24/2014:  12:01:45

Looking good Charles. Interesting tailpiece. Did you make it?

DD

CEParagon124 - Posted - 10/24/2014:  14:57:14

Dan, it was roughed out and tapped for a screw by a local plumber that hangs out at the same fretted instrument shop I do.

It did not have places to tie the strings, just an open area, so I cut/filed/sanded those in myself.

I wish I had looked at a genuine Lyon & Healy claw tailpiece before I did that, as it should have had just slots within which to wedge a knotted or ball-ended string. I sort of duplicated another Lyon & Healy tailpiece putting in those little scallops.

I only paid ten dollars for that.

I gave it a bit of patina with some apple cider vinegar.

The strings are actually meant to wrap around the claws for one turn, then exit beneath the curled ends and up to the bridge.

There is a genuine nickel plated one for sale on the internet for one hundred dollars. It's a very nice one.

Thank you for the nice comment.

Charlie

mike gregory - Posted - 10/24/2014:  16:39:42

Brief Banjo Poem, in honor of your efforts:

That's cool.
I drool.

CEParagon124 - Posted - 10/24/2014:  20:01:27

Thanks Mike. I guess that was a "Hai".

Charlie

CEParagon124 - Posted - 10/25/2014:  08:55:12

This is an original Lyon & Healy talon or claw tailpiece.

This is how I should have made the one on my banjo look.

Charlie Noyes

CEParagon124 - Posted - 10/31/2014:  07:13:48

One interesting note re' the Clifford Essex ferrule is that the end is tapped for a machine screw and drilling the dowel itself and using a lag bolt was not necessary.

So, I plugged the hole in the perch pole with a hardwood dowel and wood glue.

I don't know if that's a better attachment, but it was somewhat dictated by my use of the CE ferrule.

Charlie Noyes

CEParagon124 - Posted - 05/28/2015:  08:35:52

Well, it's been seven months and I've finally put a skin head on this banjo and NylGut strings. They are still stretching out.

Despite my best efforts at properly marrying this neck to this rim, the action is high. I haven't measured it at the twelth fret, but it looks high.

I put a 1/2" bridge on it.

It sounded "hollow" last evening, so this morning I stuffed a piece of Mr. Clean's Magic Eraser between the dowel and the head at the neck side of the pot.

Sounds a lot better.

Still working on figuring the proper tension on the head. It's pretty tight, but can still be depressed a bit with the hand.

I'll take some photos when we have some sunshine again and try to do a sound file.

Charlie Noyes

Edited by - CEParagon124 on 05/28/2015 08:38:41

Dan Drabek - Posted - 05/28/2015:  09:50:50

Looks very nice Charles. Those old banjos have a lot of character. The neck and rim look like they go together well. 

DD

CEParagon124 - Posted - 05/28/2015:  15:33:30

Here are a couple of pics I made last evening after installing the head.
I stained both sides with Min-Wax dark walnut, the same stain I used on the neck and rim.
These pics were made just after I had trimmed the excess and the head was still drying.
I did do a final trim and now virtually none of the excess hide is visible.
I have never installed a hide head before.
Charlie Noyes

Dan Drabek - Posted - 05/28/2015:  16:51:04

Is that an oil stain you put on the head? I'd be concerned about softening it. 

DD

CEParagon124 - Posted - 05/28/2015:  18:54:17

It is an oil based stain.
There are multiple posts on BHO re' the use of same to stain a hide head with reportedly good results.
That is where I got the idea. I had been planning to use strong coffee.
I am, thus far, certainly pleased with the results.
The head dried appropriately tight and has a great ring to it.
I hope I haven't made a mistake using the Min-Wax.
Charlie

Dan Drabek - Posted - 05/28/2015:  23:27:08

I've never stained a hide head, but if I did, I would think a water or alcohol based stain would be the best choice. You mentioned that the banjo sounded "hollow". I would be concerned that oiling a head might tend to soften it and cause a hollow sound. But I am only speculating. If it's a fully drying oil, then it might work fine. If others do it with good results, I can't argue with their success. But the head is the prime sound generator on a banjo, so I would be cautious about what I coated it with. 

DD

CEParagon124 - Posted - 05/29/2015:  07:20:47

Point taken.

I won't be rebuilding any more banjos, unless another one just falls in my lap.

I have three banjos now, a Clifford Essex Paragon, an old Lyon & Healy I rebuilt back in the 70's and this one which I've cobbled together from squandered parts.

Compared to the Essex with its renaissance head , the other two sound "hollow". The L&H has a mylar head and this latest one a medium goat skin.

The rim on this one one is 3/8" and clad in a brass sheet. The L&H has a spunover rim that is between 1/4 and 3/8" thick.

This one sounds better than the Lyon & Healy.

Still hoping I haven't messed it up with the oil based stain.

Charlie Noyes

CEParagon124 - Posted - 05/30/2015:  05:42:59

Here are a few photos of the finished banjo and a sound file, poorly played and poorly recorded, of Liza Jane based on the playing of Dwight Diller and Bob Thornburg.

There is a false start, common with my playing, and a few poorly struck notes, but the purpose is to show how this rebuilt and cobbled together banjo sounds.

Charlie Noyes

	Liza Jane

RV6 - Posted - 05/30/2015:  07:40:49

Charles,   I think you did a wonderful job on the banjo and I think it sounds good.  Your playing is better than you think.  You should have a lot of pride playing a banjo that you've done such a great job on.

The banjo is a bit brighter than I would have thought being set up with a hide head and Nylguts.  Perhaps the head is a bit tight?  I imagine you'll know more after everything settles in.  Or, perhaps this is the sound you are after.

The only thing that I'd change would be to rotate the head to align the dark "stripe" on the head with the dowel stick.