MrManners - Posted - 09/30/2014:  07:14:39

Bass on the on beat

mandolin or banjo chop on off beat

carter family style lick on both beats

 other supporting licks and runs may be emphasize where ever

this is my guess  of the basic setup,i know the greats add stuff beyond this

what is your opinion on the elements of bluegrass rhythm,

this is something  that folks seem to see differently,i would like to get an'' overall view ''if it is in opposition to mine

Tom

Edited by - MrManners on 09/30/2014 08:19:04

gospelman97 - Posted - 09/30/2014:  07:25:18

Where would a basic banjo roll fit in?  It may not be considered rhythm exactly, but it can certainly lay a foundation for the other instruments and vocalists.  It's the mysterious "drive" that so many debate about and is an essential part of most of the medium to uptempo songs in bluegrass in my opinion.

Edited by - gospelman97 on 09/30/2014 07:27:14

MrManners - Posted - 09/30/2014:  07:38:53

Bryan , myself i would put that under other supporting licks,not much in the rhythm dept.but sewing it together maybe adding background ,and other duties besides rhythm

gospelman97 - Posted - 09/30/2014:  08:18:48

quote:

---

Originally posted by MrManners

Bryan , myself i would put that under other supporting licks,not much in the rhythm dept.but sewing it together maybe adding background ,and other duties besides rhythm

---

That makes sense, Tom.  I just feel that a string of 1/8th notes could be considered rhythm in addition to the boom/chuck that the other instruments are doing.  It feels like part of the rhythm section is missing if a bluegrass group doesn't have a banjo roll on the uptempo tunes.  I think bluegrass is unique that the syncopated banjo roll can be doing a different rhythmic pattern than the rest of the group. Also, the rhythm section is often trying to mimic what a drummer would be playing in other genres of music.

Edited by - gospelman97 on 09/30/2014 08:32:20

Richard Dress - Posted - 09/30/2014:  08:29:25

Tom, rhythm is a great topic.  It is the most important skill a picker can possess and for some the most difficult to master.  Maybe is is more accurate to say it is not the most difficult to master, but it is the most overlooked skill in the banjo world.  

Before getting down to looking at rhythm from a ensemble perspective, I approached the problem from an individual point-of-view.  

Here is my take on it:  youtube.com/watch?v=vdavPLNwhH...p;index=2

chief3 - Posted - 09/30/2014:  09:16:40

The way I look at it, the most important element of bluegrass rhythm is not what each instrument does but rather how each instrument works together. Just as in rock where the bass and drummer needs to work together, in bluegrass it is the bass working with the mandolin chop; the downbeat and upbeat is the foundation. The guitar supports the beat with clear, not muddy rhythm accenting beats 1 and 3 (in 4/4) and providing a crisp upbeat on the strum that primarily supports the singer who follows the beat in how they accent lyrics and in their phrasing. The lyrics of a song, as in poetry, are written with rhythm in mind and a good singer will find the rhythm in the lyrics. The banjo floats behind with rolls, patterns, chops, etc., that follows and accentuates the rhythm in time with the beat. With each musician working off each other the time may ebb and flow a bit but it will still sound tight because the players are sharing the feeling of the music and not just hearing the music. Good bluegrass rhythm is constructed but not mechanically built. Hard to describe but I hope you get the idea.

MrManners - Posted - 09/30/2014:  09:43:02

thanks men
richard i was feeling a shuffleto the work song
,in nashville blues you seemed to me to be showing Earl's rhythm which was on some but not all of the upbeats,so thinking out loud here , maybe a song starts out with a steady beat but once it is known where the melody emphasizes ,the main rhythm guys tend to hit it a little harder there
thanks also chief that is great info also

Kenneth Logsdon - Posted - 09/30/2014:  09:57:03

Good job Richard... Its an excellent illustration of ... BIG time,(the hammer strike) and "little time" the spaces between.. that can and often does vary.... A very difficult concept to explain to beginners and others (non Bluegrass) in the rolls..and its not often (never?) mentioned here anymore like it used to be..



This is the difference between those pickers who "have it" and those that don't.. The "life/feel" and drive to the music.. I read an article many years ago (author, where and date lost in time) That was analizing and describing Earls picking as the absolute mastery of little time..  Dang wish I could find it again..

(not to go off topic or hijack, but on my homepage/jukebox sound files.. listen to Soldiers Joy, the very first phrase on the first banjo break vs the same phrase on the second break closely... Can you hear or recognize the difference?) There is an example of Bluegrass guitar standard rhythm there also..

Edited by - Kenneth Logsdon on 09/30/2014 10:16:24

The Pope - Posted - 09/30/2014:  10:53:45

Listen to Jimmy Martin tunes. Repeat.  

steve davis - Posted - 09/30/2014:  10:58:40

Great rhythm is at the heart of any good band or performer.

You can get away with wrong notes a lot easier if your rhythm is good...and the dancers won't know the difference.

Richard Dress - Posted - 09/30/2014:  11:07:35

quote:

---

Originally posted by MrManners

thanks men

richard i was feeling a shuffleto the work song

,in nashville blues you seemed to me to be showing Earl's rhythm which was on some but not all of the upbeats,so thinking out loud here , maybe a song starts out with a steady beat but once it is known where the melody emphasizes ,the main rhythm guys tend to hit it a little harder there

thanks also chief that is great info also

---

Thanks for the feedback, Tom.  I got though on that point, I see.  It is an extremely difficult concept to get across to those who don't possess rhythm (I am an expert on that unhappy condition).  I used the 'Nashville Blues" example more to illustrate L/R hand co-ordination and control which becomes possible through developed rhythm skills.  I should have picked another clip.  I just started learning the tune and didn't know the off chord was F-chord on the guitar.  My early music learning told me it was probably a C-chord.  My mind overruled my musical faculties and I didn't listen  There is a whole new topic right there:  how words and visual ideas are poor tools for exploring musical space where the ear is the only game on town.  I still have trouble about automatically putting an unwanted V-chord at the end of a line for every song.  I made up a rule early in my career that you always needed a five chord at the end just before the I-chord-- a rule of thumb that works most of the time.  A trained ear is more dependable.

Richard Dress - Posted - 09/30/2014:  11:12:56

quote:

---

Originally posted by steve davis

Great rhythm is at the heart of any good band or performer.

You can get away with wrong notes a lot easier if your rhythm is good...and the dancers won't know the difference.

---

Absolutely.  You can take away any or all instruments but the rhythm guitar and still have a bluegrass band.  The proof of that is watching Mac Wiseman perform solo.  Conversely, you can pack all the instruments you like on stage and it won't sound like bluegrass until you add the rhythm guitar.  Playing good rhythm is much harder than it seems.

MrManners - Posted - 09/30/2014:  11:45:52

i would take one that thumps good over one that can play all kinds of lead but can't give me a beat

Richard Dress - Posted - 09/30/2014:  11:50:40

quote:

---

Originally posted by MrManners

i would take one that thumps good over one that can play all kinds of lead but can't give me a beat

---

Tony Rice, as masterful as he was on lead and rhythm guitar, has spawned a new culture of flat top pickers who never heard of rhythm but can peck away for hours unheard by all the other jammers even when their break comes around.  I think they have a hangout somewhere on the web.  Who needs a silent fiddle break if you have a fiddle player?  What you need is rhythm guitar.

Kenneth Logsdon - Posted - 09/30/2014:  11:55:45

I call it "that melodic guitar".... enuff said... back to Earls mama "if you can't tell what the tune is, why play it?" The guitar needs to set that rhythm and keep it there..

Edited by - Kenneth Logsdon on 09/30/2014 11:58:15

Rich Weill - Posted - 09/30/2014:  12:19:11

Mastering measure-long rolls is an effective way to master a solid, repeating, and flowing rhythm on the banjo.  Some BHO members criticize the notion of a measure-long roll -- or measures at all, for that matter.  But rhythm comes in measures.  Downbeats -- an important element in establishing rhythm -- repeat every measure.  And rhythmic patterns flow in measure-long units.

Of course, a rhythmic pattern must continue across each measure line without stopping.  Rhythm repeats but it doesn't stop.  So each measure-long roll must be connected to the one before it a way that doesn't break the pattern.  The way I was taught to join rolls together to best maintain the rhythmic pattern is discussed here.

Fathand - Posted - 09/30/2014:  14:08:38

Add to your rhythm , a fiddle can also chop or add long flowing vocal like lines and be complimentary with banjo rolls.  One of the beauties of bluegrass is that it all changes throughout the song depending which instrument or a vocal is leading at the time. It becomes an exercise in cooperating with each other. I have no problems with guitar players or even bass player taking breaks providing they perform backup when not taking a break. If you cannot hear the guitar player (or anyone else) on their break (or vocal) then you are too loud, stop playing altogether if that is what is required, it is their turn.

As for measure long rolls, I find that easy and would like to master multi measure long rolls.

MrManners - Posted - 09/30/2014:  15:02:18

thanks all i am actually learning on this one,i guess my trouble with Jimmy Martin is he likes country music type love song themes and i never did ,so i only have that one record .Not saying anything is wrong,just that personal taste kinda thing. I always loved his live shows and vocal tricks,but not enough to buy his recordings . Maybe i will get that old record out and give it a listen.Richard you got me curious about that solo Mac Wiseman,i will try to run that down

eagleisland - Posted - 09/30/2014:  17:47:30

Without diminishing the role of guitar in creating bluegrass rhythm, let me offer a slightly different way of looking at it.

Think of the bluegrass band as a drum kit.

The bass is the kick drum.

The chop - and it can come from mando, bow strike with a fiddle, dobro or vamped banjo - is the backbeat, or snare drum.

The rolling banjo is the high hat or cymbals.

The guitar is there so it doesn't sound like you're listening to a damned drum solo.

I'm being somewhat tongue in cheek here, but only somewhat.

banjopogo - Posted - 09/30/2014:  20:19:25

I'd say all the other aspects have been mentioned except this one except in the kind of vague expression "roll" or "rolling".

So what is actually going on rhythmically in Scruggs rolls?

Scruggs banjo rolls as well as McReynolds Picking on mandolin and the Double Shuffle (aka Hokum Bow) on fiddle (like in the 2nd part of Orange Blossom Special)  are all examples of the musical term "hemiola".

Basically, hemiola is where you take something with a 4/4 or 2/4 rhythm, and play notes in groups of threes over it.

Aside from Bluegrass, it's used in drumming, including African drumming, a little in classical music, a few fiddle tunes, the Byrds 12-string arpeggio... and in RAGTIME BIG time!!!

Two common ways are to do two groups of threes, then a pair to finish it off, or you can do 5 groups of threes and a single note to finish it off.  Either way, the groups of threes in 4/4 or 2/4 time give you this rolling feel that doesn't just sit there but moves the rhythm along very effectively, whether the notes are played fast or slow.  While both mandolin and fiddle can do it some, there is no question that Scruggs banjo is the king of the hemiola rhythm in Bluegrass.

JoeDownes - Posted - 10/01/2014:  00:27:44

Banjo Rolls are not hemiolas. In a hemiola there are 3 notes that are as long as two notes that are heard simultaneously, like this:

There are 4 banjo notes to every bass note, so there is nothing like a hemiola going on in bluegrass.

 

MrManners - Posted - 10/01/2014:  06:00:22

Richard,your concept of the individual melody of an Earl tune being a rhythm unto itself was quiet a light .Most views on accompaniment never mention this.

A while back i ran a post about Earl's view on melodic style,from a neutral stand.Earl was never one to down grade so i knew it would not be much if he did not care for melodics .Any way someone that knew him ,probably Larry Perkins, stated that he thought the Hee Haw theme was cool,but he also said the style lacked rhythm.You all must have been on the same page.

What i am getting is make sure the notes that give the melody it's rhythm a top priority.When i do an arrangement i always have to streamline for strength and this could be used when i do that.

Edited by - MrManners on 10/01/2014 06:01:26

banjopogo - Posted - 10/01/2014:  21:35:59

quote:

---

Originally posted by JoeDownes

Banjo Rolls are not hemiolas. In a hemiola there are 3 notes that are as long as two notes that are heard simultaneously, like this:

There are 4 banjo notes to every bass note, so there is nothing like a hemiola going on in bluegrass.

 

---

You evidently got that from the Wikipedia article on hemiola, which I just looked up.   I was surprised, because I thought there was a duple time version of hemiola.  However, with more searching I found out that there is apparently some correlation between the hemiola  and the tresillo which is sometimes called the habanera.  It definitely works in a 4/4 rhythm as does bluegrass.

Because of that correlation, either I read an article by someone who was confused between the hemiola and the tresillo, and got confused about the terminology, or I misinterpreted something I read, and got confused thinking "hemiola" was the term I was after, when it looks like "tresillo" is a more accurate term for what I am describing.  It's been years since I read the article that apparently got me confused on the term, and articles may have been edited since then.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tresillo...rhythm%29

"The habanera rhythm is the duple-pulse correlative of the vertical hemiola (above).

(in the above illustration, the first one is "straight" and the second is the syncopated accent pattern found in Cuban music, Bluegrass music- and also many Old Time fiddle bowings!)

A statement in this article equates the tresillo with Bluegrass rhythm:

arxiv.org/pdf/0705.4085.pdf

"E(3,8) = [X..X..X.] = (332) is the Cuban tresillo pattern discussed in the preceding [Flo99], the most important traditional bluegrass banjo rhythm [Kei 91], as well as the Mai metal-blade pattern of the Aka Pygmies [Aro91]. It is common in West Africa [Bra59] and many other parts of the world such as Greece and Northern Sudan [Aro04]. Curt Sachs [Sac53] and Willi Apel [Ape60] consider it to be one of the most important rhythms in Renaissance music. Indeed, it dates back to the Ancient Greeks who called it the dochmiac pattern [Bra59]."

Anyway, to put it in plain English, I am talking about rhythm figures in "duple time" (4/4 or 2/4) that have the pattern 3-3-2.  That works out to eight notes... yes, you get four notes per bass note, but the way they are grouped and accented causes an accent on the banjo (or on fiddle or in McReynolds picking) to syncopate, and come EARLY before the second bass thump.

The extended form of this is the pattern in Bluegrass fiddle called the "Double Shuffle" where the pattern is twice as long:

1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1

It's all single notes, no slurs, and while it's in 4/4 or 2/4, the first of every three notes gets the accent, so you get this feeling of triple rhythm even though the background rhythm is duple rhythm, and that gives you this rolling pulse.

In various Old Time fiddle bowings the feeling of threes is sometimes gotten by 3 note slurs.

Double Shuffle is definitely an element Bluegrass rhythm, but on fiddle.   I think I can HEAR the same thing going on with Scruggs banjo rolls.

Are you Scruggs pickers aware of something like this, and if so, what do YOU call it?

JoeDownes - Posted - 10/02/2014:  06:26:08

To my ears the rolls sound more like bluegrass if you accent every other note, even though the right hand finger patterns suggest a claves rhythm. What I'm hearing is TI MT IM TM not TIM TIM TM. I once analysed Scruggs' playing and found out that in all the segments I looked at the notes on the beat where a bit longer and a bit harder than the notes in between the beats.

Banjophobic - Posted - 10/02/2014:  06:41:32

I call it "rolls". This should be moved to the theory forum of it needs to be taken to this kind of theoretical depth. There isn't "one" way to syncopate rolls in Scruggs but many. The player decides when and where to place emphasis and that can shift from roll to roll.

MrManners - Posted - 10/02/2014:  06:48:22

have not seen you around much John.bet you could for real give us some unique ideas on rhythm.Joe is just being Joe,this one is kinda dead anyway.

JoeDownes - Posted - 10/02/2014:  08:27:27

Here's a video of Rob Bourassa explaining the accentuation of every other note:

 

MrManners - Posted - 10/02/2014:  08:55:34

seems like a complicated way to put it together,but a really great overall presentation,to me emphasizing every other note of a forward roll,is easy to comprehend,probably the backwards roll at half speed emphasis is a coincidence,but once you get it going by rote ,the backwards roll view helps you to easily watch your emphasis.I use that thinking in some 4 note pattern

mmuussiiccaall - Posted - 10/02/2014:  09:41:02

here's a visual aid of that video

Sync Accents

banjopogo - Posted - 10/02/2014:  12:58:14

quote:

---

Originally posted by JoeDownes

Here's a video of Rob Bourassa explaining the accentuation of every other note:

 

---

That's interesting, because at the beginning, the description of the forward roll sounds EXACTLY like the 3's into 4/4 or 2/4 thing I was describing-

5 groups of three, plus a single note- 5 x 3 + 1 = 16.   But the every other note accent pulls it back into an accent pattern like flatpicking, or like sawstroking on fiddle.  VERY INTERESTING- thanks!!!!

mijknahs - Posted - 10/06/2014:  13:31:56

Have you all heard Sammy Shelor's interview on this topic? At about 2:00 he compares the band to a drum kit. I like how he talks about playing on different parts of the beat (ahead of, right on, or behind) depending on what effect he's trying to achieve. 

youtu.be/6RI9h-sB7SY

RawhideCreek - Posted - 10/06/2014:  13:57:26

Thanks, Jim.  That's really great!  

Live link:

m.youtube.com/watch?feature=yo...I9h-sB7SY

Edited by - RawhideCreek on 10/06/2014 13:58:52