Brooklynbanjoboy - Posted - 03/31/2014:  08:36:26

The Jeff Place bio note omits mention of his collaboration with BHO member Greg Adams on the Classic Banjo From Smithsonian Folkways:

See:

folkways.si.edu/classic-banjo-...ithsonian

Joe Connor - Posted - 03/31/2014:  08:37:49

Marc, I agree that Michelle Phillips is not a folk legend, but Janet's suggestion makes sense.

One of the things that happened during the folk revival, as you well know, is that many artists veered off into rock. However, they modified rock to produce the hybrid known as folk rock.  One branch of that diversion was Roger McGuinn, who came from the Chicago folk scene, played back-up for the Chad Mitchell Trio and founded the Byrds. Another branch was the late John Phillips, who moved from the Journeymen to founding the Mamas and Papas. Michelle Phillips was there with John Phillips at the tale end of the Journeymen through the Mamas and Papas. This transition is part of the history of both folk and popular music. Some have even gone as far as to suggest that this transition from folk to folk-rock was an example of the folk process in action (e.g., compare the Byrds' versions of Turn, Turn, Turn and Bells of Rhymney with Pete Seeger's versions). 

Ultimately, all of these folk discussions/arguments/discussions boil down to the same issue: what constitutes folk music? Some people have a very broad definition. Some have a very narrow definition. Most people fall somewhere in the middle. Maybe Big Bill Broonzy said it best, "I guess all songs are folk songs. I never heard any horse sing 'em."

As for the Wolfman Jack of folk, it has to be Oscar Brand. He has had a folk show on WNYC radio in New York City since 1945. (That is NOT a typo). wnyc.org/people/oscar-brand/

Edited by - Joe Connor on 03/31/2014 08:52:25

Marc Nerenberg - Posted - 03/31/2014:  08:52:51

Hey, I had nothing against Janet's suggestion. I was just completely puzzled by it, so I asked. And you've provided one explanation. I'm still curious to know Janet's reasoning. I have a great deal of respect for Janet, and I'm sure she knows that.  I'm not trying to start any arguments here.

I do think that when one embarks on a series like this, one does have to define terms of reference. But that's a practical matter - to make the series manageable.

I do think Frank Zappa, John Lennon and Gerry Garcia would all have interesting things to say about folk music - if they were still alive. But, heck, if you're going to interview everyone who might be tangentially related to the subject and have something interesting to say, I think Craig would have to call this his 95th birthday present, because there's no way he'll be close to finished by his 65th!

Edited by - Marc Nerenberg on 03/31/2014 08:53:53

frailin - Posted - 03/31/2014:  08:56:18

Why not just makes this a timeless piece?  If I could figure out a way to broadcast from the proverbial "above", I could send back some terrific stories!  

As well as "what NOT to do."  

Marc Nerenberg - Posted - 03/31/2014:  09:05:49

And I might add that my own personal perspective on this subject might be a little skewed by my personal experience. Being from a very left wing home, I was introduced to folk music from the earliest age, in the early 1950s, when the left wing considered folk music to be "the music of the people" and the appropriate music for spreading "the people's message". It was the only kind of music i listened to as a child.

When the "Folk Revival" happened during my teens, I was happy to see that kind of music being the pop music of the day, and on the radio and television, etc. - but I never considered that folk revival stuff to be actual folk music.

I thought it was kind of confusing that the "folk" label was being applied as a stylistic category, rather than a sociological definition. Most of what passed for "folk music" during the "Great Folk Scare" bore only the most remotest of resemblance to actual real folk music.

And even today, when people talk about "folk music" you have to ask them to define their terms to know what they're actually talking about. There is, in reality, very little actual overlap between "folk music' as music from the oral tradition shaped by many hands over many generations, and "folk music" as a commercial genre designed to sell records.

Edited by - Marc Nerenberg on 03/31/2014 09:08:28

Joe Connor - Posted - 03/31/2014:  09:06:23

Unfortunately, Marc, we are rapidly losing the people who were intimately involved in the folk revival of the '50s and '60s. Pete's death earlier this year really brought that point home.  Pete was the one constant in the folk-music universe from the late '30s to the time of his death. Just this weekend, Joe Frazier, a member of the Chad Mitchell Trio, passed away. Think of how many others we've lost in the last 10 years. 

With the various definitions of folk music, this is a very, very broad topic. You would probably have to narrow it down somewhat to have any chance of doing comprehensive research. Possible narrowed-down topics are: (1) the political folk revival of the '40s and early '50s (e.g., Guthrie, Seeger, Lee Hays, the Almanac Singers, the Weavers); (2) the popular folk revival of the '50s and early '60s (e.g., the Kingston Trio, Peter, Paul and Mary and various other groups and performers); (3) traditional folk (good luck in defining that!); (4) the singer-songwriter movement (Dylan, Phil Ochs, Tom Paxton, Eric Andersen etc.); and (5) the post-revival movement to folk rock (Roger McGuinn, John Phillips, David Crosby, Stephen Stills. Timothy B. Schmidt etc.)

Your perspective is a common one, Marc. It seems that those who saw folk music as the soundtrack for the revolution were some of the ones who had the most trouble with the more commercial acts of the folk revival. I suspect that some of that resentment came from the fact that many revival groups, like the Kingston Trio, were consciously apolitical (i.e., in M.T.A., the Trio changed the name of the actual mayoral candidate, Walter O'Brien, to George O'Brien to avoid having Red Channels or any of the other blacklisters jump on them because Walter O'Brien was, shall we say, a progressive candidate).

I think I have a very broad definition of folk, but I have to confess that when I listened to a "folk" show on the radio recently, I wouldn't have considered much of it to be folk. It seems now, many define folk to include any music played on an acoustic guitar.

Edited by - Joe Connor on 03/31/2014 09:13:12

frailin - Posted - 03/31/2014:  09:21:47

Possible narrowed-down topics are: (1) the political folk revival of the '40s and early '50s (e.g., Guthrie, Seeger, Lee Hays, the Almanac Singers, the Weavers); (2) the popular folk revival of the '50s and early '60s (e.g., the Kingston Trio, Peter, Paul and Mary and various other groups and performers); (3) traditional folk (good luck in defining that!); (4) the singer-songwriter movement (Dylan, Phil Ochs, Tom Paxton, Eric Andersen etc.); and (5) the post-revival movement to folk rock (Roger McGuinn, John Phillips, David Crosby, Stephen Stills. Timothy B. Schmidt etc.) - Joe Connor

Yes.  This (excellent/formidable) conversation is most worthy!  

Just this weekend, Joe Frazier, a member of the Chad Mitchell Trio, passed away. Think of how many others we've lost in the last 10 years. 

But right now, TIME is my primary motivator.  

ramjo - Posted - 03/31/2014:  09:41:28

Another old timer from the NYC area--who also used to have a folk-music radio show--is Dave Sear. A small profile in the NYTimes a few years back began "DAVE SEAR is a banjo-playing folk singer with a past. He taught Paul Newman to play the banjo for ''Cool Hand Luke'' and performed with Mary Travers before she joined Peter and Paul. For 35 years, he was the host and producer of the nationally syndicated radio program ''Folk Music Almanac.'' He's in his 80s now, but I believe he's still active. seararts.com/html/dave_sear_homepage.html

Paul R - Posted - 03/31/2014:  22:10:44

Sylvia Tyson (Ian and Sylvia) had a show on CBC Radio during the seventies, Touch the Earth. Ian is still alive and opinionated in Alberta, and Sylvia still performs with Quartette. An Ian and Sylvia bio was published a couple of years ago.

While we're discussing this, Craig, I'd suggest you include Marc Nerenberg on your list. His knowledge of the genre of folk music he espouses (as well as some personal history with Pete Seeger), and his involvement with the folk scene in Montreal during that era, and his banjo expertise, would be invaluable. And we could add a whole bunch of other BHO members, too.

Didn't Tom Paxton have a radio show in NYC? He was also associated with Pete Seeger (Seeger covered "Ramblin' Boy", and Paxton performed on Rainbow Quest).

Holger Peterson hosts Saturday Night Blues (which I mentioned already) on CBC Radio. He's interviewed lots of blues (and other) performers, and runs Stony Plain Records. There might also be some people still around who ran those small record labels like Arhoolie and Yazoo. They did it for love of the music. Chris Strachwicz? Still around? What about Tony Saletan, who had a kids' folk music programme on PBS in the seventies, and was one of the early Boston/Cambridge folkies? Ry Cooder took a lot of his earlier material from the New Lost City Ramblers, and saw a lot of acts in L.A.

I hope I live long enough to see some of your work!

- - Posted - 03/31/2014:  22:51:22

Gordon Lightfoot.

He is my favorite folk artist and a songwriter of depth and perception. You HAVE to interview him before he passes away. He is the real deal.

strokestyle - Posted - 04/01/2014:  13:07:59

Billy Mathews is quite a character and has a great history in folk music and living the folk life.

Edited by - strokestyle on 04/01/2014 13:08:30

orangikan - Posted - 04/01/2014:  16:03:30

How about Adirondack folk musician and story teller Dan Berggren?

berggrenfolk.com/

Zischkale - Posted - 04/02/2014:  09:32:21

I'm a newbie to folk, but love the idea of the project and would like to put forth my two cents...

1) Folk music forms a part of our culture in one way or another, but that's sort of beyond folk music as a defined genre. My grandmother would sing me a lullaby of "Go Tell Aunt Lucy," and my grandfather on the other side of the family would sing "You Are My Sunshine" or "Deep in the Heart of Texas." But this wasn't folk music to me like Dave Van Ronk is folk music. They were just melodies and lyrics that became portraits of my own personal history, closely tied to that moment as a kid, with that grandparent, and with all the memories associated with it--wasn't really "folk music" to me any more than my dad singing "Stink-Foot" by Frank Zappa was folk music (I know every vocal intonation of that song thanks to his singing it around the house). But those songs my grandparents would sing form the foundation of my interest in the genre of folk music.

I've loved music since I was very little, but "folk music" not until high school, I think. The O Brother Where Art Thou soundtrack played a big role (told you I’m a newbie)—would listen to it with my dad many a work day on my parents’ land. A great version of “You Are My Sunshine” was on it. But I was primarily getting into rock music. Especially 70’s stuff, which often included shades of folk (c’mon, Led Zeppelin III counts for something, right?), but you wouldn’t find me picking up no Peter, Paul and Mary album, or even a Bob Dylan album. It was taking up banjo a couple years ago that led me to bona fide folk music and sort of brought me back full circle to those songs my grandparents used to sing. I’ll always be coming at folk being fully contaminated by rock music, though. I’m 28 now and finding it easier than y’all ever did to be immersed in folk music—the internet’s a powerful tool.

2) Townes Van Zandt was an early one for me, started listening to him in college. In high school I’d listen to Jim Croce, so if he counts, him. More recently Steve Martin, Tommy Jarrell, Uncle Wade and, in a way, Harry Smith.

3) Since I’m new to banjo and most of what I know was learned from using BHO was a starting point, my list includes some regular posters here. They’re way closer to the scene you’re describing, and are the only way I know anything about the scene you’re describing. Mike Iverson comes first to mind because of his tab site (includes a beginner’s version of Go Tell Aunt Lucy that I love to play) and desire to bridge the gap between genres. He has done excellent interviews with modern clawhammer banjo players. Cathy Moore really hooked me to banjo by stoking the fires of my imagination—after a visit to her site, what can’t be played using clawhammer style? Her work is an inspiration just about any time I pick up the instrument—she’s the coolest. Donald Zepp—bought my main banjo at Zepp Country music and it’s the reason I’ve played every day since I got it. The guy has amassed an invaluable list of just about every banjo tuning ever used and gave a cool interview on NPR. Tony Spadaro may have a bottomless well of information related to old-time banjo—not just RSB, but all the posts on BanjoHangout. I haven’t seen a new topic posted, no matter how redundant the question (index or middle? Is it called drop-thumb or double-thumb??), that didn’t include a concise answer from Tony. He’s a huge part of the old-time boards on BHO and the only one I’ve seen who offers the best way to play Clarence Ashley’s roll in Cuckoo. I love Ken Perlman’s book but a typical roll don’t sound near as sweet. Marc Nerenberg is definitely a living folk legend. His performance of “See That My Grave is Kept Clean” never strikes you as a song being adapted to a specific banjo style, it is just pure blues conviction and grit and the instrument just happens to be a banjo. He carries some of that old-time antiquity in his voice, say when he does Gus Cannon, but it doesn’t seem like a reenactment for history’s sake, it is without question relevant and powerful without context. It’s a real shame there aren’t any proper recordings of his playing (that I know of). He’s been around and has hung out with Seeger. He ventured out to the heart of Africa to seek out the ancestral banjo, and found it (how great a folk-tale is that?). Needs to have his perspective filmed. If Dom Flemons posted on the site I’d feel a more personal reason to include him up top, but I think he and his Carolina Chocolate Drops are an absolutely integral inclusion in your documentary. His perspective is unique as a someone who journeys to explore his ancestral history and racial identity through folk. There aren’t many young black Americans who seek out folk music in this way, and I don’t particularly blame them—Dom’s viewpoint is highly important and his essays are excellent. He also just happens to have a fantastic musical vision and can play the hell out of a variety of instruments. And if you wanna get a new generation into Reuben, you might just need to find an accompanist who can beatbox (a seamless addition, I might add).

4) I haven’t read any books on folk, only the writings of rock and roll music critics. I have read the extensive liner notes in the Anthology of American Folk music, which range from enthralling to silly and over-analytical. That collection is the foundation, though. O Brother Where Art Thou’s soundtrack was highly important to me.

5) Please see 3) – one great thing about folk is that the experts are also very often great musicians as well. You don’t see Robert Christgau picking up a guitar. 

Pine Cone - Posted - 04/02/2014:  22:47:41

quote:

---

Originally posted by frailin

Does anyone know of a radio DJ that specializes in folk music?  Is there a LIVING Wolfman Jack of folk? 

---

Check out John Davis, who had a weekly folk music show on Pacifica Radio KPFK in Los Angeles for decades starting in the 1960's. My brother and sisters and I used to listen ever Saturday morning when he had a 3 hour show.  His show probably started in the early 1960's, and I was a faithful listener and a folkie until a girl and a church dance and the Kink's "You Really Got Me" turned me to the dark side of rock-n-roll in 1966.  Luckily the LA folk scene merged rock and folk and I found I could listen to both.

I remember first seeing David Lindley, RIchard Greene and Taj Mahal at the Topanga Canyon Fiddle Contest about 1965.  Lindley played both fiddle and banjo while Greene played fiddle and Taj played banjo. 

I think he is the same John Davis associated with Heartfelt Music facebook.com/HeartfeltMusicKPFK but I am not sure.

Buffy St. Marie, Jim Kweskin, David Lindley, Ry Cooder, Taj Mahal, Sam Hinton, Mimi Farina, Richard Greene, Ian Tyson are all worth tracking down...  Hard to beat Ramblin Jack Elliot, John Koerner, Dave Ray and Tony Glover, but none of them played banjo...

Edited by - Pine Cone on 04/02/2014 22:56:40

Bastertone - Posted - 04/03/2014:  05:06:27

Current but you better get there soon folks that could be really interesting, Guy Clark, Jesse Winchester , the smothers brothers.

Some other good ones, Emmylou Harris , John prine, David bromberg .

frailin - Posted - 04/03/2014:  05:20:30

Excellent!  

Yesterday I began contacting and recruiting the Folk Music Experts (authors, some old performers, DJs, folk festival organizers) to help with the selection of Folk Legend candidates.  Most of them will also appear on camera to help provide background.  Jeff Place, Smithsonian Folkways archivist is already on board.  I will record these folks first.  

Once I've heard back from the final 6 (I have 12 to consider), I'll let you know who they are.  

Thanks again for your helpful input! 

Craig

arnie - Posted - 04/03/2014:  06:20:04

Tom Paley, Tracy Schwarz, Walt Koken (Highwoods Stringband), Gerry Milnes, Bruce Molsky, Tim O'brien,Martin Carthy, Eliza Carthy (watersons), Tony Rice, Norman Blake, Joni Mitchell, Bruce Cockburn, Ian Tyson (watch out he's a case!), Finest Kind, La Bottine Souriante(probably the greatest trad band that ever was in Canada), Ken Whiteley- talk to him (also you can look up Mitch Podolak about The Winnipeg Folk festival artists) about Mariposa Folk Festivals in the 1970s,artists etc. & he is really tuned into the blues community too. Just off the top of my head right now.

Klondike Waldo - Posted - 04/09/2014:  16:15:54

quote:

---

Originally posted by frailin

Does anyone know of a radio DJ that specializes in folk music?  Is there a LIVING Wolfman Jack of folk? 

---

Check out WUMB_FM out of UMASS Boston. They used to be all acoustic folk, less so now but still have some knowledgeable hosts who specialize on Folk ( and Pop folk and Celtic).

As for singer-songwriters,  I'd suggest Eric Bogle as one to check out.

Edited by - Klondike Waldo on 04/09/2014 16:23:18

frailin - Posted - 04/09/2014:  16:58:42

More great suggestions.  Thank you!  

I've now heard from 4 of my 6 on-camera "folk music experts" and they're all a "go!"  Yee-ha!!  The last 2 are proving difficult to reach, but they're worthy of a second and third recruitment effort.  So I'm continuing.  Once I have settled in on the 6, I will let you know who they are.  

As mentioned earlier (in this thread), in addition to assisting with selection of the Legends to be interviewed, these knowledgeable folks will be detailing the career accomplishments and contributions of each (on camera).  They are all highly vetted and, to some degree, legends themselves.  I'm honored and VERY excited to work with each and every one of them.  

Edited by - frailin on 04/09/2014 17:00:34

Jim Cannon - Posted - 04/09/2014:  20:19:10

I suggest that you may want to interview the actor Alan Arkin. He was a member of the Tarriers back in the early years of the folk boom.

John Firth-Smith - Posted - 04/10/2014:  05:53:50

Hello from Sydney Australia --- I saw the Kingston trio in Sydney 1962 ? and then Pete Seeger turned up here 1963 I went to all the concerts = fantastic
I had never heard a 5 string banjo or a 12 string guitar and the fret less mountain banjo he played + coping a log on stage with chips flying out int the audience,he sang a couple of Dylan songs like "Hard Rains" wow a big jump forward for me from the schmaltz that was around then.I had a SS Stewart banjo that I had liked looking at but nobody here could help me to learn to play so I went backstage at a college concert and spoke to Pete and asked how do I learn to play like him he took my address and when he returned after his year long world tour he sent me his red book I still have it.In Sydney there was an American information place where you could borrow art and US History books etc and LP records I remember getting Bascom Lamar Lunsford, Pete Steele,George Pegram and Parham "picking and blowing" on Riverside records + Folkways and many others I just got so into the banjo.
A year or so later Dave Guard came to live in Australia at Whale beach very near to where I was living just North of Sydney I visited him he was very generous with his time he let me play his PS longneck with all the co loured stickers on the fingerboard -- I copied the fret spacing and went home to make myself a long neck banjo I still have it and still play it along with many others
Over the years many have come to Australia at different times from the early 60's Dylan, Peggy S, Mike S, Arlo, saw Bill Keith later and Taj Mahal - loved his banjo on the LP "Old Folks at Home" gutsy and raw.I have lived in New York for three extended periods over the years and of course went to many concerts there.
One person who springs to mind who I never hear about but who I think was great was Derroll Adams loved his playing ,voice and his songs ----
There are so many great musicians who have been part of my life and I love them all.
Cheers from Down Under -----
John

JanetB - Posted - 04/14/2014:  09:04:46

quote:

---

Originally posted by frailin

Possible narrowed-down topics are: (1) the political folk revival of the '40s and early '50s (e.g., Guthrie, Seeger, Lee Hays, the Almanac Singers, the Weavers); (2) the popular folk revival of the '50s and early '60s (e.g., the Kingston Trio, Peter, Paul and Mary and various other groups and performers); (3) traditional folk (good luck in defining that!); (4) the singer-songwriter movement (Dylan, Phil Ochs, Tom Paxton, Eric Andersen etc.); and (5) the post-revival movement to folk rock (Roger McGuinn, John Phillips, David Crosby, Stephen Stills. Timothy B. Schmidt etc.) - Joe Connor

 

---

Defining folk music by eras and functions is wise.  If your interviews have the perspective of folk music as an evolving continuum it will help me to put a handle on its immensity.

Folk rock as a category is last on the list above, which is where The Mamas and Papas fit in, to answer Marc's question.  That was my growing up period, and some of the popular music of that time became my "folk music."   Joan Baez was a favorite, too, as well as Peter, Paul and Mary, the Beatles, and the Monkees.

Preceding folk rock, the best of the folk songs I grew up with didn't have authors attached to them.  And the farther in time you can go back, Craig, the better.  Your project is most admirable!