schlange - Posted - 02/27/2014:  14:11:02

As some of you may know, I recently stole the clawhammer TOTW idea to use over on the Scruggs forum (see the index here). I've had a lot of positive response from doing this, so first, I want to say thanks to the clawhammer crew for inspiring me!

Second--I'm wanting to know if you think there would be any interest in "expanding" the current clawhammer TOTW setup so each tune includes more information on how to play the tune. Members could still do the song research like they've always done, but I could flesh it out with learning materials like BIAB backing tracks, and we could find a teacher who could do a video lesson that we sell for a modest price so it's worth the teacher's time. Something to help players who want to learn the tunes but need more direction/education.

Let me know what you think. If there isn't much support for the idea that's fine, but if it's anything like the Scruggs forum lots of folks are looking for this stuff, and I don't want to pass on an opportunity to encourage folks to play more banjo.

bornold - Posted - 02/27/2014:  14:21:09

I Like the clawhammer TOTW how it is. (IMHO) But the things suggested above wont hurt the TOTW. So If everybody is happy, ONWARD MARCH!

EggerRidgeBoy - Posted - 02/27/2014:  14:23:06

quote:

---

Originally posted by schlange

As some of you may know, I recently stole the clawhammer TOTW idea to use over on the Scruggs forum (see the index here). I've had a lot of positive response from doing this, so first, I want to say thanks to the clawhammer crew for inspiring me!

Second--I'm wanting to know if you think there would be any interest in "expanding" the current clawhammer TOTW setup so each tune includes more information on how to play the tune. Members could still do the song research like they've always done, but I could flesh it out with learning materials like BIAB backing tracks, and we could find a teacher who could do a video lesson that we sell for a modest price so it's worth the teacher's time. Something to help players who want to learn the tunes but need more direction/education.

Let me know what you think. If there isn't much support for the idea that's fine, but if it's anything like the Scruggs forum lots of folks are looking for this stuff, and I don't want to pass on an opportunity to encourage folks to play more banjo.

---

An interesting idea that I am open to, but there are a few differences between the clawhammer and bluegrass Tunes of the Week.  I think you post all of the bluegrass tunes (correct me if I'm wrong), while in the clawhammer forum we have different volunteers every week, typically organized into three or four months schedules.  Some volunteers prepare for weeks, others decide upon a tune the day before posting - both approaches work fine.  It would add another layer of coordination to try to get each volunteer to select and commit to a tune far enough in advance to get the backing tracks and instructional video posted at the same time (of course, I guess those could be added to the thread a few days later if necessary, sometime in the week before the next tune is posted).

But I'll be interested to see what others think.

Edited by - EggerRidgeBoy on 02/27/2014 14:23:55

dbrooks - Posted - 02/27/2014:  14:54:03

I like the way you're thinking, Eric.  Always looking for a way to improve things here.

Perhaps you could start with a tune of the month as a pilot.  I have this feeling that the clawhammer tunes and arrangements vary more than many bluegrass or Scruggs-style arrangements.  The TOTW usually include links to audio files that vary quite a bit.  Also, many people go to the Tab forum to ask for arrangements (I know, since I have provided some of these tabs).  Still, having some guided tours to help folks learn or polish their playing on a TOTW would be helpful to lots of people.

I'm unsure that people will pay for the instruction since there is free help elsewhere on the Hangout and on the web, in general.  Certainly if you had some of the better know performers who frequent the Hangout (Cathy Fink, Adam Hurt, Dan Levenson, Mike Iverson, and others) offer this instruction, that would raise the perceived value.

It's hard to be against something that will spread the music to mroe people.

David

Snaps - Posted - 02/27/2014:  14:55:00

I think I'd like to use BIAB, Erics idea would give us nonusers a look at BIAB.

Brooklynbanjoboy - Posted - 02/27/2014:  14:59:12

I am happy with the rotational responsibilities, and I like the diverse approaches to the TOTW (OT) drill that derive from the burden sharing arrangement.  Every weekly contributor goes at it a different way.  It's a nice weekly surprise.

V/R,

Lew

EggerRidgeBoy - Posted - 02/27/2014:  15:13:33

Like Lew, I enjoy the different approaches to presenting a tune that the current set-up provides.  Each volunteer's personality comes through in the write-ups, and the project has a bit of the flavor of a group of people sitting around at a jam taking turns sharing tunes that they like.  I wouldn't want to lose that flavor, nor turn the TOTW into more of a weekly "lesson".  Not that there is anything at all wrong with such lessons, just that that has not been the approach taken by the Old Time Tune of the Week over the past six years.

Fleshing out the Tunes of the Week with additional instructional material certainly can't hurt - the easier it is to get people playing the tune the better (and I for one would almost certainly make use of such material) - but I would suggest that it be an adjunct to the original TOTW post - i.e., a separate post made in the discussion thread.  I would prefer that each volunteer's original post reflect their interest in and approach to the tune, and that it not be modified or edited or added to.

wallflower - Posted - 02/27/2014:  15:54:46

I also love the TOTW feature the way it is and give my warmest thanks to the various folks doing it. I suggest that the expanded information might be started as a monthly feature on the tunes that are already in the TOTW index and at the same time, new links and backup tracks can be added. Sometimes old links no longer work so reviewing the archived tunes might be a good idea anyway.

J-Walk - Posted - 02/27/2014:  16:03:19

I like TOTW as it is. I always like to hear how others interpret a tune. I think it's possible that including backing tracks at various speeds might even stifle creativity, suggesting that it's the only way to play a tune. So I'll vote for no change. 

But, I've been known to be wrong. Maybe we can try one and see how it goes?

SoundsGoodToMe - Posted - 02/27/2014:  16:31:48

No objections to adding BIAB stuff as long as it doesn't supercede anything else.  Nearly everyone can view online videos and tab documents, but not everyone has access to proprietary software.

etparadox - Posted - 02/27/2014:  18:00:30

I like the idea of additional materials, but only if released at a later time. The current format encourages people to make their own arrangement based on the version they like best, so a lot of community generated tabs and recordings pop up in the comments and around the site. I think a complete lesson/tab would probably detract from that some introducing a standardized path of least resistance, especially for the new players. I like wallflower's suggestion of a monthly post for tunes that are already in the TOTW archive. It would provide more resources without infringing on the current TOTW format. 

vrteach - Posted - 02/27/2014:  18:16:45

I'm in the "it's a good thing to add more tune-playing info--but not if it breaks the spontaneity and variety" camp. It would be fine (even GREAT) to add the features you describe to existing TOTWs as the threads expand. But to make it some sort of expected feature a priori for a TOTW just seems to me to add too much formality. I've always felt that it would be fine for a TOTW volunteer to submit a tune that they actually don't feel they are comfortable with posting their own version. I think we've had one or two like that, and the TOTW community is glad to fill in versions.

ON the other hand, some of the most popular postings have been for commonly known tunes. I'm considering them popular because a bunch of folks have posted their own versions--largely recorded previously. Those tend to be tunes that "beginners" would be interested in some more focused teaching offerings. I suppose that a TOTW volunteer can let you know if they are planning some old standard.

I'm interested in WallFlower's note about revisiting archived TOTWs on a monthly sequence. I think this could be a nice way of focusing on some tunes, but maintaining the remarkable variety (and longevity) that has been the BHO Tune-Of-The-Week. So that could be a "Monthly Enhanced Tune Of the Week" or METOTW. It would certainly not be a problem to add links to those topics to the existing index. I suggest Arkansas Traveler for the first one.

schlange - Posted - 02/27/2014:  18:27:09

Good thoughts, vrteach (and everyone!) Keep 'em coming. 

Bill Rogers - Posted - 02/27/2014:  18:56:14

The thing  most useful for  me would be a solo (i.e. no backup instruments or tracks) fiddle version of the tune, preferably a solid, straightforward one.  I'd find that superior to backing tracks or accompanied fiddle.

banjo_brad - Posted - 02/27/2014:  18:57:50

My thinking about the BITB feature is: what instruments would be included in the backing track? Most of the OT tunes are really fiddle tunes, so an OT fiddle backing track would fit, and guitar might help some, except for the modal tunes that really don't have any kind of chord structure.

You might make the track an OT String Band style, but that doesn't always fit the tune being offered. I see a LOT of time investment for this feature, not sure if it's worth it.

vrteach - Posted - 02/27/2014:  19:41:16

Something else to add. Back when I put together the guidelines, such as they are, I had the following note on what makes a tune interesting:

5. Tunes can be interesting for many reasons. They may be commonly known chestnuts--but what is the history behind them? They may be uncommon tunes--where did you learn of it? They may just be fun to play. They may have odd titles or amusing lyrics. They may be associated with a particular tuning or be useful for demonstrating a particular technique. They may just mean something to you personally.

The reasons that I have put in bold italics above have rarely been used as a point of interest. LyleK has done a couple of TOTWs based on a B-flat tuning and the Old G tuning, and maybe ClawDan's posting of Spotted Pony stems from his use of the tune for demonstration of various techniques. The things that Eric is suggesting can provide enhancements which increase the interest in tunes for those reasons--helping in the pedagogical/educational goals of the Banjo Hangout.

Boykin - Posted - 02/28/2014:  09:05:26

I agree with J-Walk. I really enjoy TOTW just the way it is. I like the diversity and creativity inherent in a less formal approach.

EggerRidgeBoy - Posted - 02/28/2014:  09:55:50

I think the first guideline to any additions or changes to the Tune of the Week should be "First, do no harm".  The Old-Time TOTW has been going on for five-and-a-half years now - 292 straight weeks without a single miss.  It is one of my favorite features of BanjoHangout, and I know at least a few others feel the same way.  I would welcome any new, helpful additions to the project, as long as they didn't modify its basic character or threaten its longevity.

It might seem strange to think that adding BIAB tracks or formal instructional videos would pose much of a threat, and it probably wouldn't.  But I can imagine a couple of pitfalls.  For instance, it has been suggested that instead of trying to prepare such material for every TOTW, we go back and periodically choose an earlier TOTW to "enhance".  That is an interesting idea and is likely more practical than trying to include instructional videos with each new tune that is posted.  However, if we did so on a weekly basis, I think it could easily overshadow the new TOTW being posted that week.  Especially if the enhanced tune were a popular one such as "Arkansas Traveler", "Shady Grove", "Soldier's Joy", etc., and the new tune were a more obscure one.  In very general terms, well-known tunes get more discussion than lesser-known ones, and if, let's say, "Pretty Little Porcupine" is posted as a new TOTW at the same time that "June Apple" is posted as an enhanced tune with instructional videos, BIAB tracks, etc., the latter tune might well draw most of the attention and involvement.  I think people will naturally want to comment on and post versions of "June Apple", even though it had already been covered as a TOTW months or years earlier.  I don't know that there are enough people regularly involved in the TOTW to keep two good discussions going every week (then again, maybe there are).

Posting an "enhanced" tune once a month might avoid that issue.  In that case, however, the connection to the TOTW project becomes pretty slim.  With 292 tunes on the list, the fact that, say, "Little Sadie" was covered as TOTW #102 back in 2010 wouldn't really have much bearing on it being presented in 2014 with BIAB tracks and specially prepared instructional videos.  If we were to do it on a monthly basis, I might suggest that it just become a separate project altogether - a "Lesson of the Month" or something.

I do think trying to prepare new instructional videos and BIAB backing tracks for each new TOTW would be difficult without a lot of lead time for the person doing the preparation (or maybe not - I've never done either so I don't know all the logistics involved).  And I think that getting each volunteer to choose a tune far enough in advance and coordinate with the "enhancer" - whether Eric or somebody else - so that those materials can be a part of the TOTW post would subtly change the character of the TOTW.

If we do choose to try to incorporate  the additional materials under discussion into the TOTW, I would suggest that they simply be posted as a comment in the TOTW thread, where they would join the audio and video versions, tabs, and other resources already being posted by members.  Each person could choose to make use of them or ignore them as he or she see fits.

Edited by - EggerRidgeBoy on 02/28/2014 10:05:56

Marc Nerenberg - Posted - 02/28/2014:  09:57:08

I think Tune of the Week should stay exactly as it is - spontaneous, varied, eccentric and eclectic.

Personally, I think BIAB backing tracks are not really suited to the quirky nature of old time music.

mworden - Posted - 02/28/2014:  10:21:49

I want to add my voice to those who think that TOTW should stay essentially as it is.  I think it would be fine to add backing or instructional material in the comments but formalizing or requiring those things would seriously undermine the essential character of this fantastic community project.  

ramjo - Posted - 02/28/2014:  10:37:29

The OT crowd already has an extensive BIAB alternative. Banjoholic's Old Time Jam site: oldtimejam.com/Jam.html

Brooklynbanjoboy - Posted - 02/28/2014:  11:34:18

I vote for leaving the TOTW (OT) the way it is. 

But I also recognize that some newcomers to the blood sport of clawhammer music might like to see more in the way of instruction for these great archaic TOTW selections.

What about this: the TOTW remains unchanged, except that for each TOTW, a volunteer agrees to post a video providing playing instructions -- as a separate, stand-alone addition to the BHO media library, distinct from the TOTW thread, but perhaps referenced in the thread text?  Would that check the box? 

An alternative might be to designate one TOTW selection each month for this treatment   Might make it easier to get volunteers to post instructional videos, tabs, or other learning devices supportive of efforts to catch the TOTW selection.

V/R,

Lew

mojohand40 - Posted - 02/28/2014:  11:47:38

Well, personally, I really do not like BIAB backing tracks. They rarely sound good. I can't imagine them working for Old Time stuff at all.. Jus my oppinion...

vrteach - Posted - 02/28/2014:  12:56:48

As I see it, if someone does an "official" enhanced-for-education revisit of an older TOTW, the new topic could easily be incorporated into the existing index. Thus:

6. 08/31/2008 -- Rock the Cradle, Joe, provided by TrapDoor2

Becomes:

6. 08/31/2008 -- Rock the Cradle, Joe, provided by TrapDoor2, enhanced by schlange, 03/03/2014 linktotopic

This would serve to connect the largely cultural/historical/contextual focus of most of the TOTW postings, with the more tutorial focus that Eric is suggesting.

Edited by - vrteach on 02/28/2014 13:05:10

janolov - Posted - 02/28/2014:  13:03:02

I like TOTW just as it is. I learn a lot every week and I am really looking forward to every Friday. 

The repertoire is also to a large part  focused on American fiddle tunes, but in my opinion OT music is also songs (I discovered OT music from Pete Seeger's music) and other "genres" should have a place in the TOTW (for example, I am just now trying to learn some traditional Swedish music played on nyckelharpa /keyed fiddle/ and transpose to banjo). I would welcome initiatives that broaden the repertoire of the TOTW.

However, I think that most of the active participants today at the TOTW are rather skilled players. Personally I think that the information given today is enough for  me so I can learn the tune. However, I think that a lot of the basic players may have difficulties to learn the TOTW tunes. Some kind of professional help with basic tabs and video demonstrations for beginners may be a help to some people.

I don't know if back-up tracks will be successful. Most of the TOTW seems to be fiddle tunes, and the natural back-up to the banjo should be a fiddle track. A lot of the TOTW tunes also stands for themselves on the banjo, and do not need any back-up. On the other hand, OT is also jam music and a back-up track simulating a jam situation, rather than a "band situation" could be a help for many players. 

Mtngoat - Posted - 02/28/2014:  18:14:55

I'm with the "If it ain't broke don't fix it, leave it the way it is crowd" 

I'm happy that TOTW is considered popular enough for commercialization but change inevitably follows once money enters the picture.  Those suggestions may appeal to some in the OT banjo community, so create a separate thread and let it sink or swim on its own, with no linkage to TOTW.

aeroweenie - Posted - 02/28/2014:  19:28:51

I like TOTW as it is.  There are usually links to several versions of the tune, often varying quite a bit.  One can play along with these so I don't see a need for further backing tracks.  But I appreciate you asking the question!

banjered - Posted - 02/28/2014:  19:41:33

I think you are running into the general mindset differences between the OT crowd and the bluegrass crowd.

God and the devil are walking down the road and God says to the devil, "Ya know I've been looking at all that sinning going on down there on earth, and I think I have a solution."

" Wassat?" the devils asks.

And God says, "I am going to invent religion."

"That's a great idea," the devil says! "I'll organize it for you!"

Banjered

janolov - Posted - 03/02/2014:  12:10:49

I just looked at the Bluegrass TOTW: banjohangout.org/topic/279727.

This is not how I want the Old-Time TOTW ! The Bluegrassers get 16 different versions, most of them backing tracks and a rather accurate tab how Ralph played it, and several links to lessons you have to pay for. There is no information about the tune's history, for example the relationship to Lonesome John as a lot of OT player calls it! 

I like the Old-Time way, when posting a few good versions (by BHO members, from festivals and from the Milliner-Koken collection and other "true sources"!), and usually a tab that is posted by another member later. This gives a creative process. The challenge by the Old-Time TOTW is that you give each player a possibility to try on his/her own  conditions. Perhaps it may be difficult for beginners, but I am not sure that beginners will be positive to pay for TOTW lessons - is seems to be an unnatural way to learn OT tunes by paid lessons.

Marc Nerenberg - Posted - 03/02/2014:  12:51:54

I hadn't thought about looking at the bluegrass TOTW until I read your post, janalov.

Now that I have looked at it, I agree with you 100%.

It's not at all what I would like to see in the Old Time TOTW. It's about as far away from what I would like to see as I can imagine.

The OT TOTW is a hands on, hand-made, history centric and eccentric community effort, built one post-at-a-time by the OT community itself. Each week it grows organically from the initial post, and relies very much on the contributions of all the posters to provide more information, versions and opinions - it's not a prepackaged event like the bluegrass version - and there is no definitive version of any tune. There are always a multiplicity of highly varied versions that emerge over time in the thread.

ajisai - Posted - 03/02/2014:  14:37:26

TOTW is a gem just the way it is.

I don't think a lesson component is necessary and, in fact, I think it would detract. And please, no backing tracks.

EggerRidgeBoy - Posted - 03/02/2014:  15:21:25

As much as I appreciate the spirit behind the original suggestion, this discussion and my own thinking things over has led me to the conclusion that "enhancing" the Old-Time TOTW with lessons and backing tracks is pretty much a solution in search of a problem.

I do realize - just by looking at the thread numbers - that there are many people who read each TOTW without posting a response.  Some of them may be beginning players who could use an extra bit of help in learning the tune - something besides all the videos, audio clips, and tablature that are posted in the original post and the ensuing discussion.  I'm not sure exactly what form the help could take, but it does seem clear that formal paid lessons and even BIAB backing tracks are "overkill" that would overwhelm the TOTW as it is now.  I would probably just encourage anybody who needs some extra help to simply post their questions or requests in the thread - I have little doubt that more than one TOTW participant would be happy to help them out.

Edited by - EggerRidgeBoy on 03/02/2014 15:22:10

mtmncobb - Posted - 03/02/2014:  19:32:23

I like it the way it is. Please leave it alone.

mtmncobb - Posted - 03/02/2014:  19:34:04

I don't like the bluegrass TOTW at all. Not because it is bluegrass, but because I don't like the format I guess you would call it. I like bluegrass in general.

Edited by - mtmncobb on 03/02/2014 19:38:59

schlange - Posted - 03/04/2014:  10:38:10

Thanks for the input everyone. I don't want to step in and mess with a good thing, and your TOTW is certainly a good thing.

I do still think there's a place on the BHO for a featured clawhammer tune with a neat little package of learning resources attached to it (a tab, a how to video, etc). (I base that thinking on historic sales of clawhammer lessons and workshops here on the Banjo Hangout, as well as requests and feedback I've received.)

While I know there's a difference in music/learning philosophies between a lot of people in the "Scruggs camp" and the "Claw camp" (apologies to Mr. Levenson) I think beginner players in both camps share similar challenges, and are looking for straightforward guidance. If we can give them that for free or for a small fee that covers the teacher's labor I see it as a win-win.

With all that said--if I do decide to pursue some sort of clawhammer tune learning feature, I'll do it separately from the TOTW (although I may link it to an old TOTW post in case people want to research the tune more).

Thanks again for your input, it's appreciated!

chip arnold - Posted - 03/04/2014:  12:18:57

Are you talking about all OT styles or just c'hammer?

janolov - Posted - 03/04/2014:  12:30:55

Chip, I had the same thought. Old-Time and Clawhammer are not synonyms!

I also noticed that most of the posts here was by more or less experienced players, that usually seems to manage to learn a new tune out of the information given in a usual TOTW thread. There may be a lot of less experienced players that don't even look at the TOTW because they think it too difficult. They may think it would be valuable to get some extra help. 

Edited by - janolov on 03/04/2014 12:37:57