UnknownUser - Posted - 02/21/2014:  04:22:40

Ah! I see your coding now. No cause for concern. I was unaware of 22" montanas. Hence the clarification. That is a great stake in the ground. In the tsumura collection I see.

UnknownUser - Posted - 02/21/2014:  04:46:50

Im also puzzled as to why I am unable to find any trademarks for Montana. I've found that using the patent and trademark gazettes is much more reliable. So for now the NPU date is elusive. Polle what are your thoughts of armrest branding, anything there?

Polle Flaunoe - Posted - 02/21/2014:  04:59:25

Peter,

Sorry - but you´ve missed your chance getting one of the "insiders".

And I simply can´t continue spending my costly time "training" you - you´ve so far failed all of the previous lessons/tests.

I´ll however encourage you continuously studying the various B&D Silver Bell styles/versions/developments over time - they are all examples of the "King of 4-string Banjos" - very few newer brands/models do IMHO come close to these 80-90 years old Ladies.

I take, that you´ll respect my approach (can I use this word in English?) - you do btw. already IMO owe the BHO and banjo in general community - and especially me - expressing some apologies.

Regards and Farewell for now

Polle

UnknownUser - Posted - 02/21/2014:  05:33:40

Huh? Im confused! Think something got misinterpreted.  Lets step back for a minute.  I was unaware of a 22" Montana, and all is lost.. You can see why i am confused...  I've put alot of work in this week helping you.  I must be reading this wrong...  If my math is correct, I see 2 examples in your DB before the 23" introduction.  Hardly reason to call me out on being uneducated about them...  I'll ask that you reconsider your stance...  Here I was happy that we were finally getting along... Was I wrong???

Edited by - UnknownUser on 02/21/2014 05:48:23

UnknownUser - Posted - 02/21/2014:  05:53:54

I do sincerely hope you're pulling my leg...  I've made one pile of contributions to your DB in helping you validate key assumptions (1922 B&D, PegHead, getting Patent and Trademark info (which you've asked for), etc...). 



I am also concerned as to why this communications wasnt sent offline in order to keep the forum clean...

Edited by - UnknownUser on 02/21/2014 05:58:42

Polle Flaunoe - Posted - 02/21/2014:  06:03:51

Peter,

Misinterpreted?  Sorry - but no!  It´s all straight-forwarded.

Do have a look at this thread banjohangout.org/topic/279955 - can you in any way yourself justify making me as sad, as I am pt.?

I have nothing more to say - I´m the foremost knowledgeable person regarding this matter/topic/issue - but I´m so tired pt. - I don´t want defending myself - as I don´t have the need doing so - take it or leave it!

I´m so sad!  And you´re IMO the one to blame!

Polle

tenorbanjoCGDA - Posted - 02/21/2014:  06:05:44

ha-ha-ha.  i had this thread on subscription - waiting for this to turn nasty.   peter when will you learn? he cannot be counted on to be fair and decent.  i wish everybody could see.  im so tired of him.  good work though peter

UnknownUser - Posted - 02/21/2014:  06:14:20

Polle, this is so unfortunate...  I had sent you a very personalized regret for history with a deal asking for me to make mistakes learning which you agreed to...  I'm inclined to think now that you are more to blame for your own outcomes...  Very sad...  I've also read your referenced thread...  TimeStamps tell the tale... You are still beating the dead horse - you had an axe to grind today...  Again, Im wiling to forgive, so please move forward...

Edited by - UnknownUser on 02/21/2014 06:30:23

Polle Flaunoe - Posted - 02/21/2014:  06:34:45

quote:

---

Originally posted by petercorfield

Polle, this is so unfortunate...  I had sent you a very personalized regret for history with a deal asking for me to make mistakes learning which you agreed to...  I'm inclined to think now that you are more to blame for your own outcomes...  Very sad...

---

Peter,

Yes - you did ask me for the "permission" making these mistakes of/in the past - but I didn´t give you a carte blanche for doing so from now on!

Plus - I did encourage you putting up your regrets in open at this forum - but you didn´t!

Peter - here´s a sort of warning - unless you don´t realize your present position - please don´t force me pointing it out.

Polle

UnknownUser - Posted - 02/21/2014:  06:40:53

Ok, lets play the game bud...   I'm not going away...   Tell me my position! I'll tell you yours, and I'll post on every thread i can find... You can't move as fast as I, and will put you in a depressed mood in a hurry...  Post whatever you want, again you'll lose because you are a supposed professional with a sock puppet which is quite obvious from the other thread...  They even talk just like you...  Please, I dare you...  In fact, since I didn't keep any past communication with you, I'd love to have a copy... Crash and burn would ya....  For now, I'll keep researching without your help which is a sad way to end a week of progress..  Well I've made all the recent 2013-2014 progress, you're just doing the monkey work validating it...   Hell, I replicated your entire SN dating database in 1 week using google.

Edited by - UnknownUser on 02/21/2014 06:48:16

Polle Flaunoe - Posted - 02/21/2014:  06:47:18

quote:

---

Originally posted by tenorbanjoCGDA

ha-ha-ha.  i had this thread on subscription - waiting for this to turn nasty.   peter when will you learn? he cannot be counted on to be fair and decent.  i wish everybody could see.  im so tired of him.  good work though peter

---

Dear Mr. Anonymous,

Besides turning your face in open - you did forget something important.

I am - as you may have noticed from other threads - a world leading expert regarding vintage 4-string banjos - plus an absolutely ditto leading expert regarding the modern rebuild and set-up of these beloved vintage jo´s - you´re a low-life, it seems - why not come up in the open and let´s take serious 4-string banjos etc.?

Polle

UnknownUser - Posted - 02/21/2014:  06:50:20

Keep going!!!  Exactly what we want from you...  This was my thread, again you self identified and hijacked the topic...  If I recall you hijack everything I do.  Hmmmm???

Edited by - UnknownUser on 02/21/2014 07:05:40

tenorbanjoCGDA - Posted - 02/21/2014:  07:02:45

calling people 'low-life' is not very nice thing to do.  more reason for you to excuse yourself.  your posts are fact, you had nothing to base that on.

UnknownUser - Posted - 02/21/2014:  07:07:47

quote:

---

Originally posted by Polle Flaunoe

quote:

---

Originally posted by petercorfield

Polle, this is so unfortunate...  I had sent you a very personalized regret for history with a deal asking for me to make mistakes learning which you agreed to...  I'm inclined to think now that you are more to blame for your own outcomes...  Very sad...

---

Peter,

Yes - you did ask me for the "permission" making these mistakes of/in the past - but I didn´t give you a carte blanche for doing so from now on!

Plus - I did encourage you putting up your regrets in open at this forum - but you didn´t!

Peter - here´s a sort of warning - unless you don´t realize your present position - please don´t force me pointing it out.

Polle

---

That is such an arrogant stance and not needed.  Keep burning my friend.

Edited by - UnknownUser on 02/21/2014 07:08:05

UnknownUser - Posted - 02/21/2014:  07:50:42

Polle - you can undo all of this...  Just let people be people and learn, have conversation, experiment... It's not all about you.  A very late lesson in life.  Please notice that you've done this now 4 times this year.  A pattern???  Yes, I am to the point, you dont like that, fine...

tenorbanjoCGDA - Posted - 02/21/2014:  10:40:43

not to worry peter.  his posts speak volumes about his character.  there was no reason for him to flip out at you.  this is to be expect as ive seen it 100 times before from him targetted at other 'lowlifes'.  i was actually enjoying the progress this week.  but remember - its all justified because he is a world leading expert.  self proclaimed or not.  its laughable!

UnknownUser - Posted - 02/21/2014:  10:53:58

True. I remember a saying once "Show me, don't tell me".  My experience has been that everytime I've been told "how I should think about someone", that someone has always made it hard to believe.

i.e I'm not crazy, I just act that way, trust me I'm really not like that... Really!  



Unfortunately in order to get to the facts about our banjos again, we've had to endure a bunch of pain today in a special treatment case. Progress of time will correct such things.  That we can count on.  



My apologies to all that are reading, as "The Stage" has reappeared and could have been dealt with and initiated in a more controlled fashion offline.

 

Edited by - UnknownUser on 02/21/2014 10:57:29

Joven - Posted - 02/21/2014:  11:21:41

Polle,
your handicap and your belief of superiority does not give you the right to insult and attempt to impose your "knowledge"
As I had said, learn to respect others. Be kind. We all need to do
Good jobe Peter and tenor in clearing the air.

UnknownUser - Posted - 02/21/2014:  12:04:46

More of in the Felt - Grip Pick

 

UnknownUser - Posted - 02/21/2014:  12:21:45

The Bacon Banjo Co. offered the “B & D”, Nick Lucas, and the waning years of the Rainbow card. The B & D  featured a dozen celluloid picks in 3 sizes with felt grips. The B & D pick itself is incredibly rare with an actual card still outstanding.

UnknownUser - Posted - 02/21/2014:  14:08:54

Here are a couple different sets of strings they sold:

 

UnknownUser - Posted - 02/21/2014:  19:01:45

A 1925 Montana Catalog:

UnknownUser - Posted - 02/23/2014:  03:28:15

Here are some other artifacts that were provided:

A Bridge, tags, wrench, mute, strings and a catalog

 

tenorbanjoCGDA - Posted - 02/23/2014:  15:47:35

great work peter.  nice to see 'you' have the maturity to stay at it.

Edited by - tenorbanjoCGDA on 02/23/2014 15:48:09

UnknownUser - Posted - 02/26/2014:  17:59:26

More on the B&D Super Strings: Approximate first mention date of May 1924 - mtr.arcade-museum.com/MTR-1924...1-125.pdf

UnknownUser - Posted - 02/26/2014:  18:38:49

Using the Sultana launch (Q2 1929) and this catalog, we can estimate the launch of other items included within

acousticmusic.org/userfiles/fi...talog.pdf

UnknownUser - Posted - 02/26/2014:  18:59:18

The 1928 Catalog (acousticmusic.org/userfiles/fi...talog.pdf) gives us some glimpses of NPU #9 introduction in 1927 (given the printing lag).  This is confirmed in the SN DB (22777 - banjoworld.de/High40.htm) but primarily the MTR document (mtr.arcade-museum.com/MTR-1927-84-12/31/ ) (which predates M.J. Scheidelmeir's NPU #9.  



This is important because it justifies part of the 1927 dating accuracy seen in the B&D Serial Number DB.  Given 22777 (i.e. ~700 in to a ~2400 production year) or 30% into the year using the DB scheme,ith  lines up wthe dating of the article, also a 1/3rd into the year (even if the one mentioned predates 22777) - We'd have to assume it was built shortly after - but ball park for sure.

Edited by - UnknownUser on 02/26/2014 19:17:48

UnknownUser - Posted - 02/26/2014:  19:24:04

More detailed Pics banjoworld.de/High517a.htm

UnknownUser - Posted - 02/27/2014:  12:29:19

MEETING OF THE AMERICAN GUILD OF BANJOISTS, MANDOLINISTS AND GUITARISTS.  

Free for all to use even though I did some retouching.  (Hahaha - You know who you are...)

 

Edited by - UnknownUser on 02/27/2014 12:30:12

UnknownUser - Posted - 02/27/2014:  12:33:04

Style Numbers were introduced in 1923 around the same time as SN 9906 Q2-Q3 '23.  This Document puts a line in the sand for this date in the fall of 1923.  I'm sure others can push in on that date.

mtr.arcade-museum.com/MTR-1923...14-40.pdf

 

UnknownUser - Posted - 02/28/2014:  12:01:12

re: 

BrittDLD1 - Posted - 02/03/2010:  13:45:47

OK Youz Guys --

I haven't got time to do ALL the work... So I have a small (hopefully enjoyable) task 

for you to do. It's a sort of a contest... 1st place is a "bravo!" from me, and my 

admiration for a "job well done."

I know Beeze has found his way around some copies of "The Music Trade Review" pretty 

well by now. I'd like someone (anyone) to find the October 31, 1925 edition -- and post 

the article about the Bacon Company.

It's somewhat rare -- and NOT as easy to find, as one might think. (The article was a

special "insert" -- which is usually missing in most copies you come across.)

If no one finds it in a week (2/9) ... I'll whine, and moan, and grumble, and call you all 

"losers" -- and then post it myself.

Have at it!

Best-

Ed Britt...



....



Well this was actually a very easy task, except where it came from is dead wrong on Ed's behalf.  It didnt come from the Music Trades Review, it came from the "Music Trades".  A totally different publishing - "The Music Trades was a weekly periodical serving the musical instrument industry ~1885 to about 1935.   It was in direct competition to the Music Trade Review, another weekly periodical serving the same industry.    The Music Trades went out to a much smaller audience than the Music Trade Review, so consequently it is quite rare today." 



I'd take the "bravo" and admiration, but don't want it!!  BTW - these images a free for all to use, except [Ed Britt and Polle Flaunoe] - Just a copyright thing!!  I'm sure you'll understand.  Otherwise, it would have been in: mtr.arcade-museum.com/MTR-1925...18-34.pdf

 

Edited by - UnknownUser on 02/28/2014 12:04:37

UnknownUser - Posted - 02/28/2014:  20:21:23

A bunch more pieces of work:

1)  A rather odd communication to the media in Day's first week on the job.  Announcing that he produces the blue ribbon.  I suspect the Super/Deluxe in 1922.  

2) The 1923 fall version mentioning the style numbers

3) The only known picture of the B&D Felt Grip Pick display from 1925.  The date is rather interesting as is it is exactly the same the the "Ne Plus Ultra" first use date

4) All SilverBells get an Oettinger Tailpiece.  Cross reference to known banjos places an accurate date for ~164XX to May 1925

5) Purchase of the Groton Building in Apr 1925

6) A picture of Day and Berlin in 1925

7) A big one - First NPU # 9 now pushed back to Jan-Feb 1927

8) Picture and Article in 1926 when Bacon won the banjo contest

UnknownUser - Posted - 03/01/2014:  03:31:41

Qualifies the Roy Smeck Stage model as been Q4 1927

Polle Flaunoe - Posted - 03/01/2014:  04:23:35

Peter,

Thanks for posting your "finds" on the run - indeed interesting for most B&D lovers, I take.  Do keep on posting new finds.

FYI - you don´t have to add any personal copyrights - with a free use of your finds - except for Ed and me - he and I do already have all of these infos (plus many more) in our archives.

BTW - when looking at the introductions - please have in mind, that there was always a delay - of various length - between productions and introductions.

In case of any doubts regarding these delays etc. - do have a look at my DB - you´ll nowhere find a better tool for dating our beloved B&D´s.

Polle

Edited by - Polle Flaunoe on 03/01/2014 04:29:04

UnknownUser - Posted - 03/01/2014:  04:42:07

Polle - Please refrain from partaking any further in this project. Your inputs are not wanted on my thread.  Thank you.

Edited by - UnknownUser on 03/01/2014 04:42:47

beezaboy - Posted - 03/01/2014:  05:18:24

Peter -

You are a research dynamo.

I am a Gretsch Bacon/B&D person.

A couple of questions, please.

1.  Where did you find Music Trades magazine.  I found microfilm at the University of Illinois Urbana and had to go there to read it (except for 1919 and part of 1922 which is in google books).  Just curious.

2.  It is "common knowledge" that after the 1938 flood D.L.Day (I guess it was he) arranged with Fred Gretsch to have Bacon/B&D products "finished?" at the Gretsch factory(s) in Brooklyn, N.Y.  Have you seen any reference to this episode in the period literature?  An original source sort of thing.  I suppose not as it doesn't seem to be the sort of information that the Bacon Co. would want to disseminate for marketing or public relations reasons...but you never know.  I sure would like to know more details about the Gretsch/Bacon years 1938-1939.  Gretsch purchased the tangible and intangible personal property of Bacon Co. in very early 1940 according to a press report dated March 1940.

UnknownUser - Posted - 03/01/2014:  05:25:22

Hi John, I'd be more than happy to work with you.  Re: Post flood co-op, let's take that on.  Please msg me offline and I will share my source for the Music Trades (but its not cheap - hence the copyright on my scans and retouching - a familar phrase. lol..).  As Polle mentioned above, he and Ed have all these infos.  Based on Ed ask from 2010 and the actual databank for these, you'll deduce that this is not the case - a bluff if you will.  This is why these documents have been completely elusive in PDF format.

UnknownUser - Posted - 03/01/2014:  06:03:47

The First known 19 Fret with 23" scale - hangoutstorage.com/banjohangou...72011.jpg (provided by beezeboy)

​This is a line to be pulled back on.  Its a rather odd Montana as its the First known NPU # 8 (another important find Q1 1924).  But, oddly no other No. 7 found til an entire year later Q4 1925.  Nor No. 5 or No. 6 found til later that 1924 year.  Probably fair to say that they all came out (i.e. No. 5, 6, 7 & 8) in Q1-Q2 1924.

So obviously a lot of changes going on in Early 1924:

F-holes

Soft Pedal Mute

19 Fret 23" Scale

New PegHead design

A new resonator back

More to come...



 

Edited by - UnknownUser on 03/01/2014 06:05:25

beezaboy - Posted - 03/01/2014:  06:37:09

The Silver Bell 23" scale 19 fret introduction was a point of interest several years ago.  The introduction of the 17 fret "long scale" can be documented in the period literature as June 1923.  The introduction of the 19 fret - 23" scale was problematic.  We found a photograph of one published in early 1925.  So, that has always been my date because we had verification from the resources at hand.  Better to be conservative than to be wrong.

In fact and after the fact (to my dismay) I discovered evidence that the Vegaphone had also been introduced in June 1923.  I had previously thought August.  Oh, well.

UnknownUser - Posted - 03/01/2014:  06:43:09

John, that's great input.  If you have any more dating documentations that have been concluded - can you post?  Love this 17 fret long-scale find.

Edited by - UnknownUser on 03/01/2014 06:43:37

dspainters - Posted - 03/01/2014:  08:19:36

hello peter i know this is your thread but i was just wondering if you found any information on my 1927 radio special but if you come across any info it would be appreciated buy the way i do love all the info you put in on this thread. one more question how to you tell a tenor from a plectrum thanks again ...dave

UnknownUser - Posted - 03/01/2014:  10:04:10

Hi Dave, I'll look into this for you over the wknd. These banjos have rather varying scale lengths. Typical example might be 17(22"), 19(23"), 22(26"). The plectrum being the 22 fret version in this example. Hope this sheds some light on your some initial thoughts.

dspainters - Posted - 03/01/2014:  11:14:08

thanks very much peter..i know the radio special is a cheaper student model but is very rare,i looked every site but still no info on that model..thanks again..

UnknownUser - Posted - 03/02/2014:  16:42:27

Beezaboy - A critical piece of research I'm wondering if you can help with.  Its seems a bit of a spat in 1932 when Bacon Retired.  Day also resigned from the company.  Not sure if anybody has highlighted this before.  It then opens up the question, who was at the wheel after Bacon left? Everything I have points Day becoming president, but cant find any documentation of that except for Ed Britt commentaries in the history of.  Thoughts?

beezaboy - Posted - 03/03/2014:  05:15:04

Peter - Sorry I have no knowledge.  I am not well versed in Bacon matters and rely on others here for information about the company, its history and its products.  I am a Gretsch banjo enthusiast and my interest in things Bacon pretty much begins in September 1938.

UnknownUser - Posted - 03/03/2014:  06:23:48

Here is a great article with Caesar Ciosi as the focus

UnknownUser - Posted - 03/03/2014:  07:06:40

Look who was still kicking around town in 1940 at the age of 73:

Name:     David L Day

Titles and Terms:    

Event Type:     Census

Event Date:     1940

Event Place:     Groton, Groton Town, New London, Connecticut, United States

Gender:     Male

Age:     73

Marital Status:     Married

Race (Original):     White

Race:     White

Relationship to Head of Household (Original):     Boarder

Relationship to Head of Household:     Boarder

Birthplace:     New Hampshire

Birth Year (Estimated):     1867

Last Place of Residence:     Same House

District:     6-15

Family Number:     31

Sheet Number and Letter:     2A

Line Number:     33

Affiliate Publication Number:     T627

Affiliate Film Number:     523

Digital Folder Number:    005461412

Image Number:     00397

     Household    Gender    Age    Birthplace

Head    Charles F Dickinson    M    72     Connecticut

Wife    Alice E Dickinson    F    72     Connecticut

Boarder     David L Day    M    73     New Hampshire





And here in 1930 with wife and Child:

Name:     David L Day

Titles and Terms:    

Event Type:     Census

Event Year:     1930

Event Place:     New London, New London, Connecticut, United States

District:     0032

Gender:     Male

Age:     64

Marital Status:     Married

Race:     White

Race (Original):     White

Relationship to Head of Household:     Head

Relationship to Head of Household (Original):     Head

Birth Year (Estimated):     1866

Birthplace:     New Hampshire

Immigration Year:    

Father's Birthplace:     Armenia

Mother's Birthplace:     New Hampshire

Sheet Number and Letter:     14A

Household ID:     427

Line Number:     32

Affiliate Name:     The U.S. National Archives and Records Administration (NARA)

Affiliate Publication Number:     T626

Affiliate Film Number:     282

GS Film number:    2340017

Digital Folder Number:    004531886

Image Number:     00551

     Household    Gender    Age    Birthplace

Head     David L Day    M    64     New Hampshire

Wife    Annie M Day    F    62     Massachusetts

Son    Joseph S Day    M    35     Massachusetts

UnknownUser - Posted - 03/03/2014:  07:37:53

During the same Census Mildred Lucy (husband Thomas) who was 38, was registered as working part-time hrs as a Stenographer at a Musical Manufacturing business.

Edited by - UnknownUser on 03/03/2014 07:38:05

beezaboy - Posted - 03/03/2014:  08:36:39

Peter - Referring back to your trademark searches I have something to share re: same.

Sometime ago I began some trademark searches for NYC banjo maker trademarks, eg "Epiphone", etc.

I learned that some libraries are designated by the USPTO as patent search libraries.

These libraries apparently have a database (on disc?) for "dead" trademarks that is not generally known or available to the uninitiated (like me).  The acronym for the database is "PTRC".

Here is a link to the explanation:

uspto.gov/products/library/ptdl/services/

I was lucky enough to find a helpful librarian at Georgia Tech who looked into this database for me and found some trademarks that do not appear in the online USPTO.  After performing a couple of searches that I requested telephonically the kindly librarian tired of me and invited me to come and use the Georgia Tech library at my convenience for future searches.  It was a courteous end to our long-distance relationship!

However, I thought perhaps that this experience and notice of this resource might be helpful to you and other researchers here on BHO.