mmuussiiccaall - Posted - 02/06/2014:  10:46:49

The two attached diagrams are visual representations of where the intervals are located on a 5 string. I have posted theory in this part of the forum because it is theory related to the tunings used on the 5 string only.

My purpose for this post is to help beginners get a clearer understanding of how the melody of a song basically follows the steps of the major scale. This skill of finding the melody of a song becomes second nature to a musically mature player who works it out by ear or theory as shown here. The major scale can be represented in many ways but I will only use two here, Solfége and Roman Numerals.

DO    RE   MI    FA   SO   LA   TI   do   re    mi    fa    so   la     ti    (small case letters indicate pitches are one octave higher)

  1    2    3     4   5     6    7    8    9    10    11    12   13     14

Instrumentalists usually think in numbers while vocalists use solfége. Since I’m referring to a banjo I will use numbers.

The key that a song is played in is decided by how well the intervals fit on to the fingerboard. The wrong key can put the intervals too high up the neck or too low on the fourth string or even so low as to be unplayable (off the fingerboard).

The general theory of melodies is that they begin and end on a 1 3 5 (equal to 8 10 12 in the higher octave) interval because the accompaniment is playing a tonic chord in those places ( tonic equals the main or key chord).

There is no rule about the range (number) of intervals used to make a melody. This distance can be called the melody range of a song. For instance Old McDonald has a range of seven half-steps (frets) making it easy for a child to sing. The Star Spangled Banner on the other hand has a melody range of twenty half steps making it a challenge for most adults to sing.

The G tuning pdf shows the intervals in the commonly used keys of G C and D that are used in the standard G tuning.

The G C D tunings pdf shows the intervals in the three commonly used tunings, G tuning, C tuning and D tuning.

Numbers in circles are the usual way to play them, the numbers in triangles are the optional ways to play them for fingering ease (staying in one area, etc.). The L markings indicate a low version of the number indicated. Some times especially as listed in the key of G in G tuning it is convenient to think in this terminology to fit the intervals. Also are possible numbers like b3, b7 etc. these are located one fret lower than normal.

I and hopefully others will post songs here to be played in different keys and tunings so that the theory of this becomes clear. I would suggest that by doing a song in the different ways possible the player would see why a certain key in a certain tuning would be the most appropriate answer. Of course a small interval range song could be done in many keys.

I welcome any questions or song requests or different tunings for that matter regarding this, Rick

As an example here is the simple song Mary had a Little Lamb in tab with the interval numbers listed below. Since this is in G tuning and in the key of G it uses the G diagram.

Mary Had A Little Lamb

3 2 1 2 3 3 3   2 2 2   3 5 5   

3 2 1 2 3 3 3 3 2 2 3 2 1

Here are a couple of songs to get started:(spacing approximates rhythm)

Amazing Grace

5     8   10 8 10   9   8     6  5  

5     8    10 8 10   9    12   

10   12   10 12 10  8     5     6        6    5  

5     8    10  8 10     9    8

Oh Susanna

123 5 5 65 3 1   23 3 2 1 2  

123 5 5 65 3 1   23 3 2 2 1    

4 4 6 6   655312

123 5 5  65 3 1

23 3  2  2  1

Ballad Of Jed Clampett

5 5 8 8 8 9 10 10 10 8 9  9  5

7 7 8 9  9 7 8 9 8 6 5  

8 8 10  9 8 11 11 11 11 13

13 12  12 12 12  12 12 5 6 7 8

 

and written in the low number way

55111233312  2  5

7 712 1712165

1 1 3 2144446

65555 55567 1

The Battle Hymn Of The Republic (use the key of C in G tuning ((middle chart)) for the easiest fingering)

5 5  5 5  4 3  5 8  9 10  10 10  9 8  8 7 6   6 6   7 8   7 8   6 5  6 5   3 5         5  5 5  5 5  4 3  5 8  9 10  10 10  9 8    8    9     9    8    7    8     

5   4 3  5 8   9 10     8      6  7 8   7 8   6 5   3        5   4 3   5 8   9 10   8   8   9   9    8    7    8      

And now for a "tour de force"

Jerusalem Ridge transcript of Kenny Baker fiddle ( best out of G=Em G tuning ((Capo 5th to play in original Bill Monroe key)) ) dashs = slurs

5-6  7 1 2 3   3-4  3 2 1 1 2 1 3 1-6 7 1 2 3 5 6 5  3-2 1 3-2 1 6 5

   6 7 1 2 3   3-4  3 2 1 1 2 1 3 1-6 7 1 2 3 5 6 5 3-5-3  2 1 6

5-6 7 1 2 3   3-4  3 2 1 1 2 1 3 1-6 7 1 2 3 5 6 5  3-2 1 3-2 1 6 5

   6 7 1 2 3   3-4  3 2 1 1 2 1 3 1-6 7 1 2 3 5 6 5     3-5-3  2 1 6

23  6  6  6  3 6 6 7 8-9 8 6 3  6   6   6 7 8  10  10

63  6  6  6 3 6 6 7  8-9 8 6 3 5 6 7 8 10 8 6 5 3 2 1 6

23  6  6  6  3 5 6 7 8-9 8 6 3  6   6   6 7 8  10  10

63  6  6  6   3 6 6 7  8-9 8 6 3 5 6 7 8 10 8 6 5 3 2 1 6

6-#4 3    3 #4-3 2    1 3-2 1     5 7-2-7 6

6-#4 3    3 #4-3 2    1 3-2 1     5 7-2-7 6  

3 6 6 56 7 8   3 5  6 5   5   8 6 5 3 2 1 2

3 6 3 3 6  6   8 6 7 8 6 8 5 2 3  3  3 2 1 2 3 2 1 5 6

6  8 6 5 3     2-3 5 3 2 1 2 3  2-1 6    2-1 7 6

3 6 6 56 7 8   3 5  6 5   5   8 6 5 3 2 1 2

3 6 3 3 6  6   8 6 7 8 6 8 5 2 3  3  3 2 1 2 3 2 1 5 6

6  8 6 5 3     2-3 5 3 2 1 2 3 1 2-1 6    2-1 7 6

I have added a pdf called Children's Songs to this post. It has hundreds of songs geared to the young transcribed into scale (interval) numbers as in the banjo neck charts.I have removed all of the lyrics for copyright concerns, wish I didn't have to because it was even better but you can easily find them on the internet. If you can play thru a lot of these songs you will have a good idea how melodies are composed and hopefully be able to pick them out by ear from then on by yourself. Many of the songs have not been done and I would welcome input as to what the intervals are from posters. I would think that it would be like a puzzle to solve and be very good for your musical ears and to get feedback from fellow posters. Also if their is a song you would like, for example not may bluegrass songs here, give them a try and we will end up with a Bluegrass Fake Book Of Melodies that I think would be awesome. I could eventually put together everyone's postings in this new pdf.

As an aside, these simple little song renditions are loved by kids because the melody is right there and because of that they usually just start singing right along. You could play the world's fastest, bestest, coolest,..... banjo solo for them and they would not like it as much as these little melodies. So if there are any children in your realm I recommend playing some of these tunes for them, maybe you'll give them a love for the banjo and make future banjo players out of them.

p.s. This system of notation transfers to absolutely any instrument in any key!

Chords in Keys Chart

Get used to playing songs where the chords are already shown in the appropriate key and order and transfer them to the banjo using this chart. Don't play anything but the numbers shown in this diagram structure on the left of the chart one note only at a time. You will be basically making the banjo into a bass and by doing so will eventually be able to "hear the changes" because this is such a consistent model for the ear to recognize the pitch distances.

Edited by - mmuussiiccaall on 03/10/2014 09:05:20

Chords in Keys	Children's Songs	Mary Had ---	3 tunings
G tuning

kmwaters - Posted - 02/06/2014:  11:18:14

I could chew on this for days. Cannot grasp how you put those charts together. Tell me what the first neck on the left is saying to me and maybe I will catch on. I see circles and triangles with many numbers and just don't get it. Can you talk in specifics about maybe just the first few frets starting at the top? Thanks.

Factoid for today: Zoltan Kodaly - musical method author - married 48 years, and then a year after his wife died he married a 19 year old music student of his at the Franz Liszt Academy where he taught. Nine years later and still married - he died. 

Edited by - kmwaters on 02/06/2014 11:29:19

torpedo - Posted - 02/06/2014:  11:50:43

Why do I have to go half-way from here to Buffalo to read this post. It seems very interesting and I have the idea down, especially after reading Pat Clouds book. But I have to keep moving the page to the right for quite a ways to read an entire line and then move back and start again. Is there any button on this keyboard that will shorten the width of the page?

n1wr - Posted - 02/06/2014:  11:51:58

Rick:  Great way to present music.  The second pdf seems to be the same as the first.  I was expecting to see the tunings shown for example C tuning would be C-G-B-D.  Am I missing something?

I know - you're just trying to see if we're paying attention!

Thanks.

CliffK - Posted - 02/06/2014:  11:59:29

Hey Ken,
the numbers are the note intervals in the scale; e.g., 1st string open D note is the fifth scale tone in G major scale. "L" means the interval is at a lower octave. The triangle is an alternative position from the the note in a circle, i.e., in G, you can play the third tone B as an open second string, or you can play it on the 3rd string at the fourth fret.

mmuussiiccaall - Posted - 02/06/2014:  12:05:45

Whew! I got it fixed, I think?

torpedo - Posted - 02/06/2014:  12:08:44

Wow! thank you, that's much better.

kmwaters - Posted - 02/06/2014:  12:34:06

Thanks Cliff - that clarification helps. People use numbers for too many things. Fingers, frets, notes on the scale, yada yada. Oh and I forgot the Nashville numbering system too!! 

Edited by - kmwaters on 02/06/2014 12:35:35

CliffK - Posted - 02/06/2014:  12:46:16

Yes, too many numbers. Same numbers for scale tones and chord intervals gets confusing as well. At least the Nashville system is only dealing with chords (as far as my understanding of it goes). There are only 12 numbers, but lots of applications, designations, permutations, slices and dices. Then there are the different modes where it's like playing 3D chess.

kmwaters - Posted - 02/06/2014:  12:48:21

After a workout on chords and theory I cannot remember my phone number.

CliffK - Posted - 02/06/2014:  16:40:27

I just remembered about the 13th chords, so I guess there are more than 12 numbers for chord construction.

WildJimbo - Posted - 02/06/2014:  18:57:58

What would be awesome is if you put up a video explaining all this. It'd be great to see how you go about all of it.

Otherwise, for some bonehead like me it's just a bunch of confusing words that doesn't show me anything remotely musical...

stetix01 - Posted - 02/06/2014:  19:31:45

I still dont get it.  Would love a video too.

toadlips - Posted - 02/06/2014:  19:44:36

Thanks for the info Rick. I think its got me pointed in the right direction.

Poco50 - Posted - 02/07/2014:  04:50:09

Im interested in trying to understand what you are talking about, but im having a hard time grasping it, is there any way you could do  short video explaining what you mean on the banjo itself. I made a mistake by not going past the 3rd grade, so reading and comprehending is seriously lacking.

Thank you....Gary......

Merc70 - Posted - 02/07/2014:  05:50:14

Thanks for these maps, they are pretty cool.

I tend to think in intervals and numbers and while I'm not very good at it, I'm even worse at remembering letters.

So if you tell me that a melody is 3,2,1,3, etc., I do better with that.  I can also easily move keys with that.

I actually think western music should be taught exclusively with numbers.  This sharp and flat stuff is just more confusing than learning to count 1-12.

For those who asked for a video.  Try this exercise with the material posted.

Open the first pdf and look at the first fret board picture.  Tune your banjo to open G tuning (standard tuning, you are probably already there).

Play these numbers anywhere you can find them, don't worry about circles and triangles 3 2 1 2 3 3 3   2 2 2   3 5 5

This is Mary Had a Litle Lamb, so try to make it sound like that melody.

After a while, staying on the first diagram in the first pdf, try to use some other circles / triangles with the same numbers.  They are the same note, just found elsewhere and it should still sound like Mary Had a Little Lamb.

Now move onto diagram #2 where you will retune your banjo (tuning is shown at the nut in the picture).  Play the same numbers again but follow diagram #2.  You will be in a different key, but it will still sound like Mary Had a Little Lamb.

WildJimbo - Posted - 02/07/2014:  09:19:16

Ok, big mean ugly post...

Seems to me like there's a whole lot of thinking and no much playing going on here.  I've been teaching banjo since 1979 and I've never once had to chart out Mary Had a Little Lamb for any of my students.  I've never had to draw diagrams of the fingerboard or do anything like that to help folks find melodies that they were familiar with. 

How do my students learn melodies?  We hunt and peck them until we find them.  There's a lot of good comes from that too.  All of the positive and negative reinforcement from that process goes a long way and the experience gained from it trumps any amount of reading and memorizing.

One would be better served to have spent whatever time they spent reading and trying to decode all of the above by just taking the same amount of time and trying to figure out a melody.  At some point you're just going to have to listen to what you're doing. 



Fact is, I've known too many "teachers" like the OP, because always I wind up with their students. 

Edited by - WildJimbo on 02/07/2014 09:20:56

Merc70 - Posted - 02/07/2014:  10:17:10

quote:

---

Originally posted by WildJimbo

Ok, big mean ugly post...

 

Seems to me like there's a whole lot of thinking and no much playing going on here.  I've been teaching banjo since 1979 and I've never once had to chart out Mary Had a Little Lamb for any of my students.  I've never had to draw diagrams of the fingerboard or do anything like that to help folks find melodies that they were familiar with. 

How do my students learn melodies?  We hunt and peck them until we find them.  There's a lot of good comes from that too.  All of the positive and negative reinforcement from that process goes a long way and the experience gained from it trumps any amount of reading and memorizing.

One would be better served to have spent whatever time they spent reading and trying to decode all of the above by just taking the same amount of time and trying to figure out a melody.  At some point you're just going to have to listen to what you're doing. 



Fact is, I've known too many "teachers" like the OP, because always I wind up with their students. 

---

I can imagine your students could reasonably peck around and find nursery rhyme melodies, but my guess is none of them ever became awesome banjo players without figuring out this fretboard picture one way or the other.  Maybe it wasn't written down, but it got into their head somehow.

Or maybe I'm completely wrong on that. I'm sure there are many different ways for somebody to come around to having a true understanding of the banjo and how to make awesome noise with it.

Jody Hughes - Posted - 02/07/2014:  11:09:44

There is a two fold process that occurs when locating melodies.

1)You have to have the song in your head so well that you can hum/sing it

2)You have to be able to find it on the fingerboard.



I see no reason that one cannot do this without thinking about numbers. I do think the number system is useful (especially in Chord Theory) and as you get into really complicated melodies that have to be transposed. Even in those cases I would not think about every note as a number, just little "trigger points".  In addition, the better your ear the less you have to do that even.



However, in the case of Mary Had a Little Lamb or Amazing Grace I think that is SERIOUS overkill. TAB to those melodies should not be needed for any reason. The student should just sing/hum the tune and peck for it on the fingerboard on one (or two strings). This process increases what I call the hand-to-ear coordination. It will be more work than reading it but more beneficial.  If the student is at the point they can hum/sing it, then finding it should not be a problem.



I also don't like the labeling of things with these numbers 11-12-13-14-15-etc. I understand the point (you are trying to say they are in a higher octave) but at the same time it's confusing from a music theory point of view because those notes aren't really 12/14's. I'm just not sure how this helps anyone gain the ability to sing/hum melodies nor build the hand-ear coordination to find them on the fingerboard.

Edited by - Jody Hughes on 02/07/2014 11:13:31

mmuussiiccaall - Posted - 02/07/2014:  13:21:23

quote:

---

Originally posted by Jody Hughes

There is a two fold process that occurs when locating melodies.

1)You have to have the song in your head so well that you can hum/sing it

2)You have to be able to find it on the fingerboard.



I see no reason that one cannot do this without thinking about numbers. I do think the number system is useful (especially in Chord Theory) and as you get into really complicated melodies that have to be transposed. Even in those cases I would not think about every note as a number, just little "trigger points".  In addition, the better your ear the less you have to do that even.



However, in the case of Mary Had a Little Lamb or Amazing Grace I think that is SERIOUS overkill. TAB to those melodies should not be needed for any reason. The student should just sing/hum the tune and peck for it on the fingerboard on one (or two strings). This process increases what I call the hand-to-ear coordination. It will be more work than reading it but more beneficial.  If the student is at the point they can hum/sing it, then finding it should not be a problem.



I also don't like the labeling of things with these numbers 11-12-13-14-15-etc. I understand the point (you are trying to say they are in a higher octave) but at the same time it's confusing from a music theory point of view because those notes aren't really 12/14's. I'm just not sure how this helps anyone gain the ability to sing/hum melodies nor build the hand-ear coordination to find them on the fingerboard.

---

Hello Jody glad to hear from you. Let me respond by first saying that a lot of experienced or "God given talented people" can sure enough get along without this number system. I didn't know about this number stuff for my first 20 years of playing music and I was great, at least in my own mind I took lessons from a famous jazz guitarist 40 years ago and he knew nothing about this system. Every week he would write out a new song for me to play that sounded awesome, he would in front of me write out the notes on staff paper without touching his instrument ( he had perfect pitch) and every week I'd go home and learn to play it 'cause when I returned in a week he wanted to hear me do it. After months of this I got up the nerve to ask him the name of some of the jazz chords that he wrote in the arrangements and he had no idea of their names or any of the theory of what he wrote out in the sheet music. Shortly after that I decided I could become a teacher since he was considered the best in the metropolitan area!  So I started on my path to teach not only how to play songs and licks to songs but also the nuts and bolts of how they are put together. You are correct that no one talks about a 14th etc. but I have studied 100's of Theory books and some of the ideas I have in my head are not in those. I've even invented complete musical languages that no one but I use to simplify a whole book down to one page. My whole theory of teaching is to distill all the theory down to the smallest logical piece of information. I have my own "book" of theory as it relates to the exact instrument that the student has in their hands, one for each instrument about 25 pages in all with all my customized charts. If  I din't do this I would be bored out my mind showing this same lick or song over and over for 45 years.

Knowing this number system opens up mind to the logic the all the melodies ever written run on the same track if you will. as a concrete use let's say it's someone's and you were asked to play happy birthday for them. I happen to know that the printed version in music books are in the key of F because that fits the vocal range of most people, men and women. I have a banjo in my hand and don't want that key so I move it up a whole step to G,close enough. Since I know this number system I know that Happy birthday starts on the 5 so I hit the first string open to give the pitch to everyone in the room and away we go! Eventually you can hear what number any song starts on with no thought about it. So all this is is a way to explain the theory and "get in the fast lane" to knowing what you are doing.

mmuussiiccaall - Posted - 02/07/2014:  13:33:10

quote:

---

Originally posted by WildJimbo

Ok, big mean ugly post...

 

Seems to me like there's a whole lot of thinking and no much playing going on here.  I've been teaching banjo since 1979 and I've never once had to chart out Mary Had a Little Lamb for any of my students.  I've never had to draw diagrams of the fingerboard or do anything like that to help folks find melodies that they were familiar with. 

How do my students learn melodies?  We hunt and peck them until we find them.  There's a lot of good comes from that too.  All of the positive and negative reinforcement from that process goes a long way and the experience gained from it trumps any amount of reading and memorizing.

One would be better served to have spent whatever time they spent reading and trying to decode all of the above by just taking the same amount of time and trying to figure out a melody.  At some point you're just going to have to listen to what you're doing. 



Fact is, I've known too many "teachers" like the OP, because always I wind up with their students. 

---

Jim I'm sorry that I have frustrated you and you have the right to totally disregard this post but I hope you stick to this because in my opinion it opens up the old adage that "music is just numbers" and it truly is. As for Mary Had a Little Lamb I just wanted a simple song that even a beginner would understand, and yes I've been asked to teach it since I teach kids as early as 5 yrs old. And matter of fact this is the system I start them with because the can count at an early age. I am experimenting with making a video in the future so until then if there are any questions I can answer shoot 'em at me, I'll try to answer them, regards, Rick

Kenneth Logsdon - Posted - 02/07/2014:  16:18:37

To me using that type of numbering seems to add another layer of rote memorization that is not needed particularly for younger students... What we/oldtimers have always used ie the Hunt and peck method is really sound (note association) on the neck itself ... Then the student knows where the actual sound is.. and the fingers will automatically go there when needed..

to illustrate... Do you think in numbers (or substitions) when you talk? No you know the sounds you want to make and just do it.. Music is the same way.. If you learn to think in music (sound/fingerboard association).. Then you can play anything you hear/internilize by listening.. almost automatically..
(dollars to doughnuts, that is what your jazz teacher was doing, he has it internalized)

toadlips - Posted - 02/07/2014:  17:09:27

Writing as a fairly inexperienced banjoplayer, what I get from the charts is a better idea of the scales and where certain notes are in relation to the neck. I can practice what the op has posted and work my way up and down the fingerboard. The way I see it a person can even change key without retuning by keeping in mind and substituting the numbering. I agree with those who say you have to have the tune in your head and especially where to find the notes on the fingerboard. This is where the pdf helps me (fingerboard). I'm willing to deal with "Mary Had A Little Lamb" to learn a bit about the scales. I'll be looking forward to part B: rolling with the melody.

Jody Hughes - Posted - 02/07/2014:  18:15:23

I do understand why you are trying to use the number system, the part I don't agree with is when you start calling them 10, 13, 14 and so forth.  

A 3rd sounds like a 3rd regardless of which octave it is in.  This is called key centered hearing.  It seems confusing to me because if we pick a song and start it on the 4th fret of the 3rd string and call that 3, then the 9th fret of the 1st string is 10...However, if the student wants to change octaves, now what was originally called 10 is now 3.  This problem gets multiplied when we change keys because we have more numbers to visualize (7 versus 16+).  What happens if the song has an extreme range and goes way up the neck, are we going to call the next 3rd the 17th?  I just don't see how that simplifies things because we are now dealing with even more numbers to remember.

If we use labels I think it makes more sense if you pick a LABEL that's consistent with the way it sounds within the context of a key.  We certainly don't hear 3 vs 10 vs 17, we just hear 3rd and given how high or low it is we find the appropriate place for the note.  Students need to be able to hear whether something ascended or descended rather than have multiple names for the same sound.  I have occasionally ran into students that could not hear this.  Using their ears to figure stuff out is how they corrected that problem.

I almost think your system would work better if you just stuck to the solfeggio names (although most people that play the banjo don't want to learn that system they just want to play).  At least then do/re is always do/re.  They do a similar thing in Indian music where the music is all learned by ear and they learn the sounds on the instrument via a "solfeggio"-type system.  I don't think there is anything wrong with coming up with labels provided they make sense aurally.

I also want to know why one would give a student this notation to Mary Had a Little Lamb rather than show them how to start the song and allow them to find it themselves on one string?  You are calling it the fast track but most people can hunt/peck their way to Mary Had a Little Lamb faster than they can remember 3212333, etc.  Lastly, what they would learn via the hunt/peck method would better serve them in the long run towards learning even more melodies by ear.

Edited by - Jody Hughes on 02/07/2014 18:18:51

mmuussiiccaall - Posted - 02/07/2014:  18:17:03

quote:

---

Originally posted by Kenneth Logsdon

To me using that type of numbering seems to add another layer of rote memorization that is not needed particularly for younger students... What we/oldtimers have always used ie the Hunt and peck method is really sound (note association) on the neck itself ... Then the student knows where the actual sound is.. and the fingers will automatically go there when needed..



to illustrate... Do you think in numbers (or substitions) when you talk? No you know the sounds you want to make and just do it.. Music is the same way.. If you learn to think in music (sound/fingerboard association).. Then you can play anything you hear/internilize by listening.. almost automatically..

(dollars to doughnuts, that is what your jazz teacher was doing, he has it internalized)

---

Thanks for your input Kenneth, there's a lot more about this method to come and one of them is that in the beginning I give all the numbers to the song and then as I see their ears develop I start leaving out numbers. Because they see the numbers on the neck they know what track to run on not hunt and peck. And yes I do think in numbers if I'm improvising because I know the tonal quality of all of the numbers. Mostly though the music just falls out of my hands which is the most enjoyable part about playing an instrument. As for my jazz teacher no one could touch his playing because of his perfect pitch. He could effortlessly play whatever he heard in his head, not your average player.

mmuussiiccaall - Posted - 02/07/2014:  18:40:20

Hello Jody, hopefully I answered some of your points as our posts kind of crossed at the same time. As for the octave I teach the students that they are always found by either adding or subtracting 7. regards Rick

CliffK - Posted - 02/07/2014:  19:42:56

Interval numbers are very useful for communicating musical ideas between musicians, particularly for chord progressions, hence the Nashville number system. The chord names and note names change from key to key, but the interval numbers are the same. 1-4-5 is 1-4-5 regardless of the key. These are patterns that can be easily expressed as the numbered intervals they represent, as are scales and chord structures. The numbers are abstract and can be superimposed onto any key a song is in. Also for harmony, for chord building, if you want to play a maj7 chord you don't need to look at a chart or hunt-and-peck until it sounds right, just find the seventh scale tone, or play a 7th chord and raise the flat 7th tone a half-step to a major 7 tone, but you need to understand which note is the 7th tone in the scale. How could one play in different modes if one doesn't see the intervals in a scale? You certainly don't need the theory to make great music, but how can it not help to see music in this way?

Edited by - CliffK on 02/07/2014 19:46:18

mmuussiiccaall - Posted - 03/08/2014:  07:43:23

I have added a pdf called Children's Songs to my original post on this thread. It has hundreds of songs geared to the young transcribed into scale (interval) numbers as in the banjo neck charts.I have removed all of the lyrics for copyright concerns, wish I didn't have to because it was even better but you can easily find them on the internet. If you can play thru a lot of these songs you will have a good idea how melodies are composed and hopefully be able to pick them out by ear from then on by yourself. Many of the songs have not been done and I would welcome input as to what the intervals are from posters. I would think that it would be like a puzzle to solve and be very good for your musical ears and to get feedback from fellow posters. Also if their is a song you would like, for example not may bluegrass songs here, give them a try and we will end up with a Bluegrass Fake Book Of Melodies that I think would be awesome. I could eventually put together everyone's postings in this new pdf.

As an aside, these simple little song renditions are loved by kids because the melody is right there and because of that they usually just start singing right along. You could play the world's fastest, bestest, coolest,..... banjo solo for them and they would not like it as much as these little melodies. So if there are any children in your realm I recommend playing some of these tunes for them, maybe you'll give them a love for the banjo and make future banjo players out of them.

p.s. This system of notation transfers to absolutely any instrument in any key!

Merc70 - Posted - 03/08/2014:  08:52:31

Thanks for doing this Rick.  After some of the other threads going on here I went back last night and tried to pick out Happy Birthday.  It wasn't successful, but nonetheless I'll keep working on some of these simple kid songs.

Having them in the number system is so helpful, because I frequently attempt to just sing in an unknown key.  So I have to use the number system to have any hope of figuring this stuff out.

Rich Weill - Posted - 03/08/2014:  12:23:41

I'm with Jim, Jody, and Ken on this.  Following a bunch of numbers on one chart, cross referenced to an interval diagram on another, teaches you to follow a bunch of numbers.  The skill you're trying to develop is connecting the tune in your head directly to your fingers on the fingerboard -- without first going through a piece of paper.  Hunt and peck starts to develop that direct ear-finger coordination better than anything else.

And if you follow John Boulding's advice -- and work from the template chord shapes provide -- you're essentially using actual finger "diagrams" that help develop that direct coordination, without adding any intermediate layer.

Let me add one more element:  different keys.  What happens when you're required to play the same melody in a different key -- E, for example, and don't want to capo at the 9th fret?  If you're learned from a chart (in G), you'll be lost.  If you've developed the coordination out of chord shapes, you'll capo at the 4th fret, play the song out of C, F, and G chord shapes, and find the melody from those shapes.

Granted, there may be people who need to have all of these notes spelled out for them.  But I strongly suspect that there are many more who think they need these kinds of charts, because they lack the confidence to go without them.  Who think that "playing by ear" is some mystical talent reserved for the very few, and doubt they could ever do it.  It isn't.  The hardest thing about playing by ear is overcoming the nagging doubt that you're not talented enough to play anything by ear.  It simply is not true.

mmuussiiccaall - Posted - 03/08/2014:  15:09:37

quote:

---

Originally posted by Rich Weill: Let me add one more element:  different keys.  What happens when you're required to play the same melody in a different key -- E, for example, and don't want to capo at the 9th fret?  If you're learned from a chart (in G), you'll be lost.  If you've developed the coordination out of chord shapes, you'll capo at the 4th fret, play the song out of C, F, and G chord shapes, and find the melody from those shapes.

---

This statement tells me that you and probably the others you've mentioned don't have a full understanding of all this interval stuff. If for example you want to play in a different key like E as you said you could capo 4 and play it out of C and use the exact same numbers on the C chart as the key of G. If song X starts on a 3 it will do that in all the 12 keys, no need to hunt and peck to find the first note, this system gives you a track to run on that can be analyzed not just vaguely described as being somewhere around a chord form. Also when it is understood it opens up the understanding of all the theory. As always if I can answer any questions shoot back at me.

Rich Weill - Posted - 03/08/2014:  15:46:50

quote:

---

Originally posted by mmuussiiccaall

quote:

---

Originally posted by Rich Weill: Let me add one more element:  different keys.  What happens when you're required to play the same melody in a different key -- E, for example, and don't want to capo at the 9th fret?  If you're learned from a chart (in G), you'll be lost.  If you've developed the coordination out of chord shapes, you'll capo at the 4th fret, play the song out of C, F, and G chord shapes, and find the melody from those shapes.

---

This statement tells me that you and probably the others you've mentioned don't have a full understanding of all this interval stuff. If for example you want to play in a different key like E as you said you could capo 4 and play it out of C and use the exact same numbers on the C chart as the key of G. If song X starts on a 3 it will do that in all the 12 keys, no need to hunt and peck to find the first note, this system gives you a track to run on that can be analyzed not just vaguely described as being somewhere around a chord form. Also when it is understood it opens up the understanding of all the theory. As always if I can answer any questions shoot back at me.

---

Sorry.  I just hear the tune and my finger goes to the proper fret.  No fuss, no muss, no numbers.  I could go back and figure out what notes I'm playing -- but why bother?  I'd rather go on to the next song.

Merc70 - Posted - 03/08/2014:  17:15:06

Sorry.  I just hear the tune and my finger goes to the proper fret.  No fuss, no muss, no numbers.  I could go back and figure out what notes I'm playing -- but why bother?  I'd rather go on to the next song.

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This confuses me.  Do you do this only for banjo sounds or can you do this to any music?  Do you have perfect pitch?

I'd like to watch your process for learning a new tune.

Rich Weill - Posted - 03/08/2014:  18:03:46

quote:

---

Originally posted by Merc70

Sorry.  I just hear the tune and my finger goes to the proper fret.  No fuss, no muss, no numbers.  I could go back and figure out what notes I'm playing -- but why bother?  I'd rather go on to the next song.

---

 This confuses me.  Do you do this only for banjo sounds or can you do this to any music?  Do you have perfect pitch?

I'd like to watch your process for learning a new tune.

---

You are proving the point I made above.  Anyone who thinks you need "perfect pitch" before you can pick out a tune by ear has psyched him/herself out of learning to play by ear before getting started.  "Perfect pitch" has nothing to do with it.  If you can hum a familiar tune fairly accurately, or recognize a tune when you hear it, you have enough of a musical ear to play by ear.

Finding the proper notes on the fretboard is like typing.  After a while, you don't have to stare at the keys on a typewriter or computer keyboard, your fingers know where they are.

My first summer during college, I got a job that required me to type a lot of letters.  Day after day, typing letters.  I had never taken a typing class.  I only used two fingers on each hand.  Still do, actually.  But by the end of that summer, I didn't have to look at the keyboard in order to type.  My fingers automatically reached for the correct keys.

Although, if you asked me to recite the letters in order on the keyboad, I probably couldn't.  [They call keyboard lettering QWERTY, so I guess those are the first six, but what comes next is anybody's guess.]  Finding them automatically with your fingers has little, if anything, to do with knowing them by name.

Why should a banjo be any different?

Edited by - Rich Weill on 03/08/2014 18:17:49

Drone-X - Posted - 03/08/2014:  19:46:30

I have no business offering any kinda help since I can barely play, but Merc, man, just get your banjo out and try to match notes with what you hum. It might seem impossible, but if I can do it, anyone can. Don't let anyone fool you into thinking you gotta memorize a bunch of stuff first. Heck, I can't tell you the names of my strings without looking at the back of a string pack, but I can pick out simple stuff.

mmuussiiccaall - Posted - 03/08/2014:  19:54:09

quote:

---

Originally posted by Merc70

Sorry.  I just hear the tune and my finger goes to the proper fret.  No fuss, no muss, no numbers.  I could go back and figure out what notes I'm playing -- but why bother?  I'd rather go on to the next song.

---

 

This confuses me.  Do you do this only for banjo sounds or can you do this to any music?  Do you have perfect pitch?

I'd like to watch your process for learning a new tune.

---

A musician who continually exercises the musical ear that God gave can eventually begin to hear the distances between the notes that are played. This skill is called relative pitch and can be super-charged as in a child prodigy or suppressed as in people called tone deaf. This process can be sped up by, for example, the study of ear-training which can be done for free on many internet sites. As mentioned earlier in this thread about all of the players on this site with experience recognize the value of knowing the 1 4 and 5 chords because they can "hear the changes" and know which chord is being played in the song. 99% of them don't use this number type of relationship to figure out melodies. It becomes an "Earl didn't do that!" kind of thing  which is no help to the beginner with no musical ear yet or the more experienced player not blessed with pitch discernment. This number system that I am promoting will speed up the ear's ability to recognize what are called

the intervals which just means the distance between notes. All it is doing is giving you a track to run on instead of a blank slate called a fingerboard. Let's say you play a 1 and then play a 4, that interval is a distance up of 5 frets on a banjo no matter what key that the 1 is in. What you do in ear-training is memorize a song that has the first two notes of it as a distance of 5 up, for instance the song Here Comes The Bride. Just the first two notes mind you are all that is cared about. If you go from 1 to 5 the song could be Chim Chim Cher-ee, fist two notes only again. If you search for ear-training songs on the net you will get lots of possible songs to use for each interval. Perfect pitch was also named but that is a whole another thing that does not relate to most people, look it up.

5 finger ninja - Posted - 03/08/2014:  22:42:33

when I was a little kid, before I ever learned a chord on the guitar, there were pocket pianos. They sold them at convenience stores for about a buck. They had the major scale tones numbered and gave instructions on how to play several tunes. I still remember twinkle little star. 1155665 4433221 I wish they still sold them in stores as they were great at showing a kid introductory music theory.

Tam_Zeb - Posted - 03/09/2014:  00:02:14

quote:

---

Originally posted by mmuussiiccaall

The two attached diagrams are visual representations of where the intervals are located on a 5 string. I have posted theory in this part of the forum because it is theory related to the tunings used on the 5 string only.

My purpose for this post is to help beginners get a clearer understanding of how the melody of a song basically follows the steps of the major scale. This skill of finding the melody of a song becomes second nature to a musically mature player who works it out by ear or theory as shown here. The major scale can be represented in many ways but I will only use two here, Solfége and Roman Numerals.

DO    RE   MI    FA   SO   LA   TI   do   re    mi    fa    so   la     ti    (small case letters indicate pitches are one octave higher)

  1    2    3     4   5     6    7    8    9    10    11    12   13     14

Instrumentalists usually think in numbers while vocalists use solfége. Since I’m referring to a banjo I will use numbers.

The key that a song is played in is decided by how well the intervals fit on to the fingerboard. The wrong key can put the intervals too high up the neck or too low on the fourth string or even so low as to be unplayable (off the fingerboard).

The general theory of melodies is that they begin and end on a 1 3 5 (equal to 8 10 12 in the higher octave) interval because the accompaniment is playing a tonic chord in those places ( tonic equals the main or key chord).

There is no rule about the range (number) of intervals used to make a melody. This distance can be called the melody range of a song. For instance Old McDonald has a range of seven half-steps (frets) making it easy for a child to sing. The Star Spangled Banner on the other hand has a melody range of twenty half steps making it a challenge for most adults to sing.

The G tuning pdf shows the intervals in the commonly used keys of G C and D that are used in the standard G tuning.

The G C D tunings pdf shows the intervals in the three commonly used tunings, G tuning, C tuning and D tuning.

Numbers in circles are the usual way to play them, the numbers in triangles are the optional ways to play them for fingering ease (staying in one area, etc.). The L markings indicate a low version of the number indicated. Some times especially as listed in the key of G in G tuning it is convenient to think in this terminology to fit the intervals. Also are possible numbers like b3, b7 etc. these are located one fret lower than normal.

I and hopefully others will post songs here to be played in different keys and tunings so that the theory of this becomes clear. I would suggest that by doing a song in the different ways possible the player would see why a certain key in a certain tuning would be the most appropriate answer. Of course a small interval range song could be done in many keys.

I welcome any questions or song requests or different tunings for that matter regarding this, Rick

As an example here is the simple song Mary had a Little Lamb in tab with the interval numbers listed below. Since this is in G tuning and in the key of G it uses the G diagram.

Mary Had A Little Lamb

3 2 1 2 3 3 3   2 2 2   3 5 5   

3 2 1 2 3 3 3 3 2 2 3 2 1

Here are a couple of songs to get started:(spacing approximates rhythm)

Amazing Grace

5     8   10 8 10   9   8     6  5  

5     8    10 8 10   9    12   

10   12   10 12 10  8     5     6        6    5  

5     8    10  8 10     9    8

Oh Susanna

123 5 5 65 3 1   23 3 2 1 2  

123 5 5 65 3 1   23 3 2 2 1    

4 4 6 6   655312

123 5 5  65 3 1

23 3  2  2  1

Ballad Of Jed Clampett

5 5 8 8 8 9 10 10 10 8 9  9  5

7 7 8 9  9 7 8 9 8 6 5  

8 8 10  9 8 11 11 11 11 13

13 12  12 12 12  12 12 5 6 7 8

 

and written in the low number way

55111233312  2  5

7 712 1712165

1 1 3 2144446

65555 55567 1

The Battle Hymn Of The Republic (use the key of C in G tuning ((middle chart)) for the easiest fingering)

5 5  5 5  4 3  5 8  9 10  10 10  9 8  8 7 6   6 6   7 8   7 8   6 5  6 5   3 5         5  5 5  5 5  4 3  5 8  9 10  10 10  9 8    8    9     9    8    7    8     

5   4 3  5 8   9 10     8      6  7 8   7 8   6 5   3        5   4 3   5 8   9 10   8   8   9   9    8    7    8      

And now for a "tour de force"

Jerusalem Ridge transcript of Kenny Baker fiddle ( best out of G=Em G tuning ((Capo 5th to play in original Bill Monroe key)) ) dashs = slurs

5-6  7 1 2 3   3-4  3 2 1 1 2 1 3 1-6 7 1 2 3 5 6 5  3-2 1 3-2 1 6 5

   6 7 1 2 3   3-4  3 2 1 1 2 1 3 1-6 7 1 2 3 5 6 5 3-5-3  2 1 6

5-6 7 1 2 3   3-4  3 2 1 1 2 1 3 1-6 7 1 2 3 5 6 5  3-2 1 3-2 1 6 5

   6 7 1 2 3   3-4  3 2 1 1 2 1 3 1-6 7 1 2 3 5 6 5     3-5-3  2 1 6

23  6  6  6  3 6 6 7 8-9 8 6 3  6   6   6 7 8  10  10

63  6  6  6 3 6 6 7  8-9 8 6 3 5 6 7 8 10 8 6 5 3 2 1 6

23  6  6  6  3 5 6 7 8-9 8 6 3  6   6   6 7 8  10  10

63  6  6  6   3 6 6 7  8-9 8 6 3 5 6 7 8 10 8 6 5 3 2 1 6

6-#4 3    3 #4-3 2    1 3-2 1     5 7-2-7 6

6-#4 3    3 #4-3 2    1 3-2 1     5 7-2-7 6  

3 6 6 56 7 8   3 5  6 5   5   8 6 5 3 2 1 2

3 6 3 3 6  6   8 6 7 8 6 8 5 2 3  3  3 2 1 2 3 2 1 5 6

6  8 6 5 3     2-3 5 3 2 1 2 3  2-1 6    2-1 7 6

3 6 6 56 7 8   3 5  6 5   5   8 6 5 3 2 1 2

3 6 3 3 6  6   8 6 7 8 6 8 5 2 3  3  3 2 1 2 3 2 1 5 6

6  8 6 5 3     2-3 5 3 2 1 2 3 1 2-1 6    2-1 7 6

I have added a pdf called Children's Songs to this post. It has hundreds of songs geared to the young transcribed into scale (interval) numbers as in the banjo neck charts.I have removed all of the lyrics for copyright concerns, wish I didn't have to because it was even better but you can easily find them on the internet. If you can play thru a lot of these songs you will have a good idea how melodies are composed and hopefully be able to pick them out by ear from then on by yourself. Many of the songs have not been done and I would welcome input as to what the intervals are from posters. I would think that it would be like a puzzle to solve and be very good for your musical ears and to get feedback from fellow posters. Also if their is a song you would like, for example not may bluegrass songs here, give them a try and we will end up with a Bluegrass Fake Book Of Melodies that I think would be awesome. I could eventually put together everyone's postings in this new pdf.

As an aside, these simple little song renditions are loved by kids because the melody is right there and because of that they usually just start singing right along. You could play the world's fastest, bestest, coolest,..... banjo solo for them and they would not like it as much as these little melodies. So if there are any children in your realm I recommend playing some of these tunes for them, maybe you'll give them a love for the banjo and make future banjo players out of them.

p.s. This system of notation transfers to absolutely any instrument in any key!

---

 Hi Rick

Remember this Quote ?

quote:

---

Originally posted by mmuussiiccaall

Tam_Zeb: This is what got me started. Boy have I come on since then.

The video is fine but I would hope that erroneous info like "this is a G chord" instead of "This is a G scale shape" is not engrained into the beginner.

 

---

Well your page of numbers and charts scares the hell out of me but If someone finds your system of teaching a better way to learn to play the banjo then good luck to them.

The charts are very pretty but I would hope that erroneous info like these pages of numbers doesn't confuse the beginner into thinking this is how everyone learns to play the banjo.

I firmly believe that beginners should look at all the options available to them then decide what works best for them.

For me it was the Murphy Method. It is easy to grasp, the teacher is excellent, it is a natural and comfortable way to progress, you learn the basics and develop your skills as you study in a structured lesson plan building on the knowledge and skills you learned in the previous lesson. But if your students can figure out how to play the banjo from a page of numbers well I take my hat off to them.  I just find more it enjoyable watching and listening to a great teacher teach me how to play. Then again I was never any good  with math at school. 

With regard to the "G Chord" what you actually see on that clip is an edited version of the lesson. Murphy explains to her students that what she is teaching a partial chord commonly used in Scruggs style.

The Murphy Method doesn't work for everyone, but hundreds of beginners have found it works for them. If your a beginner struggling to make sense of Ricks numbers jump over to Google and type in Murphy Method follow the links and you'll soon find a great way to learn how to play the banjo.

Edited by - Tam_Zeb on 03/09/2014 00:16:51

overhere - Posted - 03/09/2014:  01:33:22

Interviewer; " Earl what roll do you use for the first part of Foggy Mountain Breakdown"?........ Earl scratches his head and smiles that sheepish Earl smile..."what's a roll"? he asks

Edited by - overhere on 03/09/2014 01:34:52

Merc70 - Posted - 03/09/2014:  07:59:07

quote:

---

Originally posted by Drone-X

I have no business offering any kinda help since I can barely play, but Merc, man, just get your banjo out and try to match notes with what you hum. It might seem impossible, but if I can do it, anyone can. Don't let anyone fool you into thinking you gotta memorize a bunch of stuff first. Heck, I can't tell you the names of my strings without looking at the back of a string pack, but I can pick out simple stuff.

---

Fortunately for me, I can't actually remember stuff very well so I will eventually be forced to know it by ear.  It is my only choice.  But I also understand numbers better than letters because the numbers represent the intervals and that is what we actually hear.  Specifying music with letters just doesn't click for me.  Now of course, cutting out the numbers and just hearing the sounds and knowing where they are on the fret board is a great place to be.  But how does one get there?  we have to try to pick out things and see if they sound right - but my ear is not good enough to even know if they are right.  So I need reference material to check my results (usually wrong) and I prefer numbers since I have no clue what key I might be in, but I can tell you what intervals I am playing. 

The other failure point I have is that many times I sing or hum a noise that isn't even one of the 12 notes.  It is somewhere in between.  That screws me up too.  I'll keep at it though I assume at some point I'll make a breakthrough.

DrBillM - Posted - 03/09/2014:  10:27:17

Merc- I too am a note splitter. I added the Pano phone app- the free one that mmmmusi.... suggested and found that I "sing" several sliding tones in rapid succession. Sort of a shifting, oscillating noise. I also found that with some effort, and visual feedback, I could produce and briefly hold a recognized note. Not sure how that is going to help yet but it is a change. Trying not to get psyched out and trying to hear the encouragement that anybody can do it eventually, but I too tire of the " just sing a nursery rhyme...." message.

Merc70 - Posted - 03/09/2014:  11:20:56

Dr Bill-I think singing is like learning to make chords.  You have to train your muscles to make discrete positions in space.  I have noticed that I am getting better at finding notes.  I can't necessarily make any given note on demand, maybe that is the next iteration.

 

mmuussiiccaall - Posted - 03/09/2014:  14:17:09

Here's one of my favorites!

Fox On The Run : Country Gentlemen key of B = G chart (capo 4)

youtube.com/watch?v=xjQRzH-S_JM

melody =

2 3   3   3 2    2 1 2    2  1 6 1  1 2   2 2 3-2  2 5 6 1   1 1 repeat line

6   6 6     1  1 1    4  4 4  6  6 6   5  5 3

6   1 1  6 5 1   1 2   2 1   7 1  3 4 4  4 4 3-1   1 1  1-2 2  2   2

5 5 1   1 6  5  1  1 2 2 1 7 1    6  1 1  6  5-1  1 2 1 b3-2   1 1

Chords =

  intro     1, 1 5, 4, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1,

chorus    1, 5, 2m, 4, 2m, 5, 4, 1, 1, 1, 5, 2m, 4, 2m, 5, 4, 1, 1, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 1, 1,

banjo fill  1, 1, 4, 1, 1,

verse       4, 1, 5, 1, 4, 1, 2, 5, 5, 4, 1, 5, 1, 4, 1, 5, 1, 1,

solo         1, 1, 4, 1, 1, 4, 1, 5, 1, 4, 1, 5, 1, 1, 1, 1,

Jack Baker - Posted - 03/09/2014:  14:26:04

Rick and Tam,

I do respect and appreciate the tremendous amount of time and work you put into your examples of how to use chord progessions in songs but why not put your progressions for songs in measure form? 

This repeated rows of number system is very difficult for me to read and make sense of. I know exactly what you are both are trying to demonstrate but wouldn't it be clearer to just put these progressions into a sensible tab/notation form using measures and state above the measure which song is being addressed and so on?...Jack

---

Edited by - Jack Baker on 03/09/2014 14:32:27

mmuussiiccaall - Posted - 03/09/2014:  14:43:56

quote:

---

Originally posted by Jack Baker

Rick

and Tam,

I do respect and appreciate the tremendous amount of time and work you put into your examples of how to use chord progessions in songs but why not put your progressions for songs in measure form? 

This repeated rows of number system is very difficult for me to read and make sense of. I know exactly what you are both are trying to demonstrate but wouldn't it be clearer to just put these progressions into a sensible tab/notation form using measures and state above the measure which song is being addressed and so on?...Jack

---

 

Thanks Jack can you give me and example? Just a snippet!

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Jack Baker - Posted - 03/09/2014:  14:50:15

Rick,

Surely you must know what I'm talking about. Just put these progressions in measure form as you would any example of music...Are you joking or are you and Tam actually putting in every interval and not chord progressions or, are you actually putting your examples using the Nashville No. system. You'll have half of the BHO members on antidepressants. Jack

quote:

---

Edited by - Jack Baker on 03/09/2014 14:55:14

Tam_Zeb - Posted - 03/09/2014:  14:54:01

quote:

---

Originally posted by Jack Baker

Rick and Tam,

I do respect and appreciate the tremendous amount of time and work you put into your examples of how to use chord progessions in songs but why not put your progressions for songs in measure form? 

This repeated rows of number system is very difficult for me to read and make sense of. I know exactly what you are both are trying to demonstrate but wouldn't it be clearer to just put these progressions into a sensible tab/notation form using measures and state above the measure which song is being addressed and so on?...Jack

---

 

---

 Hi Jack

This numbering system confuses me too. I'm just sticking with video lessons and TAB.

mmuussiiccaall - Posted - 03/09/2014:  14:59:52

quote:

---

Originally posted by mmuussiiccaall

Here's one of my favorites!

Fox On The Run : Country Gentlemen key of B = G chart (capo 4)

youtube.com/watch?v=xjQRzH-S_JM

melody =

2 3   3   3 2    2 1 2    2  1 6 1  1 2   2 2 3-2  2 5 6 1   1 1 repeat line

6   6 6     1  1 1    4  4 4  6  6 6   5  5 3

6   1 1  6 5 1   1 2   2 1   7 1  3 4 4  4 4 3-1   1 1  1-2 2  2   2

5 5 1   1 6  5  1  1 2 2 1 7 1    6  1 1  6  5-1  1 2 1 b3-2   1 1

Chords =

  intro     1, 1 5, 4, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1,

chorus    1, 5, 2m, 4, 2m, 5, 4, 1, 1, 1, 5, 2m, 4, 2m, 5, 4, 1, 1, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 1, 1,

banjo fill  1, 1, 4, 1, 1,

verse       4, 1, 5, 1, 4, 1, 2, 5, 5, 4, 1, 5, 1, 4, 1, 5, 1, 1,

solo         1, 1, 4, 1, 1, 4, 1, 5, 1, 4, 1, 5, 1, 1, 1, 1,

---

Yeah Jack the red is the individual melody notes as sung and the black is the chord progression with each comma being a measure.  ( Tam has nothing to do with the numbers as stated)

dkr - Posted - 03/09/2014:  15:02:53

quote:

---

Originally posted by DrBillM

Merc- I too am a note splitter. I added the Pano phone app- the free one that mmmmusi.... suggested and found that I "sing" several sliding tones in rapid succession. Sort of a shifting, oscillating noise. I also found that with some effort, and visual feedback, I could produce and briefly hold a recognized note. Not sure how that is going to help yet but it is a change. Trying not to get psyched out and trying to hear the encouragement that anybody can do it eventually, but I too tire of the " just sing a nursery rhyme...." message.

---

Merc and bill, me too.  Now that jody convinced me to hunt and peck, I find that when I try all the notes to see what note I'm singing it isn't there...so I raise or lower my sung melody note, and it fits one ive picked and it sounds great...so hunt and peck for me not only is training me to find the note not the banjo, but also my singing.