britcarfan - Posted - 02/07/2014:  11:00:34

I have called several places and it looks like I'll have to have a tone ring made. My question is until I can find someone to do that would a tone ring made from soft copper work? Or would it just sound bad.

Fathand - Posted - 02/07/2014:  12:18:08

I have heard copper sounds bad. 1/2" Steel rod would sound better but would be heavy and hard to roll. 1/2" Steel tube might be a decent choice. Cold Rolled or Stainless??

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TB-4 Guy - Posted - 02/07/2014:  12:18:46

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Originally posted by britcarfan

I have called several places and it looks like I'll have to have a tone ring made. My question is until I can find someone to do that would a tone ring made from soft copper work? Or would it just sound bad.

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I would use bronze. It's readily available from metal supply companies. It would be less work for whoever makes it to use bronze as opposed to pure copper. Copper is difficult to machine in the first place.

A bar of bronze of the appropriate length could be formed into a circle on a ring forming machine and then TIG welded together at the seam. Then it could be machined to dimension. Bronze machines beautifully. I don't know the physics of the matter, but there must be a reason for the widespread use of bronze in both bells and tone rings.

Fathand - Posted - 02/07/2014:  12:22:19

Bendable Copper tube can be bent by hand. Why would we be machining?

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Originally posted by TB-4 Guy

quote:

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Originally posted by britcarfan

I have called several places and it looks like I'll have to have a tone ring made. My question is until I can find someone to do that would a tone ring made from soft copper work? Or would it just sound bad.

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I would use bronze. It's readily available from metal supply companies. It would be less work for whoever makes it to use bronze as opposed to pure copper. Copper is difficult to machine in the first place.

A bar of bronze of the appropriate length could be formed into a circle on a ring forming machine and then TIG welded together at the seam. Then it could be machined to dimension. Bronze machines beautifully. I don't know the physics of the matter, but there must be a reason for the widespread use of bronze in both bells and tone rings.

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TB-4 Guy - Posted - 02/07/2014:  12:33:01

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Originally posted by Fathand

Bendable Copper tube can be bent by hand. Why would we be machining?

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Originally posted by TB-4 Guy

quote:

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Originally posted by britcarfan

I have called several places and it looks like I'll have to have a tone ring made. My question is until I can find someone to do that would a tone ring made from soft copper work? Or would it just sound bad.

---

I would use bronze. It's readily available from metal supply companies. It would be less work for whoever makes it to use bronze as opposed to pure copper. Copper is difficult to machine in the first place.

A bar of bronze of the appropriate length could be formed into a circle on a ring forming machine and then TIG welded together at the seam. Then it could be machined to dimension. Bronze machines beautifully. I don't know the physics of the matter, but there must be a reason for the widespread use of bronze in both bells and tone rings.

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I gues it slipped my mind that the OP wanted to have a tubular tone ring. Of course he could bend one out of hardware store tubing if he wants. We don't know whether he intends to use the original spring and washer arrangement or not. If the springs are in place, a pure copper tube would give away. The original tube as in my '24 TB-4 is German Silver which is 80% copper but is alloyed 50-50 with nickel and zinc for the remainder to give it strength.

I don't think that pure copper would sound very good, however. It's pretty soft.

Edited by - TB-4 Guy on 02/07/2014 12:34:38

REarl - Posted - 02/07/2014:  14:06:15

Ideally I think that you would want a 1/2" tube of C90700 Tin Bronze SAE 65. However, I don't know of any tin bronze tubes under one inch. You might ask a metal supplier. However, I think that the 1/2" stainless tube might work about as well and it is a lot easier to get. As I understand it working bronze is much easier than working stainless steel so check with a machinist to find out. There are other bronzes that you could use, but try and avoid any with a lot of lead in them. The lead is not a danger, but I have read that lead is a bad element to have in a tone producing metal.

Fathand - Posted - 02/08/2014:  06:38:21

TB4 Guy has stated that his is Copper Zinc Nickel alloy. Since Brass is already a Copper Zinc Alloy and we know that brass makes reasonable tone hoops, Brass is also easy to solder and work. I would be trying that.

1/2" x.065 Brass tube is available here for about $5.00 a foot.  onlinemetals.com/merchant.cfm?...op_cat=79

You will need 3 feet once you can find someone to roll it.  The small Harbor Freight rollers will not do 1/2", I have adpated mine and still can only do max 3/8".

quote:

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Originally posted by REarl

Ideally I think that you would want a 1/2" tube of C90700 Tin Bronze SAE 65. However, I don't know of any tin bronze tubes under one inch. You might ask a metal supplier. However, I think that the 1/2" stainless tube might work about as well and it is a lot easier to get. As I understand it working bronze is much easier than working stainless steel so check with a machinist to find out. There are other bronzes that you could use, but try and avoid any with a lot of lead in them. The lead is not a danger, but I have read that lead is a bad element to have in a tone producing metal.

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TB-4 Guy - Posted - 02/08/2014:  07:25:38

quote:

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Originally posted by Fathand

TB4 Guy has stated that his is Copper Zinc Nickel alloy. Since Brass is already a Copper Zinc Alloy and we know that brass makes reasonable tone hoops, Brass is also easy to solder and work. I would be trying that.

1/2" x.065 Brass tube is available here for about $5.00 a foot.  onlinemetals.com/merchant.cfm?...op_cat=79

You will need 3 feet once you can find someone to roll it.  The small Harbor Freight rollers will not do 1/2", I have adpated mine and still can only do max 3/8".

quote:

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Originally posted by REarl

Ideally I think that you would want a 1/2" tube of C90700 Tin Bronze SAE 65. However, I don't know of any tin bronze tubes under one inch. You might ask a metal supplier. However, I think that the 1/2" stainless tube might work about as well and it is a lot easier to get. As I understand it working bronze is much easier than working stainless steel so check with a machinist to find out. There are other bronzes that you could use, but try and avoid any with a lot of lead in them. The lead is not a danger, but I have read that lead is a bad element to have in a tone producing metal.

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Brass would also be OK. A sheet metal shop would have a tubing ring bender for most sizes. If it were me, since it's not original anyway, I would build a tone ring out of solid bronze bar stock or rod stock and machine it. I don't have a ring bender but I do have a lathe and welding equipment to close the rung and machine it. A machine shop would do that work very economically since it's probably less than an hour's work to shape on a lathe.

REarl - Posted - 02/08/2014:  10:46:28

I think that Fathand and TB-4 Guy are both correct. I suspect that the tone with the solid bar would be better, however the weight would be considerably greater. As you are doing this for your dad I suggest that you consider if he would prefer an improved tone or lighter weight. As an old man, I would suggest that if he already has a good banjo that you go with the lighter weight. The banjo I use the most is not my best banjo, it's my lightest banjo. In either case, if feasible, try and find bronze or brass with as high a tin content and as little lead as possible.

G Edward Porgie - Posted - 02/08/2014:  19:04:59

The weight on a solid bronze rod would be rather a lot, I would think, and there's really no predicting what it would sound like. The banjos I've encountered with rods were generally smaller diameter than 1/2 inch. It seems to me that a larger diameter piece of solid metal could over-emphasize the higher partials and make the banjo sound tinny, or might produce a structure so heavy the strings won't move it properly.

I'm not saying a rod definitely would screw up the acoustics, but I do believe that the original makers had something in mind when they chose a hollow tube. It could have been weight; it could have been tone, but I'm sure they didn't use a 1/2 thick ROD for a reason.

Keep in mind that this Gibson is a rather small banjo to begin with, and as such probably won't ever have a big full sound. It's built a lot more lightly than the later Mastertones, which had thicker as well as larger diameter rims, and should probably be treated as being a bit less robust. One certainly wouldn't add a big bronze rod to an 1880s metal-clad rim, and it may be the same with this little guy.

Also, I think I'd avoid stainless steel. It would be harder to work, expensive, and from what I've read, isn't easy to weld.

britcarfan - Posted - 02/10/2014:  06:56:28

I'm sorry but I need to ask another ?  I noticed that the cross section on Siminoffs web site for the style banjo I've got shows a flesh hoop. I am missing this also, if I use a newer style head will that part still be necessary?  

REarl - Posted - 02/10/2014:  08:12:57

When you get the new mylar (plastic) head it will be fully ready to mount. Your tension hoop looks fine so there shouldn't be any problem. There are three heights on the heads, high medium and low. I suspect your banjo will use a medium head, but I am not positive about that. You do need a 10 1/2" head. I wouldn't recommend a skin head.

britcarfan - Posted - 02/10/2014:  09:11:37

I thought that was the case but wanted to make sure. Going by a machine shop that is supposed to do good work this week to find out the cost of making the tone ring. Wish me luck. 

TB-4 Guy - Posted - 02/10/2014:  09:33:20

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Originally posted by REarl

When you get the new mylar (plastic) head it will be fully ready to mount. Your tension hoop looks fine so there shouldn't be any problem. There are three heights on the heads, high medium and low. I suspect your banjo will use a medium head, but I am not positive about that. You do need a 10 1/2" head. I wouldn't recommend a skin head.

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My TB-4 uses a10-1/2"  medium head. I replaced the original Rogers head when it broke. I still have it. It has a ring on it. I presume that is what is meant by a flesh ring.

I used a medium Remo plastic head. I didn't like the skin head at all. The sound is muich brighter with the Remo head and it stays pretty much the same all of the time.