jackhatfield - Posted - 12/19/2013:  10:27:39

IMO, There should be a limit to the number of tablature or rhythm track or instructional lick or arrangement video uploads a member can make in a given time period. I hate to see some guy who makes a good living in a non music field taking a source of income away from a great player or any PROFESSIONAL teacher/author.  If you really respect these great players you claim to admire, and the teachers who helped get you where you are, SUPPORT them instead of ripping them off. 

Sarge1201 - Posted - 12/19/2013:  10:36:28

You must be joking.

Texasbanjo - Posted - 12/19/2013:  11:09:35

Jack, the topic you're talking about was initiated in May of 2011 -- it's now December of 2013 -- I don't think that's putting too many tracks on BHO too often, do you, I mean, that's nearly 3 years of adding backing tracks. 

Fathand - Posted - 12/19/2013:  11:24:56

A rhythm track is only a chord progression. Chord progressions cannot be copywrited (spelling?) becasue they may fit dozens of songs.  A songwriter is not hurt by an arrangement posted so people can learn the song for their own use. If that person who learns that tune goes on to perform it for profit, the writer then benefits from receiving royalties.

OTOH, people should not post other people's copywritten arrangements.  

kwl - Posted - 12/19/2013:  11:31:46

Fathand, just because you asked, the word is copyright. Think of giving someone the "right" to perform what you wrote. The other word would then be copyrighted, not copywritten.

Best wishes, Ken

Tam_Zeb - Posted - 12/19/2013:  11:39:58

quote:

---

Originally posted by jackhatfield

IMO, There should be a limit to the number of tablature or rhythm track or instructional lick or arrangement video uploads a member can make in a given time period. I hate to see some guy who makes a good living in a non music field taking a source of income away from a great player or any PROFESSIONAL teacher/author.  If you really respect these great players you claim to admire, and the teachers who helped get you where you are, SUPPORT them instead of ripping them off. 

---

 Hi Jack

I can appreciate your frustration if times are hard. However I have given support to you many times in the past. I have also supported many other great teachers by purchasing their books, CDs and DVDs over that past five years. In addition I have been grateful to those folks who have been kind enough to give time to help me and others improve my/our knowledge and skills by submitting rhythm tracks, TAB and video clips. Please don't ask Eric to set limits on this type of free lessons and TAB. I am always happy to promote your teaching materials when newbies are seeking advice on what instructional materials to buy.

If you were to release a new intermediate/advanced level instructional DVD tomorrow I would be the first to snap it up. I already have all your books and have purchased other materials from you.

The BHO Membership - the very people who guided me to your website in the first place are the very folks you wish to place restriction on.

Think about it Jack..

Merry Christmas my friend

Edited by - Tam_Zeb on 12/19/2013 11:49:18

kmwaters - Posted - 12/19/2013:  12:13:52

What comes under "public domain"??

Fathand - Posted - 12/19/2013:  12:58:22

Thanks I always get that confused.

quote:

---

Originally posted by kwl

Fathand, just because you asked, the word is copyright. Think of giving someone the "right" to perform what you wrote. The other word would then be copyrighted, not copywritten.

Best wishes, Ken

---

Jack Baker - Posted - 12/19/2013:  13:07:50

Hi Ken and to whom it may concern,

I think Tam makes some very good points in his post. I hope members will stop worrying about this legal stuff and let Eric run his site. He's a very smart man and knows how this stuff works. I don't see him getting too upset about it .

I teach "private rights" or "copyright lawyers" everyday and they all know that the internet with with regards to private material (public domain) etc. is extremely vague at best with the growing internet. I personally don't give this stuff a minute of my time...Jack Baker

: Originally posted by kmwaters

What comes under "public domain"??

---

Edited by - Jack Baker on 12/19/2013 13:12:04

Banjophobic - Posted - 12/19/2013:  13:36:58

There's a big difference between 'ripping' off established /published works and making up free generic rhythm tracks for public consumption. Anyone has the right to make free rhythm tracks and put them here and I fail to see any correlation to established works being 'stolen'.  This is similar to, as one of my chat room friends said today, telling shade tree mechanics, plumbers, etc to 'stop working on those things...let the PROs do it all' . There will always be folks who take initiative to do their own stuff a dn it doesn't affect the sales in this regard, to 'quality' professional works.

These things take care of themselves. 

dpeters - Posted - 12/19/2013:  13:53:31

Hi Jack, Interesting thread.. Are you talking about public domain and material that no copyright?
Dave

Jack Baker - Posted - 12/19/2013:  14:53:32

Which Jack are you talking to?...Jack

quote:

---

Originally posted by dpeters

Hi Jack, Interesting thread.. Are you talking about public domain and material that no copyright?

Dave

---

NCjones - Posted - 12/19/2013:  17:07:30

"...a member can make in a given time period. "

So if I understand your complaint, It's OK to rip them off, you just have to do it at a slow pace?





"...or any PROFESSIONAL teacher/author."

I was unaware that there was any certification or licensure required to be a banjo teacher or author.   Can't just anyone technically teach banjo just by saying they are accepting students?   Could I just change my hangout status from "just starting out" to "teaching" and call myself a "professional"?   What would be your legal recourse if I did that?





I agree with your idea, but I think we should leave federal copyright enforcement to the appropriate authorities.   Technically,  Anyone can claim copyright infringement.   It isn't a copyright infringement until a judge says it is. 

quote:

---

Originally posted by jackhatfield

IMO, There should be a limit to the number of tablature or rhythm track or instructional lick or arrangement video uploads a member can make in a given time period. I hate to see some guy who makes a good living in a non music field taking a source of income away from a great player or any PROFESSIONAL teacher/author.  If you really respect these great players you claim to admire, and the teachers who helped get you where you are, SUPPORT them instead of ripping them off. 

---

dpeters - Posted - 12/19/2013:  17:43:08

quote:

---

Originally posted by jbaker7

Which Jack are you talking to?...Jack

quote:

---

Originally posted by dpeters

Hi Jack, Interesting thread.. Are you talking about public domain and material that has no copyright?

Dave

Sorry, (Jack Hatfield).. I was just wondering, because one of the main advantages of Internet based forums such as the BHO is the dissemination of information to help users improve and gain knowledge in their chosen fields. So by restricting the legally shared content you are in fact removing the point of having these Internet meeting places. Of course illegally shared content is completely different..

Dave

jackhatfield - Posted - 12/20/2013:  08:25:39

Sherry: say
Jack, the topic you're talking about was initiated in May of 2011 -- it's now December of 2013 -- I don't think that's putting too many tracks on BHO too often, do you, I mean, that's nearly 3 years of adding backing tracks.

I reply: If I remember correctly, there are HUNDREDS of tracks in that one thread, posted by one guy. He posts a dozen at a time. I am looking at what the advent Youtube has done to instructional DVD sales…practically destroyed the market…and suggesting that BHO can do it's part to try to curb this trend in other related fields such as backing tracks. In the related post ion that actual forum I used Ron Block and Jim Mills as examples because these are real guys out there making a living in the banjo world who have instructional DVD's on the market. When someone goes to Youtube to earn one of their arrangements instead of buying their DVD, they are literally taking money out of their pockets and the guys like me who sell their DVD's. BHO, by allowing a VERY FEW people to post an obscene number of tracks (we are talking about less than .0125% of its members BTW) is enabling this kind of activity. As I said, I have NO problem with the average member sharing a few tracks or coming up with a neat tab arrangement (owned to not) and sharing it...but HUNDREDS by one individual? I'm not concerned about huge corporations who own song copyrights, who lost a fraction of a penny when someone does not buy a DVD or book...I'm talking about the guys who WROTE the book/CD/DVD or the banjo tune or produced the tracks, or the person who is selling them as part of a mom and pop retail business. These are real people whose income is diminished. Also, I think too many people picked up on the the copyright vs public domain issues. I'm not even talking about that. That will always be a gray area and there will always be hundreds of thousands of what are technically, legally "infringements" that don't really hurt anybody. Thats not what I'm addressing. Too many people misinterpreted my post to mean i want large numbers of postings restricted. I CLEARLY didn't say that. I'm talking about the extreme numbers...like I said above, I estimate that less than .0125 of the BHO membership would be in the category that I suggested whose number of uploads may be in question. Relax, people! This forum is for opinions and that's mine. I have no power to implement anything! All i am doing is voicing my opinion as a guy who makes his living selling banjo instructional materials.

Smurf2dope - Posted - 12/20/2013:  11:44:01

You may want to take a look at the other side of the coin. Perhaps YouTube and BHO free content are the solution and not the problem.  A big chunk of the TABs and videos on this site are put out by "professionals" promoting their teaching methods, bands, etc. They are tools for low to no cost promotion of paid goods and content. The cat is already out of the bag so to speak.  Amazon may be a better target for your concern. (Google shopping results too) They started out revolutionizing how people buy books and have branched out into a bunch of different areas. That's where I bought my couple books and DVDS.  There's no shortage of books and other instructional stuff at the slow jam I go to.  They just changed how they shop for them.  

Take care. 

Tam_Zeb - Posted - 12/20/2013:  12:38:20

Jack

I honestly don't think BeckyBoy's BIAB backing tracks here on the BHO are affecting your business, these MIDI files are not taking money out of the pockets of the pro's.

Here in the UK people just don't have the money in their pockets since the financial crisis and I am guessing the same is true in the USA.  In addition the US postal service pushed up its prices recently, the UK Post Office also lumps a huge service charge to recover VAT and Import Duty on behalf of the British Government. That's the reality of life.

If I may make a suggestion. Perhaps if you spent a little time redesigning your website you might attract more custom, after all that's your shop window on the world. If a shopkeeper wants to attract new customers he/she has his/her goods organized neatly on display. I visited your website yesterday and I found it a bit of a clutter, awkward to navigate, somewhat tired and dated looking. I don't mean that to be rude, or to offend,  simply honest friendly feedback. These days you have to draw customers to your store, it has to look bright and fresh in order to attract customers to keep coming back and new products for them to purchase when they return.  Look to your competitors, Elderly Instruments,   Banjo.com, Janet Davis and others what are they doing to increase sales?

One guy's goodwill gesture is not the cause of your demise Jack. But banging on about it may well turn customers away from your store. Thank about it. You really don't want to do that. 

FWIW I don't use BeckyBoy's BIAB files I have enough instructional materials to keep me busy but I know they are there should I need to use them, likewise I also know there are products out there like TablEdit, Guitar Pro, Band-in-a-Box, Song Surgeon and others to enable me to create my own backing tracks if I want. You gotta keep pace with what's going on in the marketplace today better yet in the future. If you want to stay in business you've got to use the Internet to help grow trade. You have some fine Instructional Tools Jack post a few samples here on the HO show the donkey the carrot and lead them back to you store.

I do hope business picks up for you soon. God Bless

janolov - Posted - 12/20/2013:  13:12:40

Aren't we living in the free world? There are some legal restrictions such as copyright, but if a person choose to publish own arrangements free of charge it is up to that person - and it is up to the banjo player to decide to buy tabs or use free tabs. I don't think that players takes money from the professionals by downloading tabs or background arrangements - isn't it more that the professionals try to charge people for what the people can get free? So why don't the professional get a good education and get a descent job like the rest of us.

On the other hand I have to admit that a tab arrangement from a professional often (but not always) is better and more accurate than an arrangement from an amateur. I often prefer to buy tabs instead of using the free tabs, but that is my choice. I don't want that a bunch of banjo professional teachers shall force me to buy tabs.

Beckyboy - Posted - 12/22/2013:  03:16:19

Guys and Gals

I'm sorry but I've been up all night chewing my nails and worrying about poor Jack Hatfield struggling to make a living because of the free tracks I posted, the thought of poor ol Jack not being able to pay his bills and possibly ending up on the street was just to much to think about so all tracks are gone.

Hopefully he can now make a buck out of his fellow BHO members so please help Jack pay his bills and be sure to buy all his material, Jeeps I think i'm gonna cry.  

Bye Folks.

Yanni - Posted - 12/22/2013:  03:41:32

How very sad that this has happened.  I feel quite guilty because the tracks were quite happily sitting there until I woke up the thread by adding one of my own.  I assume that it would have been fine if he had been charging for the tracks and therefore 'professional'?  I guess it is just the giving freely that is the problem?  Personally, the tracks Beckyboy posted have been a great tool as I only play at home and I have bought Band In A Box because of these tracks and the ability to have my own band, which is much more fun than playing on my own.  I have been playing less than a year and so repertoire is my major issue (obviously I need to learn playing skills too ;)), these tracks were really useful and I want to add my thanks to Beckyboy for sharing them in the first place.  I also own many DVD's and books from 'professionals' but I may not buy any more after this.

Ian

Banjowen - Posted - 12/22/2013:  05:27:06

"Mr Sadfield" should face up to the fact that things aren't what they used to be and that we're all finding life a struggle so if we can save money on our music we will, Beckyboy don't let Hatfield influence you into removing your backing tracks, ever since he joined the hangout he's been a pain in the arse...

Please send all donations to
Mr Jack Hatfield
Pity Forge TN
UNITED STATES

Shake-Boy - Posted - 12/22/2013:  07:50:56

So after reading through this thread and the one that generated Mr. Hatfield's creation of this topic (banjohangout.org/topic/218356 )it's apparent that many of you downloaded backing tracks created by Beckyboy to your own computers.  Who is willing to use their own profile to repost them?  I would do so but I didn't download any of them.  If anyone wants to contact me and send them via email I'll be happy to post them under my profile. 

It's a shame that they were all removed based on one person's objection when it's obvious that Mr. Hatfield doesn't have much (if any) support for his position.  I don't see any "professionals" rushing to his side in agreement.....as a matter of fact there are a few who have publicly disagreed with him....John Boulding (Banjophobic) is just one example.    His post on this topic is just a few before this one.  

@Beckyboy - I passionately urge you to reconsider.  You've appeased one person and his opinion to the detriment of the entire community.  Your work and goodwill are appreciated by many.   I will be doing what I can to get the tracks posted anyway.....so I'm anticipating at least a portion of them will soon be available again.  How about saving me, and others, the trouble?

Looking forward to the opinions of others on this one. 

Merry Christmas Everybody!

Shake-Boy (Paul Kosiewicz)

Laurence Diehl - Posted - 12/22/2013:  07:59:11

Sometimes all a 'businessman' has is his reputation and the goodwill of his brand. I don't know how many times I have seen Mr. Hatfield's products being recommended to newbies on here. That was back when he was anonymous. After all this, who knows?

ken61 - Posted - 12/22/2013:  15:17:10

I do not like topics like this!  I see no need for such discussions.  Businessmen should be sage enough to refrain from making political, religious, or other controversial comments similar to  those made in regard to these BIAB recordings.   Such comments are "NO WIN" !     In business, you can think what you will, but saying what you think can often truly negatively affect the business brand and the  bottom line.

Shake-boy, you have a PM.

WNCBluegrass - Posted - 12/22/2013:  17:14:43

Seems like a conflict of interest going on to me. What I read between the lines is that the competition is driving down the profits that the person complaining was making.

Tell you what. Let's be consistent. If people start paying full price for store websites by paying professionals what they are worth and I will consider the request.

Jack Baker - Posted - 12/22/2013:  20:11:27

Peter,

I don't quite get what you mean but I think I've got the gist of what you're saying. BHO is, by its very reason for being here, is for free or "sharing" anything people can get legally. I didn't say it was totally fair or reasonable to do so but this site is not really for advertising "pay for" tabs really--it would be nice but not sensible in this internet age we now live in. Many of the pros with DVDs and tabs actually do quite well ..Jack

---

Originally posted by WNCBluegrass

Seems like a conflict of interest going on to me. What I read between the lines is that the competition is driving down the profits that the person complaining was making.



Tell you what. Let's be consistent. If people start paying full price for store websites by paying professionals what they are worth and I will consider the request.

---

Edited by - Jack Baker on 12/22/2013 20:20:47

Jack Baker - Posted - 12/22/2013:  20:31:56

One more thing. If I were to advertise on BHO, I'd do it by way of the website's "pay for" advertising method such as you see being displayed at the top of each page. I personally pay to advertise my teaching practice on Google, not necessarily on BHO as it is not for the general audience and do quite well...Jack

---

riginally posted by jbaker7

Peter,

I don't quite get what you mean but I think I've got the gist of what you're saying. BHO is, by its very reason for being here, is for free or "sharing" anything people can get legally. I didn't say it was totally fair or reasonable to do so but this site is not really for advertising "pay for" tabs really--it would be nice but not sensible in this internet age we now live in. Many of the pros with DVDs and tabs actually do quite well ..Jack

---

Originally posted by WNCBluegrass

Seems like a conflict of interest going on to me. What I read between the lines is that the competition is driving down the profits that the person complaining was making.



Tell you what. Let's be consistent. If people start paying full price for store websites by paying professionals what they are worth and I will consider the request.

---

 

---

Edited by - Jack Baker on 12/22/2013 20:33:33

tinkersdam - Posted - 12/23/2013:  10:06:11

As a 'loner' of a banjo player whose closest connection to having the experience of a 'backup' or 'jam' when I'm playing were the midi back-up files...I have always been eternally grateful for the posting of these & the 'virtual bluegrass band' midi files which now, to my dismay, are also no longer available.    What a pity.    What a loss.      

To those who posted them....your effort and intent was to help those of us trying to learn.     It did.    Thank you.

OSCAR82AA - Posted - 12/23/2013:  16:24:12

I think that if youtube and the internet is hurting your overall profit you have to find a way to make it work for you and not against you.

Because it is only getting bigger and bigger. And ain't a going any wheres.

Thanks for all the great backup stuff beckyboy . Someone always has to ruin it for everyone.

 This post will probably hurt you more than help you MR. Hatfield.

schlange - Posted - 12/23/2013:  16:44:49

The Virtual Bluegrass Band MIDI files from Dave Marshall are still around--on his site here: homepage.ntlworld.com/d.k.mars...ckup.html

Here's a new topic I posted re: uploading backing tracks which might interest everyone: banjohangout.org/topic/276431

Jack, while I certainly respect your opinion, banjo ability, and everything you've done (and continue to do) for banjo players, I don't agree that free backing tracks hurt the people who write the songs. In my experience, they encourage people to listen to and play those songs more. Also, since we're licensed with SESAC, BMI, and ASCAP, we report quarterly on what jukebox tracks are played, and our license fees (presumably) get paid to the artists who write the songs we're all uploading.

The way I see it, professionals like Jack Hatfield make money doing things others cannot do. I, for instance, cannot listen to Earl play, then tab it out perfectly. Jack can! And that's why we buy his books.

Backing tracks, though, can be made by anyone with a good enough ear to hear chord changes, and enough money to buy BIAB. They can then be shared for free online, on a variety of platforms. Trying to stop those from being made is an impossible task, methinks. 

Tam_Zeb - Posted - 12/23/2013:  17:00:22

Hi Eric

Thank you for this commonsense approach on this delicate issue. Perhaps Jack will quickly realize that his hastie reaction did more harm to his reputation and his business than these midi files ever could. Hopefully Beckyboy will have the reassurance he needs to repost his backing tracks.

ken61 - Posted - 12/23/2013:  19:07:49

Eric

Thank You!

ken

tinkersdam - Posted - 12/27/2013:  21:50:39

THANKS, ERIC!!

Banjowen - Posted - 12/28/2013:  02:24:30

In my opinion it says a lot that Mr Hatfield doesn't spend to much time on the Hangout, could it possibly be that he's far too busy making money?

oldwoodchuckb - Posted - 12/28/2013:  16:14:55

I don't know if this is true of others but I give away an ebook with clawhammer instructions, some general banjo knowledge, and a chapter on memorizing that can be used by anyone studying any instrument. I've yet to have a complaint about unfair competition from any banjo teacher who sells books, and/or DVDs. The only complaint I've had has been from a character who also gives a banjo method away and he has long been banned from BHO for his extremely rude behavior. 

Why aren't Dan Levenson and Ken Perlman trying to drive me out of the market? Perhaps because they know that to do so would be unlawful, and unethical. Perhaps because they know my little "Lemonade Stand" business is not hurting them one bit. Perhaps because they never noticed me. Whatever. 

I don't think I would pay money for materials from someone who was also trying to stop that free dissemination of ideas that is part and parcel of the American ideal. 

And why isn't he complaining about all the How2 videos on youtube? You know - if someone puts up a youtube video telling you how to apply wallpaper there are going to be millions of paper hangers put out of work - should we allow this clear restraint of trade to continue? 

kipperr - Posted - 12/28/2013:  19:31:17

I'm with oldwoodchub and everyone else on this one.

What a ridiculous OP with a ridiculous premise.

I WON'T be buying any of Jack's materials again.

mworden - Posted - 01/21/2014:  10:49:36

Mr Hatfield's materials have been recommend countless times on BHO, undoubtedly helping his professional business.   Perhaps he might consider becoming a paid Players Union Member to support the professional web enterprise from which he benefits.

MartinLuther1960 - Posted - 01/25/2014:  20:16:02

I hear loud and clear what Jack Hatfield is saying...

I don't have books/CDs out on the market, so I'm not neccessarily speaking from Jack's experience...

I have, however worked in the field teaching guitar, mandolin, banjo, and beginning fiddle for over 30 years now...

I recognized early on that music itself is 'soft money'... i.e., I always had to have a day job in order to get by...

Taken in that light, music then becomes a fun and very decent back-up line of work...

Jack Hatfield has got books published by top publishers in the field and Jack Hatfield makes his living performing and teaching and writing/arranging...

So, it seems pretty clear to me why he would be concerned...

And pretty selfish and short-sighted for those who can't even recognize his issue...

This is an extraordinarily competitive world and things are getting tighter for everyone everywhere, no matter what they do for a living...

In regard to the fellow posting the hundreds of tracks, well, there are people out there who are absolutely obsessive-compulsive that find something they are good at and go at it like a madman... we could be talking about this very poster... if he's posted as much as you say...

I used to get in trouble on THIS site for post-ing too many tabs... other folks took offense... and it was very difficult for me, a fellow out of work at the time with waaaay too much time on his hands to do something else...

I also understand the folks who are trying to save money... this Hangout and others are great places for folks to socialize and interact with others of like interest...

I wouldn't give Jack Hatfield trouble, he is simply giving, or trying to give members an idea of what is happening from his end of the business machine...

My own teaching schedule has been affected by the economy in general for the last 5 years...

The best advice I could give anyone, especially in the music business is not to have all eggs in one basket... easy for me to say, but that is how I survive also...

Martin...

Edited by - MartinLuther1960 on 01/25/2014 20:18:22

Banjowen - Posted - 01/26/2014:  06:27:59

MartinLuther, as you can see you're in a very small minority with your views but you are certainly entitled to them... I'm just a little curious that you point out that you've worked in the field of teaching guitar,banjo,mandolin and fiddle for over 30 years yet on your homepage "before it was locked for reasons unknown" it states that you're a novice, perhaps the stuff you sold wasn't as good as the stuff that can be obtained on the Hangout all for free, just a thought.
P S
I don't suppose that you have another account on the Hangout do you, just a reminder that if you do it's against the rules...