budbennett - Posted - 12/15/2013:  13:20:43

quote:

---

Originally posted by jbalch

Polle:

I have the #2 - that is all.  The others are sold.

JB

---

rudykizuty - Posted - 12/15/2013:  14:16:51

Type A solid maple resonator on sn 11527.

Edited by - rudykizuty on 12/15/2013 14:18:10

UnknownUser - Posted - 12/15/2013:  18:36:56

Last point about the resonator replacements that lead to the hybrid banjos - is there any documentation that gives proof that B&D also produced replacement parts?

With the sheer volumes of hybrids out there, is it fair to assume that with a problematic Type A resonator, one could have ordered a f.ex Type B for it in 1924?  Or do we rob Peter to pay Paul?

Polle Flaunoe - Posted - 12/16/2013:  01:54:39

Peter,

You´ll have to think almost a century back in time.

Bacon was a small factory with very few dealers and no authorized repair shops around the country. Banjos in need of major repairs were shipped back to the factory.

I have the full provenance - plus "stories" - for many of the examples in my DB - they do generally tell of a direct contact between factory and customers.

It´s not hard for me imagining Bacon replacing a damaged, yet out-dated resonator assembly with an up-dated version - at the factory or shipped to the customer.

Besides - many add-on resonators were sold separately for lower grade open-back models during early/mid 20s.

Even today you can order replacement or up-grading parts directly from a manufacturer - f.ex. Deering and Gold Tone.

Polle

UnknownUser - Posted - 12/16/2013:  02:57:40

Great insights everyone...  Even though there are a couple open ended questions as a result of the review...  I think this is a pretty good summary of resonator assemblies held within.



As far as inlays.   Aside from the earlier mention, are there any specific fretboard inlays that I've missed?  General patterns seems to vary quite a bit.

UnknownUser - Posted - 12/16/2013:  13:03:13

In the next few days I'll be posting various flange designs.  If anyone has any advance photos of small/large hole setups, as well as f-hole configurations (i.e. full circle, part, & part w/ cut-out for neck heel)...  This of course will go hand-in-hand with heel configurations and the work-arounds on the flanges...  Stay tuned...

UnknownUser - Posted - 12/16/2013:  15:32:20

Attached are 3 different flanges in my collection from the Classic Silver Bell line-up, and a 4th from a 1923 small hole flange (also with cut out).  These are specifically designed to compensate for a thick heelcap.  Are there any others to consider?

UnknownUser - Posted - 12/16/2013:  17:03:10

Forgot to attached a large hole example

Polle Flaunoe - Posted - 12/17/2013:  02:24:08

Peter,

You may on some mid/late ´24 examples find a "double punched" flange - as on this #4:

A large-hole flange punched once more with the new F-hole tool - in order getting rid of old stock, I take. Transition - so to say - not a real type.

Polle

UnknownUser - Posted - 12/17/2013:  03:59:10

Polle, you may be able to find an example in your DB, as I recall seeing lower/higher total count f-hole type flanges?  

Polle Flaunoe - Posted - 12/17/2013:  04:35:15

Peter,

As far as I can see and recall, the number of F-holes is the same on all standard 13" beveled flanges - as at your picture above - 32 nos. for the earliest examples (with a spacing at the neck) and otherwise 37 nos.

Do however notice, that the shape of the holes does differ a little over time - most likely ´cause the old punching tool became worn and a new was made - and so on.

Other punching tools (of various sizes and shapes) were used for the XL 13½" beveled or stepped flanges - and sometimes for customized examples. The same goes for the number of holes. Do however have in mind - these are flanges for upper grade SB´s etc.

Polle

UnknownUser - Posted - 12/17/2013:  06:53:17

This leaves the mysterious small-hole flange with grommets...  We know its real, but I havent come across any pics of it...  For now, it will remain the elusive yeti.

Edited by - UnknownUser on 12/17/2013 06:54:09

rudykizuty - Posted - 12/17/2013:  07:42:45

Has anyone actually ever seen one of these flanges with the grommets? Perhaps it existed only in the artist renderings and never made it to production. Thoughts?

UnknownUser - Posted - 12/17/2013:  14:17:30

WRT the it being real, I think it's at best, considered a prototype circa 1922-1923.



A couple of extended clarifications based on an earlier exchange by EdBritt/Polle (banjohangout.org/archive/264082)

1) "..there were THREE sizes of round holes used on the early 17-fret Silver Bells -- before they went to the more complex, and costly, "f-hole" shape:

First: 1/4"-dia. --- Second: 3/8"-dia. --- Last: 1/2"-dia...."

2) "...The F-hole flanges from a 1925 and a 1927 SB - they are both 0.046" thick - whereas your 1923 example has an appr. 0.034" thickness..."

3)"... A glance at my extended DB - it seems, that they stopped using solid resonator plates several months before they stopped using flanges with round holes. I hadn´t 

noticed this before now. This does for sure indicate or even confirm, that the crack problem most likely is related to the wood - and not the flanges..."

4) "..The last version of the stepped 13½" F-hole flange has 28 nos. very large holes - almost following the circumference - and with the remaining metal parts between the holes only 1/4" wide and also almost following the circumference. This gives the flange a great flexibility and thus the resonator a somewhat high resonance tone - allowing the resonator to become a very active part in the sound production - and projecting quite a good bit of the sound backwards..."

5) "...Earlier stepped flanges and also the smaller beveled flanges do mostly have 36-38 nos. smaller F-holes with somewhat wider metal parts between the holes - this makes them much more stiff and thus the resonator resonance tone very low..."



Polle, would it make sense to incorporate the resonator types in your Developments section (acoustudio.dk/BD%20Classic%20S...ment.html) as well as an extended view to the 3 round hole types?

Is there any consistency with the f-hole types with regards to year of production?

Edited by - UnknownUser on 12/17/2013 14:27:49

UnknownUser - Posted - 12/17/2013:  14:38:45

Polle, also just to put some stress test on the Serial DB...  How do you validate year ranges (i.e.  what is it about 11508/19 that qualifies them as 1924, whereas SN before 11483 as 1923)??  Im sure this is taken very seriously, just need to understand a bit further.

Polle Flaunoe - Posted - 12/17/2013:  15:59:40

Peter,



Flange with grommets

"The Rattle Snake Banjo" - most likely never built for real.



SB Development Chart

I´m in the progress adding the resonator back plate types A, B and C.

I´ll however not separate the 3/8" and ½" Large Round Hole flanges - for several reasons - lack of consistency is only one of these.



F-hole types (plural)

Please clarify your question somewhat.



Year of production

It´s not either/or - it´s all about where a SN is placed on this statistical curve:

Don´t let its apparent simplicity cheat you - it´s in fact a very complex curve. The accuracy is for most years - especially in the 20s - +/- 1 month.



Polle

UnknownUser - Posted - 12/17/2013:  16:10:35

WRT to the F-Hole types, does the rectangular cut-out for neck heel happen in only certain years.  Does the C shape vs O shape of F's on the f-flange happen only in certain years??



For clarity I'm an actuary, so statistics are not foreign to me in the least...  What I do know is that confidence intervals exist and was looking for an error rate on your derivative curve.  what closes the loop however are confirmed sightings.  Im positive you have these...  What leads me to this is an exchange requesting some "looseness" on 1923-1924 with EdBritt stating a later start date...  

Polle Flaunoe - Posted - 12/17/2013:  16:34:46

Peter,

During the early/mid 20s B&D used different neck profiles and heel heights. Normally you´ll find the very slim profile and low height on SB #3, 4 & 5´s only - it could be used due to a higher quality of the maple for these grades. However also some SB #1 & 2´s like this do pop up from time to time.

All SB´s were generally reinforced with a rectangular tool steel bar ab mid/late ´26 - at the same time B&D started using the slim profile and low heel on SB´s of all grades.

Ed´s datings are based on official introductions, exhibitions etc. first of all - mine are based on production and first sales - hence the difference.

Can you illustrate the C- and O-shapes?

Polle

Edited by - Polle Flaunoe on 12/17/2013 16:43:53

UnknownUser - Posted - 12/17/2013:  17:54:34

"Can you illustrate the C- and O-shapes?"

Was referring to the bottom two flanges in the attached.



Re: dating S/Ns, do you apply an avg distribution of time between production & delivery?  So received Jan 1924 less avg 6months for ex.?

UnknownUser - Posted - 12/17/2013:  19:05:38

Let's take the S/N dating curve offline as a couple of items initially come to mind as potential variances (flexing the model will give you the +/- Months)...  For example if S/N X is definitively dated Jan1924 and S/N Y is definitively dated Dec1924, do you take the delta between January & December and linearly trend and/or adjust for market/seasonal demand?  Or is it just a matter of simply plotting best fit for Cartesian coordinates?  Adjusting for a slump in sales could really sway a 3-6month demand gap in S/N dating.  Just a thought...



For interest, it may be of use for data junkies to see the definitively dated S/Ns labeled somehow.  That way we can avoid the method of validation and define it as accurate (i.e. the BIG CHECK MARKS).  I can help with the confidence boundaries.  Also in the developments section of your site, does the "double click" work on most of the factors (i.e. if all of the factors were filtered specifically for 17Frets, would it hold up??  Do some only apply to 19frets??).

 

Polle Flaunoe - Posted - 12/17/2013:  19:52:56

Peter,

Regarding time between assembling and delivery - it depends completely on how and where a banjo was sold - by factory order, at a dealer, at a convention or exhibition etc. - it can vary from 1-2 weeks to 1-2 years.

That´s why especially the detailed provenances etc. in my possession are so important for my research. They give me a number of fix points.

Regarding the C- versus O-shape - this does basically follow the neck profiles as explained above.

Polle

Polle Flaunoe - Posted - 12/18/2013:  00:40:11

quote:

---

Originally posted by petercorfield

Let's take the S/N dating curve offline as a couple of items initially come to mind as potential variances (flexing the model will give you the +/- Months)...  For example if S/N X is definitively dated Jan1924 and S/N Y is definitively dated Dec1924, do you take the delta between January & December and linearly trend and/or adjust for market/seasonal demand?  Or is it just a matter of simply plotting best fit for Cartesian coordinates?  Adjusting for a slump in sales could really sway a 3-6month demand gap in S/N dating.  Just a thought...



For interest, it may be of use for data junkies to see the definitively dated S/Ns labeled somehow.  That way we can avoid the method of validation and define it as accurate (i.e. the BIG CHECK MARKS).  I can help with the confidence boundaries.  Also in the developments section of your site, does the "double click" work on most of the factors (i.e. if all of the factors were filtered specifically for 17Frets, would it hold up??  Do some only apply to 19frets??). 

---

Peter,

Oops - our last postings crossed.

When I out of curiosity started my research 9 years ago, the present and only source gave datings up to 10 years wrong.

It´s sadly still present whitetreeaz.com/vintage/banjomfg.htm#BACON 

It has taken me thousands of hours "collecting" appr. 8% of all Bacon/B&D banjos built and to a certain degree recreating the factory records and especially the production history.

I´m no longer "collecting" on my own - but I´ll keep on maintaining/improving the sites for some time.

I´m fully satisfied with the results of my efforts - and so are the users of my published sites - owners, collectors, dealers, stores, museums etc..

Polle

UnknownUser - Posted - 12/18/2013:  03:20:15

No question you should be satisfied with it., I know everyone else is including myself.  It's just my nature to want to push the envelop to its limit and "up" the end-of-year S/N estimate accuracy if at all possible...  With that said, is it an easy database exercise to include dated vs. estimated year values?  Or is your data tabular in nature?  What would be interesting to see is a seasonal distribution for each year.  I'd expect monthly/quarterly trends to hold up.  This can help shape the curve in unknown areas or ones where little sample is present.  



At this point I know the living document is pretty much there in terms of accuracy, so the inclusion of additional resonator information to your Developments section of your website will help round things out.  Does this page also hold a place for inlay dating?  I.e. Fleur-de-Lis appears after a certain date, etc...

 

UnknownUser - Posted - 12/18/2013:  07:05:42

@Polle, something to consider with Grover Geared Pegs as per an article late in Dec 1924 talking of their introduction 3months earlier... 

mtr.arcade-museum.com/MTR-1924...23-45.pdf



Does this mean its a bit later than first thought?



Also July 1924 should have a gap in production as per: mtr.arcade-museum.com/MTR-1924...-5-48.pdf

rudykizuty - Posted - 12/18/2013:  07:28:38

FWIW, Silver Bell sn 11527 originally had friction tuners.

UnknownUser - Posted - 12/18/2013:  07:38:25

@rudykizuty - This account would still line up with Polle's Dev section as the frictions went straight into eary/mid 1925

Polle Flaunoe - Posted - 12/18/2013:  08:08:04

Peter,

Ever heard of Waverly reverse gears?  As f.ex. used by Bacon during 1924.

Ever heard of summer vacation?  Most likely unpaid back in 1924 - as it still is for many - in US.

Polle

UnknownUser - Posted - 12/18/2013:  12:02:46

Ahhh yes...  Until I looked closer they looked like the Grover geared tuner...  Do you happen to know if they discontinued the (i.e. Waverly) soon after the Grover introduction?



So you have accounted for seasonality in you S/N DB I gather??

Edited by - UnknownUser on 12/18/2013 12:12:31

UnknownUser - Posted - 12/18/2013:  12:22:16

This might very well (i.e. the geared tuner) be something you include in your developments.  It avoids similar questions in the future and makes a one-stop-shop on your dev section for any changes...  Either way, even good to have it in the discussion space wrt to the actual timing/overalap of grover tuners...

Edited by - UnknownUser on 12/18/2013 12:23:20

UnknownUser - Posted - 12/18/2013:  16:05:20

Can anyone answer what the written digits under the tonering on rim represent?

Polle Flaunoe - Posted - 12/18/2013:  23:51:50

Yes - it´s a batch number.

Polle

Polle Flaunoe - Posted - 12/19/2013:  01:00:41

PS!

The batch number was used only for the pairing of rim and tone ring. The marking on the rings went during the plating/polishing process - they had to be labeled otherwise afterwards - however a few had the number scratched into the polished surface above the dowel notch.

Edited by - Polle Flaunoe on 12/19/2013 01:04:26

UnknownUser - Posted - 12/19/2013:  03:07:16

K great info...  One last thing on my list Im hoping to have answered is with regards to the flange and thumb screw assembly.  Aside from various hole_shapes/size/cut-outs/etc.  what is known about the brackets?  I.e. when were they discontinued and replaced with inserts straight into the rim?

Polle Flaunoe - Posted - 12/19/2013:  03:48:19

1929

Far far too late!!!!!!!!!!

UnknownUser - Posted - 12/19/2013:  03:56:23

awesome...  I've noticed that instead of re-soldering the disconnected brackets, some had just placed the inserts and added a spacer to the thumbscrews..  It feels much more sturdy that way.  

Edited by - UnknownUser on 12/19/2013 03:58:01

Polle Flaunoe - Posted - 12/19/2013:  04:04:38

That´s how I do - soft soldering isn´t strong enough - hard soldering is "hard" to perform - and silver soldering ruins the plating.

Polle

UnknownUser - Posted - 12/19/2013:  05:11:30

Polle a couple of outstanding questions within this discussion for you that may have been missed:

1) Waverly vs. Grover (was it a straight conversion with the introduction of Grover)

2) Is it possible to flag in your S/N database the validated/certified dated banjos.  Otherwise one could assume that all of the listed S/N are distinctly dated banjos and not based solely on the curve without the presence of a potential buffer (i.e. assumes certainty).   The good news is that the Cumulative nature of the Serial Numbers gives us a general curve (which you've provided earlier).



and one extra

3) Can you list the various recording metadata you use: ie. RG/TB/PB/UB/etc...  so its clear no one will misunderstand?



Otherwise, I think this closes the loop, in a general sense of understanding, of the Bacon Bacon Classic Line...

Polle Flaunoe - Posted - 12/20/2013:  01:08:32

Peter,

There´s much more to it - the issues can´t be simplified as somehow wanted by you.

All models/styles/grades will have to be taken into account in order getting a correct picture/overview - especially with regards to new constructions, features, geometry, 3rd party parts etc.

Without an overview like this it can for sure cause mistakes focusing on individual issues. This does f.ex. go for geared tuners on SB #1´s. Only 2 days ago you wasn´t aware of B&D´s use of Waverly´s ab late 1923 - now you´re focusing on a possible general shift to Grover´s late 1924/early 1925 - but how about their use of Ludwig Planet´s ab early 1924?  Or their parallel use of Screw Tab´s and Planet´s ab early 1925.  Or their parallel use of Planet´s and Pancake´s ab early 1927?

As for my general DB - do consider all datings confirmed - by me.  This is the best you and others will ever get, I take.

Polle

UnknownUser - Posted - 12/20/2013:  03:09:44

Ok agreed about the tuners if its a real mishmash that year.

As for your method of dating, can you at least provide a count of validated SNs by year? I'll at random select SNs to assign a year and bootstrap a stress test.

Polle Flaunoe - Posted - 12/20/2013:  05:20:15

Peter,

4 pages so far. When will this ever end?

If you´ll want to discuss our beloved Bacon/B&D banjos in the same way as Ed and I do - you´ll at first hand have to perform a lot of studies/observations and f.ex. expand your pics archive very much.

FYI - Ed is very much focused on early designs - I´m first of all going for various constructions, materials, geometry and features over time - plus especially the performance and playability due to this. Both of us (and many others, I take) will welcome any qualified inputs to future discussions.

Regarding my method of dating and my DB - why not find some banjos yourself - with a confirmed factory order (possibly for a custom example) plus shipment from or pick-up at the factory - and see how these fits my curve?

Case closed on my behalf - I´m now going to concentrate on a most likely fantastic concert tomorrow - I finished a comprehensive overhaul of my First Lady yesterday - she´s yet again ready for some serious action. Oh Joy - I have some great spares/reserves, but none of these come close to her.  Afterwards I´ll concentrate on my many Christmas guests - the first will arrive this evening. My son - pt. working/living in Toronto - btw. a great singer and guitarist.

Merry Christmas

Polle

beezaboy - Posted - 12/20/2013:  07:34:15

Polle

Merry Christmas!

Thanks for a great Bacon Banjo Co., Inc. year.

Here is Perry Bechtel at the factory August, 1929: mtr.arcade-museum.com/MTR-1929-88-25/48/

The best play the best!

John

Polle Flaunoe - Posted - 12/20/2013:  08:26:04

Hi John,

Also a wish for a Merry Christmas for you and yours - from me!

Thanks for the Bechtel link - interesting infos. Have you btw. ever noticed an article about the hand-over of his sponsored SN 22005 #6 NPU - at the Groton factory in February 1927?  I have the exact date somewhere in my archives.

Kind regards

Polle

Edited by - Polle Flaunoe on 12/20/2013 08:26:48

UnknownUser - Posted - 12/20/2013:  10:22:15

Hmmm.  It seems you may be missing several pitfalls in your own statements that are pretty obvious to an independent reviewer.  

1) Job security mentality is pretty shallow by nature.  Luckily it only lasts as long as the job...  And yes, I've read your 50 odd postings mentioning in a cut/paste fashion your self proclaimed wizardry and mastery blah blah... Boring!

2) You provide no disclaimer to your work as being subjective/interpretation.  Which speaks to a certain psychology.  Your website should say something like "this is my best attempt at dating..."

3) You don't allow scientific reviews of your work, which by the way, was enabled to you by everyone else's efforts.

This is not about proving you wrong, it's actually about strengthening your credibility; but you jump the gun on that one...  However, I'm still willing to help you.  Why?? I don't know, but I am...  BTW, you're partly responsible for these 4 pages bud....

Oddly - and give this some thought:

If I were to request help dating as you suggest, you unlike everybody who has helped you, would say no thanks. Back to Argument no.1 above...  

Again, great way to botch a conversation Polle.

Merry Xmas

Edited by - UnknownUser on 12/20/2013 10:36:49

ktbown - Posted - 12/20/2013:  13:21:30

I personally feel that 4 pages would be better spent thanking Polle for all the hard work and expense he has put into the Bacon database , which btw I have used countless times for my own benefit and the few times I needed extra help Polle always responded in a matter of hours ....  So here's a big "Thank You Polle"  have yourself a great holiday season !!!!   

UnknownUser - Posted - 12/20/2013:  13:58:36

Hi @ktbown.  Very much agreed that Polle has put a lot of work in.  And yes thank you....

However, the forum was to discuss designs, not thank Polle.  We must all admit, blind trust isnt good for anyone... Its more than fair to ask for explanations...

saulsmanb - Posted - 12/20/2013:  14:21:32

I would like to publicly say thank you Polle for all your hard work, and your willingness to share the results even with neophytes like myself. Happy holidays! It always makes me smile to think of you playing that beautiful banjo.

I also think that the suggestion of using a dated example from the Groton factory to test Polles database is an excellent one, Peter.

Good luck on your investigations as well -- you may want to reconsider your approach if you're hoping to get others to join you.

All the best.

Brian Saulsman

rudykizuty - Posted - 12/20/2013:  14:52:23

This popcorn is making me thirsty. Time to unsubscribe. Merry Christmas, everyone!!!

Polle Flaunoe - Posted - 12/20/2013:  16:44:45

Guys,

I wish you all a Merry Christmas!  And thanks for your kind words - also those off-line.

In a few hours I´m off for a performance with my Danish-German Jazz Band - my First & Second Ladies (both B&D Silver Bell No. 6 Ne Plus Ultra´s) are ready and packed - together with the rest of my gear (do notice my very special mike stand - LOL!):

Kind regards

Polle

UnknownUser - Posted - 12/20/2013:  16:51:30

Calton or Hoffee case? Nice!!!  It's been a blast fillin' the dish - Hence the garbage can no doubt.  Merry Xmas Polle...