BanjoNaranjo - Posted - 07/22/2013:  16:22:55

Just had a frailing scoop cut into my Reiter Special. Was looking for a standard scoop above the 17th fret but they cut it at the 15th fret. Also had an MOP position dot placed at the 15th fret (it didn't have one) and that coupled with some communication breakdown is where the confusion came in. The actual work was well done, just not per my request. Beside the fact that it's not what I wanted I have a few questions: will having a scoop so low on the fret board limit what I can play (clawhammer/old time) to a serious degree? Also, will this affect the value of my banjo? The luthier said that he'd do what he could to rectify the situation. Does that mean removing and replacing the ebony along the entire length of the neck (if that's possible)? Trying to make lemonade out of lemons on this one but damn, this bums me.

Edited by - BanjoNaranjo on 07/22/2013 16:26:17

C Nyal de Kaye - Posted - 07/22/2013:  16:31:28

I am sorry to hear of your problem and trust that it can be rectified easily.

Dale Morris - Posted - 07/22/2013:  16:59:07

Actually I have a banjo or two scooped that way, and have seen others with a straight scoop at the 15th or 16th fret...it gives you more space for your thumb to have a longer scoop, and unless you play down the neck that far-it's not a problem at all.

My favorite two banjos are scooped with a modified scoop. The scoop begins at the 15th fret for the upper side (5th string side of the fingerboard) and curves down to the 17th fret on the bottom side. The 16th fret is about half a fret long and the 17th is about 1/3 long..It makes room for the thumb and looks great. Will Fielding (Fielding Banjos) does a lot of his banjos this way, and Huss & Dalton does some of theirs in a similar way. I'm sure you can see some of theirs on their website.

If you don't like the look of a longer scoop, you might consider having a nice inlay placed in the fingerboard there about where the 16th fret was at originally.. You also might consider selling to someone that likes a longer scoop, and buy yourself another banjo.

SoundsGoodToMe - Posted - 07/22/2013:  17:46:41

A lot of clawhammer players rarely go past the 7th fret and almost never past the 10th.  You won't run into much in the way of limitations due to the longer scoop.

mbanza - Posted - 07/22/2013:  20:20:04

If you decide to have frets 16 and 17 reinstated, a piece of matching wood can be affixed beginning at 15th fret slot.  Slots are then cut and frets installed.  If well done, it will be nearly invisible.

BanjoNaranjo - Posted - 07/22/2013:  22:17:50

Thanks all for the info/suggestions. Guess my main concern was the playability since as a newbie I've only ventured up to the 12th fret so far. Some of your ideas I thought of as well and in fact I had considered a modified scoop to begin with and that was part of the communication snafu. Guess the lesson here is to make sure you speak to the actual person face-to-face but had to do it over the phone since I had to drop off the banjo when he wasn't there. The MOP inlays at the 17th and 21st frets are still partly visible (small dots, must be imbeds) so may have them made into small stars or similar. Really doesn't look too bad and like I said, the actual craftsmanship was fine.

banjobart - Posted - 07/23/2013:  06:22:03

I would have done it right and left no residual holes where the 21st. fret pearl dots were. Those marks are left from the brad point bit that drilled the original holes for the dots. After scooping I deepen the 21st. fret dot holes and put in new dots so everything looks correct and original. I would have done the scoop job for $50 with a one day turnaround if you had sent it here. I hope that you did not have to pay the clown much for botching your banjo.

OldPappy - Posted - 07/23/2013:  06:40:42

Someone, I believe it may have been "Stringbean", once said "In Old Time Banjo, there ain't no money above the 7th fret".

I do not recall seeing any CH players playing that far "up" the fret board, but just because I haven't seen it done does not mean a whole lot.

If you do not expect to play above the 15th fret, I would think the longer scoop would be okay so long as it looks good, but if you do want to play above the 15th fret, the "mistake" can be corrected fairly easily.

Still, the work should be done to customer satisfaction, so it is up to you to decide if the longer scoop is a problem, or a benefit.

Edited by - OldPappy on 07/23/2013 06:44:35

JRushing - Posted - 07/23/2013:  07:39:55

There is a high G chord up to the 17th fret. That's why builders do an S-Scoop so you can access the bottom strings of that chord while still having more room for your frailing hand and thumb.

Personally I would make him pay to send it back to Bart for a new fretboard and a job done right.

Unless of course it's something you can live with, then no problem. There's no hard fast rule on where a scoop should be.

FYI: there was just a banjo for sale in the classifieds by Brooks Masten, he accidently moved the scoop back 1 fret and he offered it at a discount because of this.

banjo bill-e - Posted - 07/23/2013:  08:22:44

I cannot imagine it ever being a factor for someone playing old time/clawhammer. If I was on good terms with the luthier I would probably just let it go myself. Or maybe he is willing to put a cool inlay in that nice open space? 

banjot - Posted - 07/23/2013:  08:39:29

Ain't no money to be made above the fifth fret..." Stringbean

jbalch - Posted - 07/23/2013:  10:04:03

Some custom builders make banjos scooped after the 15th fret.  That allows a little extra space for players who "cluck" the high harmonic on the 1st string. 

So - if you  don't often play all the way up to the G note of the 1st string - it might not be a problem.  Could even be an advantage.

Personally, I like them scooped after the 17th.  I do sometimes play up that high and would miss the top two frets.  I do think the longer scoop might limit the re-sale appeal to some potential buyers.  Any such customization will reduce the resale value (IMHO).

Tatersoup - Posted - 07/23/2013:  10:41:29

If you were clear in your instructions to the person who did the work, I would demand it be rebuilt to your satisfaction. Demand receipts for the replacement neck and fret board so you don't get cheated with a cheap Chinese imitation.

Better yet, demand a whole new replacement instrument. That way, you will not have to worry about this person's skill set at all which I would consider a good thing.

Edited by - Tatersoup on 07/23/2013 10:52:21

OldPoppy - Posted - 07/23/2013:  12:22:11

My Bart banjo is unscooped and fretted all the way to the top, but I have a Cedar Mountain fretless that's scooped as Dale Morris describes above and I have to say I rather prefer it that way for playing over the neck as it gives a more room for the right thumb to maneuver. So imho, the higher scoop actually enhances playability as I don't have to be concerned with my thumb crashing into the neck, which can become painful with repetition. Of course, on the fretless, my left hand only ventures that high up the neck in moments of temporary insanity. Even with frets, I kinda view above the 14th as a no-fly zone.

Still, even if you were to decide that the mis-scoop is acceptable AND if instructions to the luthier were clear, it seems you are owed compensation of some sort. As somebody else suggested, it could affect resale value although if the job was well done otherwise, that may not be a big concern. 

Tatersoup - Posted - 07/23/2013:  12:31:54

In fact, now that I've thought about it a while, the only thing I'd accept would be for it to be returned to the Reiter factory for a replacement neck, plus all my costs, including shipping be reimbursed. Anything else and you don't really know what you will end up with.

will having a scoop so low on the fret board limit what I can play (clawhammer/old time) to a serious degree? Yes, in my opinion. I personally couldn't live without that high G note.

Also, will this affect the value of my banjo? Yes, in my opinion.

Having this fellow replace the ebony also means he would have to cut in new frets. I don't think this sounds reasonable.

OldPappy - Posted - 07/23/2013:  12:55:29

John (Tatersoup),

This is an interesting topic. Like I said, I don't recall seeing a Clawhammer player playing that far up the fret board.

It sounds like you play a lot of tunes needing that high G note, and I would be interested in knowing what those tunes are.

Can you name a few of them?

ZEPP - Posted - 07/23/2013:  12:57:05

quote:

---

Originally posted by banjo bill-e

 

I cannot imagine it ever being a factor for someone playing old time/clawhammer. If I was on good terms with the luthier I would probably just let it go myself. 

---

I think that's a very important point.  

FWIW, I just walked through the store and noted that I have hanging on the walls the following numbers of banjos scooped after these frets:

14th - 1

15th - 3

16th - 0

17th - 15

18th - 5 (and 4 of these are Gold Tones--I have no idea why they scoop at the 18th)

​I rarely even notice at what fret the instrument is scooped, and--were you to bring an instrument to me--would not base my appraisal based on its scooping location.

Cheers,

ZEPP

jbalch - Posted - 07/23/2013:  13:19:50

quote:

---

Originally posted by OldPappy

 

John (Tatersoup),



This is an interesting topic. Like I said, I don't recall seeing a Clawhammer player playing that far up the fret board.



It sounds like you play a lot of tunes needing that high G note, and I would be interested in knowing what those tunes are.



Can you name a few of them?

---

I don't play up that far a LOT (and I'm not a tradition clawhammer stylist). But here is one example (see attached video... beginning about 1:02).  But - I'm playing a "D" tune in "C".  If I capo to play it the the correct key, I run out of frets for the high "B' part.

I think Zepp's point is good.  Scooping at the 15th is probably less common - but not at all unheard of. It is NOT the end of the world....

Edited by - jbalch on 07/23/2013 13:32:10

VIDEO: John Balch ~ Soldiers' Joy (click to view)

OldPappy - Posted - 07/23/2013:  13:26:38

Jeff,

If there was some communication problems between you an the luthier, as your post seems to imply, he may have simply done in the way he has done other scoops.

If you have a decent relationship with the luthier, that is worth preservation, so consider whether this is really a problem for you before you start trying to stretch his hide over the barrel about it.

"The luthier said that he'd do what he could to rectify the situation"

If you decide it is a problem, it can be repaired without going to such extremes as a whole new fret board.

Before I do any work on someone else's banjo, or anything else for that matter, I insist on putting it in writting of some form.

Nowadays, this is usually done in emails between me and the "customer", but the point of it is to make sure we both are on the same page about what is about to be done, before it is actually done.

If it is writting, and both parties can read or know someone who can read it to them, then a misunderstanding about what is desired is far less likely.

Dan Drabek - Posted - 07/23/2013:  13:57:59

If there was any devaluation of the instrument, it would have taken place when the fret scoop was added, regardless of how many frets are affected. The banjo is no longer in original condition. If you had your name inlaid on the fingerboard, it would affect the value even more, no matter how well it was done. (Unless you were famous). 

DD

Tatersoup - Posted - 07/23/2013:  14:32:56

Andy (OldPappy).

No. I can't think of a tune I can name that I play that high up the neck, but I do on good days.

I play in the key of G quite often when I'm here at the house and will say if I couldn't end a song on the 17th fret, first string, I'd be unhappy.

On the other end of the spectrum, if I'm in standard open G tuning and playing a song in C, it drives me crazy that I'm one note away from a C on the 4th string.

RBuddy - Posted - 07/23/2013:  15:17:33

Probably a good time to inject how important it is to write up a clear set of instructions for your luthier so there is much less chance of misunderstandings and /or having the wrong work done. Both parties should have a copy. The shop ought to attach a tag to the instrument with your name, phone and brief instructions for the work to be done and the customer should get a copy. A little effort by the customer and the shop can go a long way. Even if you have to ship an instrument you can document the job with email ahead of time and both the customer and the shop will have something to fall back on if there is a problem later on.

Brian

OldPappy - Posted - 07/25/2013:  06:10:30

I like John's version of Soldier's Joy, and appreciate having now seen someone play CH that far "Up the neck".



It is worth knowing that some folks do so, as though I do not normally cut a scoop that long it would be a good point of discussion to mention it if someone ever asks me to.

It is also good to know there is a valid reason for routing a scroll shape at the end of the scoop other than just for looks.

Edited by - OldPappy on 07/25/2013 06:14:07

OldPappy - Posted - 07/25/2013:  06:42:52

Tatersoup,

I keep thinking about this;

"Better yet, demand a whole new replacement instrument. That way, you will not have to worry about this person's skill set at all which I would consider a good thing."

The OP stated "The actual work was well done", so I am not sure where your thought about the luthier's "skill set" comes from, but I will say that demanding a whole new replacement instrument, for an issue that is very simple to retify, would be a lot more likely to make it neccessary for you to find a different luthier for any future work you might want done than anything else.

I don't know about how it is in Florida, but banjo luthiers are few and far between in my area even though I live between two of the largest citys in Tennessee.

I don't do a lot of work for other people, but I have yet to encounter any complaint about the work I have done.

If I were to be in a similar situation, I would make the same offer that Luthier made to Jeff, and I would restore the missing part of the fretboard so that it would be nearly impossible to detect the "repair". I have done this a number of times on the other end of a fretboard where a similar repair is often needed due to wear.

If someone demanded a brand new banjo for such a minor problem I would slap them on the back, and thank them for giving me a good laugh.

BanjoNaranjo - Posted - 07/25/2013:  16:57:56

The luthier has gracioulsly offered to replace the neck with a new neck direct from Bart Reiter. They were a class act all the way and they will indeed retain my business in the future. Thanks for all the insight. I don't have the funds for more than one banjo so the one I have is really important to me.

C Nyal de Kaye - Posted - 07/25/2013:  17:10:23

It is really good when you deal with honest and fair people. Thanks for telling us of the conclusion of this important matter. I am happy for you.

Tatersoup - Posted - 07/31/2013:  09:31:45

quote:

---

Originally posted by OldPappy

 

Tatersoup,



I keep thinking about this;



"Better yet, demand a whole new replacement instrument. That way, you will not have to worry about this person's skill set at all which I would consider a good thing."



The OP stated "The actual work was well done", so I am not sure where your thought about the luthier's "skill set" comes from, but I will say that demanding a whole new replacement instrument, for an issue that is very simple to retify, would be a lot more likely to make it neccessary for you to find a different luthier for any future work you might want done than anything else.



I don't know about how it is in Florida, but banjo luthiers are few and far between in my area even though I live between two of the largest citys in Tennessee.



I don't do a lot of work for other people, but I have yet to encounter any complaint about the work I have done.



If I were to be in a similar situation, I would make the same offer that Luthier made to Jeff, and I would restore the missing part of the fretboard so that it would be nearly impossible to detect the "repair". I have done this a number of times on the other end of a fretboard where a similar repair is often needed due to wear.



If someone demanded a brand new banjo for such a minor problem I would slap them on the back, and thank them for giving me a good laugh.

 

---

Well, it's wonderful that you have never had a complaint. Are you asserting that you have improperly scooped a neck, and the client did not complain? Not sure about your point here.

And, how far would you trust a luthier who can't count to 17? I'm not sure I'd have much faith in him or her.

I guess you're saying that a "nearly impossible to see" repair is good enough? Personally, if it was my banjo, I'd laugh at you all the way to my lawyer's office.

I think his luthier did the right thing in offering a new same-brand neck, a much better ethic than your "I can jerry rig it so it is nearly impossible to see".

Edited by - Tatersoup on 07/31/2013 09:37:08

OldPappy - Posted - 07/31/2013:  10:37:44

Tater,

Seems like you do a lot of your reading between the lines, so it probably wouldn't do any good for you to read my posts again to see just how far off the mark most of your comments are.

Having poor reading comprehension skills is no excuse for being ugly, and certainly does not excuse intentionally altering the meaning of what someone else said. 

I said I have had no complaints about work I have done for other people.

The reason I have had no complaints is because I make sure of what is wanted before I do it, I put it in writing, and I do good work.

I also have been fortunate enough not to have ever done any work for someone with an attitude like yours.

As for lawyers and laughing.

Anyone can file a lawsuit against anybody, so you can certainly sue anyone you want to sue, but if you sue someone for doing exactly what they were asked to do, and they have that in writing as I most certainly would have, then I believe the last laugh would be on you.

Dogfeathers - Posted - 08/05/2013:  09:51:55

Different folks require different features on their banjos so YMMV, but to me, a scooped area up to the 15th fret is a plus....almost a requirement. I have pretty large hands and when I frail with my middle finger over the 19th fret area, the "magic cluck spot", that puts my rather large/long thumb well forward of the 17th fret, so essentially there is no scoop under my thumb so I can't get a good clear bite on the 5th string. To me, having a longer scoop area is a definite plus. On older vintage/collectable banjos, I just make a bridge with a raised 5th string and that  gets me by just fine.

I think the luthier is "going over the top" to make you happy, certainly there will be no profit in the making of that banjo and he will likely be now going in the hole. Hopefully you will give him your return business when the time comes. Personally, I could live with this issue very easily and would prefer to preserve a good relationship with my local luthier.

Dogfeathers

Edited by - Dogfeathers on 08/05/2013 10:03:02