Razrandle - Posted - 06/09/2013:  22:33:12

WHAT TYPE OF HEAD GIVES WHAT TYPE OF TONE/SOUND.?

joemac - Posted - 06/09/2013:  23:32:01

Without writing a full essay on this, basically the thicker the head the more mellow and deep becomes the tone. Just as a rule of thumb. Of course it gets a much deeper subject if you bring in the tone ring arrangement as well.

Deaf Lester Crawdad - Posted - 06/09/2013:  23:47:22

quote:

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Originally posted by Razrandle

 

WHAT TYPE OF HEAD GIVES WHAT TYPE OF TONE/SOUND.?

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The thicker -and heavier- the head, the more it tends to produce good lows and fewer highs.   The thinner -and lighter- the head, the more it tends to deliver very bright highs; but to get those highs you lose some of the bass end.    (Head tension also has a hand in this, with lower tensions producing better lows and higher tensions the reverse.)

It's generally agreed that the "fattest" heads are the thicker calfskin variety, followed by thinner calfskin, goatskin, Renaissance, Fiberskin, various versions of painted Mylar heads, and clear Mylar heads.

Bluegrass players tend to prefer painted Mylar heads, Old-Timey players can like anything from heavy calfskin to Fiberskin heads -depending on the particular sound they're trying for- and quite a few tenor players seem to like the clear, bell-like tones (and volume) produced by clear Mylar heads.

Of course, it also matters a lot what sort of banjo you're talking about here: Putting a clear Mylar head on a pre-1900 Stewart won't make it sound like a Bluegrass banjo, nor will stretching a very low-tensioned thick calfskin head on a Stelling Bluegrass banjo make it sound like the old Stewart.

In short: it's a mistake to think that it's just the head that produces the sounds you hear.   That final product is a combination of the particular banjo in question, which head you choose to use, and how the instrument is set up.   None of those three things can be independent of the other two.

~Pete

pjfolino - Posted - 06/10/2013:  02:17:49

It's definitely fun trying different heads. My Deering Eagle's mid/bass came alive with a thicker 5 star head while my RK35 (to my ear at least) sounds crisper with the thinner Remo.

BDCA - Posted - 06/10/2013:  04:12:35

It's generally agreed that the "fattest" heads are the thicker calfskin variety, followed by thinner calfskin, goatskin, Renaissance, Fiberskin, various versions of painted Mylar heads, and clear Mylar heads.

Actually the Renaissance heads are the thinnest but tend to fall between the Fiberskyn and the frosted mylar.

head tension is also critical, and Renaissance heads need to be very tight.

Cya!

Bob

steve davis - Posted - 06/10/2013:  05:43:08

I have found the deeper tones in Remo heads with minimal frosting.

I find brighter tones more available with the thicker 5 Star heads.I don't like extra frosting on my Remo heads.

steve davis - Posted - 06/10/2013:  06:06:13

The lows that I find with my Stewmac Remo aren't available with a thicker 5 Star.

Nick Danger - Posted - 06/10/2013:  06:48:59

quote:

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Originally posted by BDCA

 

It's generally agreed that the "fattest" heads are the thicker calfskin variety, followed by thinner calfskin, goatskin, Renaissance, Fiberskin, various versions of painted Mylar heads, and clear Mylar heads.

Actually the Renaissance heads are the thinnest but tend to fall between the Fiberskyn and the frosted mylar

head tension is also critical, and Renaissance heads need to be very tight.

Cya!

Bob

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With the exception of one of my Hubers (a VRB-75-41 'Truetone') and my OME North Star resonator banjo, all of my banjos sport a Renaissance head.  IMHO, the Renaissance has the best overall balance for a multitude of playing styles... and they look cool, too!

Deaf Lester Crawdad - Posted - 06/10/2013:  10:51:19

quote:

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Originally posted by BDCA

 

It's generally agreed that the "fattest" heads are the thicker calfskin variety, followed by thinner calfskin, goatskin, Renaissance, Fiberskin, various versions of painted Mylar heads, and clear Mylar heads.

1.)  Actually the Renaissance heads are the thinnest but tend to fall between the Fiberskyn and the frosted mylar.

 2.)  head tension is also critical, and Renaissance heads need to be very tight.

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1.)  Actually, Reniassance heads sound "fatter" to most folks -myself included- than do Fiberskin heads.  And I was listing head types in order of what sound they deliver as opposed to how thick they are.

2.)  In your humble opinion.  Others disagree.

BDCA - Posted - 06/10/2013:  12:25:37

1.)  Actually, Reniassance heads sound "fatter" to most folks -myself included- than do Fiberskin heads.  And I was listing head types in order of what sound they deliver as opposed to how thick they are.

Fatter is a pretty subjective term. But I would rate the heads from plunky to sharp, with fiberskyn the most pluky and closest to skin, and clear mylar, the sharpest.

2.)  In your humble opinion.  Others disagree.

No, i would say that is definitely consensus on the forum and you disagree. Was it only mine, or a minority opinion, I would have stated so.Of course there will always be folks who prefer the sound from a lower tension in any style head.

Cya!

Bbo

Ken LeVan - Posted - 06/10/2013:  14:08:07

I believe that the Renaissance heads are exactly the same as the "Elite Amber" ones sold by Stewmac, and I like these a lot.

At any rate, I have used 5-Stars, Weather Kings, Remo Weather Kings, an old Vegalon head from the 60s, the parchment-looking kind, which are the "Fiberskyns", actual skin heads, an old Rogers 3-star, and the amber Renaissance or Elites.  Of course, all these have their subtle individual characteristics, each of which may be important to one player or the other.

My favorite one, which seems to have it all, is now the Elite amber/Renaissance, which works on tubaphones, woodies, a PW archtop and various flatheads.  I can't find a banjo that it doesn't work on.  I find it, along with a red maple bridge, to be capable of producing a very complex and expressive sound on many different kinds of banjos, and it has become the head I always use now unless a customer requests otherwise.

Many say it is supposed to be "mellow" but I have not found that to be the case. It can very bright and snappy, but it can also mitigate harshness  I would go with the "fat" definition that has been put forth by someone else.

Two banjos that are noted to be loud and brassy are tubaphones and archtops.  I have found that these heads have the ability to improve the tone quality of both of these.  Saying "mellow" is a misnomer - they just reveal elements of sound that the other heads (with the exception of actual skin ones) do not.

A simpler way to say this is that they make tubbies and archtops sound better without reducing their signature volume - they can still peel paint, but with more finesse.

PLUS I like the way they look - warm and slightly translucent. - just like they sound - a rare thing - they look like what they can do.

Ken

BDCA - Posted - 06/10/2013:  14:41:38

I totally agree with Ken, and as I don't play bluegrass, mostly Irish tenor, I have a different take. I find the Rennies are perfect for Paramount tenors, in that they bring out more tonality, maintaining crisp treble while producing a growl on the low G on an Irish tenor, a full octave below the G on a 5 string.

I reiterate, that my experience has been to really get the most out of the Ren head, it has to be tweaked to a minimum of 92 and as high as 94 of the Drum Dial. If it gets below 92 on a tenor flathead or arch topo, it gets too plunky and loses the characteristics that make it a perfect solution.

It may not be right for bluegrass but perfect for Irish tuning and also , IMHO, claw hammer.

Cya!

Bob

Deaf Lester Crawdad - Posted - 06/11/2013:  11:51:27

quote:

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Originally posted by BDCA

 

 

 

2.)  In your humble opinion.  Others disagree.

No, i would say that is definitely consensus on the forum and you disagree.

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Gee, could we see the results of your poll of all the BHO members?   What?    You say you didn't take one?   Then it's only your impression that nobody other than myself disagrees with you.    And given how different individual banjo players tend to be, a pretty silly impression it is, too.

Me, I'm basing my opinion -and it's only an opinion- on 50+ years of playing, building, and repairing banjos; plus the opinions culled from the hundreds of banjo-playing customers who have discussed their head and set-up preferences with me over the years.

Emiel - Posted - 06/11/2013:  11:55:51

quote:

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Originally posted by BDCA

 

2.)  In your humble opinion.  Others disagree.

No, i would say that is definitely consensus on the forum and you disagree. Was it only mine, or a minority opinion, I would have stated so.Of course there will always be folks who prefer the sound from a lower tension in any style head.

 

Cya!

Bbo

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I know only you and Polle saying that the Ren. head needs to be "extremely" tight. In my experience, the Renaissance head does not need more tension than any other type of head...

Dan Drabek - Posted - 06/11/2013:  15:07:25

I have only one personal experience with a Renaissance head, but lots of experience with Remo and 5-star mylar heads. I haven't noticed any increased tension needed to bring my Ren head up to it's sweet spot. But I definitely notice that it takes more tightening sessions to take out all the stretch and make it stable. To me, it feels more flexible than a standard mylar head. My bracket nuts are no harder to turn, but my tension hoop certainly rides lower. I do feel that my banjo has lost a little snap, but has gained a little richness. 

DD

BDCA - Posted - 06/11/2013:  15:28:08

I am not sure most folks will notice the difference between a 91 and a 92 on a drum dial. Theer are MANY more folks on the hangout that agree the Renaissance head has to be tighter, not just Polle and I. BUT I can only talk about tenors and open back 5 strings. WHat your "sweet spot" is and mine are may be completely different, add to that diffferent bridges, tail pieces and set ups...like saying this $50 wine is better than that $50 wine.

As someone who uses Rennaissance heads exclusively..probably installed 20 this past year, I keep my eyes open when they are discussed and in my experience both with other reports on the BHO , not opinion, the head needs to be between 92 and 94.

Cya!

Bob

Edited by - BDCA on 06/11/2013 15:29:02

Emiel - Posted - 06/12/2013:  01:45:59

quote:

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Originally posted by BDCA

 

I am not sure most folks will notice the difference between a 91 and a 92 on a drum dial. Theer are MANY more folks on the hangout that agree the Renaissance head has to be tighter, not just Polle and I. BUT I can only talk about tenors and open back 5 strings. WHat your "sweet spot" is and mine are may be completely different, add to that diffferent bridges, tail pieces and set ups...like saying this $50 wine is better than that $50 wine.

As someone who uses Rennaissance heads exclusively..probably installed 20 this past year, I keep my eyes open when they are discussed and in my experience both with other reports on the BHO , not opinion, the head needs to be between 92 and 94.

Cya!

Bob

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Yes, we all have our own experiences... I don't have a drum dial, so I can't comment on that. Subjectively, I don't experience that the Renaissance (Amber) head needs more tightening compared to a top-frosted (be it Ludwig or Remo), Fiberskyn, clear head etc. etc. But I don't measure it on the drum dial... So, it's just my feeling.

In the past, I've read a comment that the Renaissance head would need such extreme tightening, that you cannot use it on a Goodtime banjo; as the hardware of this banjo would not be strong enough to stand up to the tensioning forces... That's something I don't believe.

Edited by - Emiel on 06/12/2013 01:46:34

BDCA - Posted - 06/12/2013:  03:54:33

Actually Emile have found that to be true, at least on a Cripple Creek Gold Tone. I set one up a few years ago and the brackets were too soft to get the head tight enough, and jut bent and fell off. I requested a new set from Gold Tone and  the new ones were a bit harder and I was able to get the banjo to a reasonable level but not quite as tight as I like.

Remember the bracket tension on a thin film may not be more than the bracket tension on a much heavier head but the deflection on a Drum Dial will be less.

Cya!

Bob

Tony Mabe - Posted - 07/01/2013:  21:25:34

My favorites for bluegrass banjo are the good ole Remo USA (now have the little ship's wheel I believe) top frosted, and good white calfskin, nice used Rogers 3*, or a Bill Miller. The Remo USA seems, for the the banjos I've used, give the most clarity, sustain, and growl, and allows the tone of the banjo to come through without being dampened. You all know the drawbacks with the skins, they will (I've never had one that didn't) eventually fail if used at higher tensions, and they change a lot, but when there right, Wow! They give a softer, prettier, fuller tone than the Remo, and will stay mostly consistent if you weather proof with Kiwi Spray after setting them . Remember the banjo was designed for these! :) For open back, Elite amber and Renaissance (which are indeed the same Remo product), and of course white calfskin. The Renaissance seems to give a full tone with good clarity, and note separation without being to sharp. Seems to be the best calfskin substitute. The white calfskin same info as above, and is especially useful for older odd-size pots, or ones out-of-round where plastic head sizes may not be readily available . Just for my personal taste, I'm not a fan of the thicker, and plastic-frosting type heads, these include the Remo Asian, and Ludwig products on a banjo, 5 Star, Stelling, FQMS, etc., and extremely thick skin heads. To me these heads were intended for running at high tension without breakage, not so much for tone. They seem to dampen the clarity of the instrument, give more then is desirable note separation, and the frosting wears faster for some reason (its almost like it melts). However, if you have an extremely bright banjo like an ODE of Fender Artist, the Ludwig may be a good choice to calm it down at a lower tension around G or so.

Tony Mabe - Posted - 07/01/2013:  21:47:55

I know it's not a "whats your favorite" topic, I just thought I'd throw in my two cents. LOL Yaw have a great day!
God Bless,
T.

Banjophobic - Posted - 07/02/2013:  07:37:14

"Thicker heads give more bass and less treble", is a generalization. Sometimes a thicker head, like a Ludwig, can actually give a banjo and increase in brightness. The head you chose has to be matched with a bridge, strings and set-up. Add to that the woods used in the banjo,etc and you get a much more complex view of how a head affects tone.

In general. it can be stated that thickly frosted heads, or heads with layers of fake 'skin' (and real skin heads) will emphasize bass response. Clear heads are generally the brightest in response. But none of this is set in stone.