maggler - Posted - 05/16/2013:  06:51:43

I'm new to clawhammer banjo, though I've played guitar and mandolin for many years.  I'm enjoying learning a bunch of tunes in double-C tuning, but it does seem to be a rather quirky tuning, what with the 1st and 2nd strings tuned only a whole step apart.

It seems surprising to me that an Open-D tuning like aDF#AD isn't used instead.  What do you guys think the reason is that Open D isn't standard for playing tunes in D?  Is it just due to tradition? Do any of you use Open D?  

oldwoodchuckb - Posted - 05/16/2013:  07:01:35

Open D - like every tuning - has drawbacks and advantages. Most people who play fiddle tunes find the intervals of DC tuning work out better for our purposes. Furthermore by avoiding having the tone mi on an open string, we can play tunes in all 4 of the main old time modes (Major, Mixolydian, Dorian, and Minor) without changing tunings. 

mbanza - Posted - 05/16/2013:  07:13:31

Beware of absolutes (everyone); personally, I prefer open C tuning.  aDF#AD will force you to change octaves in places that don't sound very good, or you will have to play up the neck.  Try playing a few common D tunes, maybe it will work for you.

george craciun - Posted - 05/16/2013:  07:47:36

For me using an unorthodox 3 finger style, what works best is drop C or single C (gCGBD) tuning. This allows me to play C tunes without a capo and capoed D and E , and by raising the C back to a D I can play in open G as well as capoed A and B tunes. I guess whatever works best for you, having tried different tunings, is fine. From my perspective I am happy to avoid major retuning between various keys as the D-C-D switch of the 4th string can be done in 5 seconds and takes minimal effort. Also C tunes sound much better uncapoed. Happy pickin'.

jojo25 - Posted - 05/16/2013:  09:15:41

@ Verne...yes...remember...there are absolutely no absolutes! :)

R.D. Lunceford - Posted - 05/16/2013:  09:51:38

quote:

---

Originally posted by maggler

 

What do you guys think the reason is that Open D isn't standard for playing tunes in D?  Is it just due to tradition? Do any of you use Open D?  

---

The best answer avoids a technical explanation I suppose.  It is an issue of utility.

Take a "D" tune like "Soldier's Joy" and try it in f#DF#AD then try it in gCGCD(capo2).  It just lays better in the Double-C set-up.  It seems that most D fiddle tunes work out better in gCGCD(capo2) than in f#DF#AD which is often used for what I tend to think of as pure banjo tunes (which by the way often come from the black banjo tradition).  All you have to do is try out a few tunes in gCGCD and the reason for its use  over other tunings for a fairly large body of tunes becomes obvious.

Actually, the  use of gCGCD does stem from "tradition", but then it became traditional because it worked best for particular tunes.  I guess from that perspective we do follow "tradition", but it is more an issue of not re-inventing the wheel than following along mindlessly.

janolov - Posted - 05/16/2013:  09:55:32

I use open D sometimes, and I think it is good for some D tunes, but for other double D (double C capo 2) or open C capo 2 works better. New River Train and Arkansaw Traveller fall out well in open D, but Mississippi Sawyer and Old Molly Hare are more difficult, at least for me.

howseth - Posted - 05/16/2013:  11:02:51

I have not been playing many fiddle tunes over the last years, (I like them, but I have been playing mostly made-up stuff ) - I find Double C - (actually Double A#, and Double A, the lower pitched versions of Double C) has become my standard tuning. Why? Perhaps because it can go either major - or minor - easily - and in it's own it has a particularly ambiguous sound I prefer -  good for 'open-ish semi-chords' and drones. Double C can, also be tuned easily into Double C minor (raise the first string) or Open C (raise the first string some more)... I play tunes in all these tunings - but the most in Double C.

As for the Bluegrass Standard - Open G - I almost forget about it - though that was my main tuning for years... I visit it from-time-to time, like going to a cousins house on a holiday... Even then I will often detour from Open G to its funky (1920's jazzy variant) G Minor.

Don Borchelt - Posted - 05/16/2013:  14:21:42

I play a three-finger up picking style.  Years ago, I worked with both double C capoed and open D, and decided that for finger picking purposes, Open D was much better suited for how I wanted to sound.  But if I had stuck with clawhammer style, I think I would have stayed with double C.  I play banjo duets all the time with another BHO member, Ed Britt; in fact, I just got back from spending most of the day busking with him in Harvard Square.  I fingerpick using open D (aDF#AD) on all our D tunes, while he plays the tunes clawhammer style in double C, capoed on 2.  Note that I tune the 5th string to A, not F#.

If I am playing a Dorian mode tune, I will sometimes raise the third string from F# to G, which gives me the open D equivalent of Sawmill tuning.   Dock Boggs used a similar pair of tunings, either f#DGAD, or f#CDAG, which he used for D modal songs like Country Blues, Danville Girl, and Oh Death, among others.  The reason he sometimes dropped the 4th string to C was to allow for the hammer to D on the 2nd fret.  But Boggs still tuned the 5th string to f#, the major third, even though it is the minor 3rd, the f natural, that he basically hit when he was both singing and and picking those songs.  The dissonance that resulted was deliberate, it created a kind of modal ambiguity that was an essential part of his sound.  It is basically the same dissonant sound that is created when a guitarist plays a major chord against a Dorian scale tune, something that was not uncommon in old time string band and early bluegrass music.  It is a very compelling tonality.

- Don Borchelt

Edited by - Don Borchelt on 05/16/2013 14:26:05

peter somerville - Posted - 05/16/2013:  16:27:04

Hi Don, I thought i'd read that Dock commonly used tuning F# C  F A D . Did i get that wrong? it made sense to me for key of D, giving him the flattened 3rd and 7th for the bluesy sounding songs he did. Just wondering.

maggler - Posted - 05/16/2013:  16:41:20

Some good observations here, thanks guys. I've been goofing around this evening trying to playing"Liberty" in Open D, clawhammer style, and actually I think I do like the double C version better.

Also, I play quite a bit of DADGAD on guitar, which is a great tuning that also has a small interval between two of the strings. I guess it's just taking me a little time to adjust to the ways of the banjo.

So, Double C it is, at least for now (though it won't work for Locrian ;-)

MarkRough - Posted - 05/16/2013:  18:01:34

Mainly, I just think double C/D has a better "vibe" than open C/D. I just think it sounds better. It's a personal thing, though, so. . .

mwc9725e - Posted - 05/16/2013:  20:02:59

quote:

---

Originally posted by MarkRough

 

Mainly, I just think double C/D has a better "vibe" than open C/D. I just think it sounds better. It's a personal thing, though, so. . .

---

You can say that again!! Just kidding :>)

banjopogo - Posted - 05/16/2013:  22:04:49

When I was a relatively new banjo player, I explored the open D tuning, but it fell by the wayside.

I kind of get the vague memory that it worked better for bump-ditty frailing  (which I played at the beginning) than for drop thumb clawhammer.

With 2 C's tuning, the two strings one whole step apart that seem odd to you have some pluses.

It makes a lot of notes easily available with a drop thumb that wouldn't be otherwise.

I also like the way you can hammer-on to the third.

There is also the influence of Round Peak.... 2 C's is just the way they roll.

Oh yeah.... I don't play a fretless, but at some point I thought that I might go that route,  and I figured that 2C's would be good preparation-

it's a good fretless tuning  (may be why it's favored in Round Peak style) and if I DID get a fretless, I wouldn't have to totally relearn my D tunes that way.

Then, I'm a fiddler too.   2 C's capoed up to D resembles the way the top 3 strings of the fiddle are tuned, except for the 2nd string.

So a fiddler playing in 2 C's doesn't have to totally rethink the fingerboard.

Also, 2 C's is just one note's retuning away from Sawmill, if you like to play in Sawmill at all.

An additional benefit of 2C's didn't occur to me until recently.  Because there is no open third, you can use it to play in D modal as well as D major.

rendesvous1840 - Posted - 05/16/2013:  22:17:18

Locrian? I can't think of an OT tune or song that was written in the locrian mode. That could just be my memory at fault, I suppose.
Using the somewhat stiff strings I like, open D works pretty well, but when I tried lighter strings, the 2nd string was too loose, and I avoided that tuning. I do like it for certain songs, though. Reuben and Waiting For A Train, among them. I never really put much time into open C, though I do use both open C and open D on guitar.
Paul

David Bowler - Posted - 05/16/2013:  23:54:30

To sell banjo capos!

Bill Rogers - Posted - 05/17/2013:  01:11:14

I usually use standard C; open D and Double C for tunes that set particularly well in those tunings.  I do play up the neck, and standard C is easier there for me.

Don Borchelt - Posted - 05/17/2013:  03:46:47

Peter wrote: "Hi Don, I thought i'd read that Dock commonly used tuning F# C  F A D . Did i get that wrong?"

Well, I don't believe he did, Peter, but I am not at all familiar with the entire Boggs canon, so to speak, so I could be mistaken.  Watch the video of below, recorded in 1966, five years before Boggs died.  He is tuned more than a full tone below pitch, but you can occasionally see him hammer on the 3rd string at the 2nd fret to get the 5th degree of the scale, which would be the A, if he were tuned to the key of D.  He does it for the first time when he sings the second syllable of the word "people", around 0:07.  Of course, he also makes liberal use of the hammer on the 4th string at the 2nd fret to get the tonic note, which if he were in D would be...  D.

Edited by - Don Borchelt on 05/17/2013 03:52:38

Tamarack - Posted - 05/17/2013:  04:57:11

Another (minor) advantage to Double C/Double D is that one can fret the second string at the second fret and get a droning effect on brush strokes that works well for some tunes.