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scthompson - Posted - 05/14/2013: 10:21:28
Corollary to my crisis thread, I have been pondering a deeper and more ephemeral question - what is it to *know* a song? This isn't a how-to type of question, it's a philosophical one. So left-brain it out for me - what does it mean to know a tune?
Beachbum Scott - Posted - 05/14/2013: 10:34:00
For me it is when my fingers on both hands know what to do with out thinking about what to do.
Marc Nerenberg - Posted - 05/14/2013: 10:36:25
This is my own definition for myself (others will, no doubt, have different perspectives than this):
You really "know" a tune when:
(a) You have a clear understanding of what its skeleton is - what are the essential notes to convey the character of that tune;
(b) You have the skeleton firmly in your mind - quite divorced from any particular way of playing it;
(c) You can ornament that skeleton in many different ways;
(d) You can find the tune in a variety of different tunings, and while it will sound different in each tuning, it will still sound like that tune;
(e) You have a core version of the tune that is personal to you, and no-one else (unless someone else has copied it from you).
MBuesseler - Posted - 05/14/2013: 10:43:35
Sarah, I hope you keep on asking questions like this...
This is one I'm willing to take a whack at. Someone is going to bring up the premise to this question, "What do you mean by 'know.'"
But, I'll skip that part and assume I know what you mean by it. I'd think this is one you can usually answer yourself...or at least I can. When someone says, "Hey, do you know 'Spankin' That Old Banjo' and you don't hesitate in your answer (to quote Peter Ostroushko to Norman Blake on their great version of "Muddy Creek,": "Sure do. Let's play 'er!"), I think you know you know the tune.
(What did I just say there...?)
Edited by - MBuesseler on 05/14/2013 10:44:45
kmwaters - Posted - 05/14/2013: 10:43:43
This is a depressing question.
scthompson - Posted - 05/14/2013: 11:01:37
Kmwaters, how do you mean?
Sometimes I'll be listening to a live performance, and the artist will say something like "We'll try this one. We don't know it, but we'll play it." I got thinking about how I know what they mean, even though it still sounds good.
Edited by - scthompson on 05/14/2013 11:05:11
janolov - Posted - 05/14/2013: 11:25:14
quote:
Originally posted by Marc Nerenberg
This is my own definition for myself (others will, no doubt, have different perspectives than this):
You really "know" a tune when:
(a) You have a clear understanding of what its skeleton is - what are the essential notes to convey the character of that tune;
(b) You have the skeleton firmly in your mind - quite divorced from any particular way of playing it;
(c) You can ornament that skeleton in many different ways;
(d) You can find the tune in a variety of different tunings, and while it will sound different in each tuning, it will still sound like that tune;
(e) You have a core version of the tune that is personal to you, and no-one else (unless someone else has copied it from you).
I like Marc's definition. When I know a tune I can (without tab or notation)
- play it in other tunings (at least at slow tempo in the beginning).For example Sandy River Belles in standard G tuning and in SRB tuning (well, I guess I have to know the tuning too), or to transpose a tune from one key to another.
- alternate between thumb lead and clawhammer
- pick out the skeleton core notes on guitar and play it in Maybelle Carter style or some alternate bass style.
- pick out the skeleton core notes on fiddle and find some own melodic embellishments.
So far I know only a few tunes.
Steve Jeter - Posted - 05/14/2013: 11:26:47
the known tune,, is the one that you play when somebody says"play something on that banjo" my fav. known tune in Polly Put the Kettle On, which I learned from RD Lunceford, I "think" I could play it in front of RD w/o cratering
orangikan - Posted - 05/14/2013: 11:30:28
For me, I suppose there are a couple of steps:
1) I know I *know* a tune when (as Dwight Diller often quotes Mose Coffman saying) I can whistle, hum, or sing the tune in a skeletal form as well as a variety of embellished forms.
2) I know I can *play* a tune when I can play it repeatedly without being repetitious and without actually knowing what I'm doing with my fingers.
I have just a handful of tunes in this second category, but I treasure every one of them.
Chadbanjo - Posted - 05/14/2013: 11:32:25
If you can hum/sing the entire tune in your mind with or without an instrument, you know it. That makes it much easier to learn the tune on a banjo. I've tried and learned tunes that I didn't really have burnt in my brain...takes longer and can be frustrating.
rgoad - Posted - 05/14/2013: 11:46:25
Dear Fellow Beginner: I like Marc's 'd' and 'a'. They would seem related to Chads comment, too. I have heard many people say you should be able to hum, whistle, or sing a tune before you start to learn to play it. It really helps me.
scthompson - Posted - 05/14/2013: 11:49:44
When I first picked up the banjo, it was not to learn banjo or fiddle tunes. For some reason, the banjo spoke to me as *my* instrument; it was a profound and electric experience. ...but, the songs that were speaking to me were not banjo songs at all. If there is ONE song that is the reason I had to learn to play music, it is "Revelator" by Gillian Welch. When I first started playing, I just worked the rhythm into the chords, and then I started learning and loving banjo and fiddle tunes, and I followed that path. When I came back to trying to play songs I know in my bones, I had lost the groove from overthinking the banjo. I'm finding that, right now, the two parts are coming together in a new way. I have a lot of work before I *know* any songs on the banjo, but I'm able to hear them in there more and more.
Fathand - Posted - 05/14/2013: 12:29:40
There are songs that I feel I can play and sing in my sleep and may play 3 times a week at jams but every once in a while I will mixup or forget words or grab a wrong chord. It happens to most everyone.
slc - Posted - 05/14/2013: 13:47:05
I think this is a really interesting question. For me, even though I've been playing for over forty years (I had to get the calculator out before I would believe it!), I really only *know* a tiny number of tunes that I could start and play cold. Maybe 25 at this point? - which might seem like a lot, but compared to others I know who've played less than half this long it's *nothing*. Of those 25 I probably can hum 10. After 40 years.
I used to feel despair over my lack of ability to learn and know tunes (along with their names!), but am finally accepting that I have 'different skills' - for instance I can pick up almost any reasonable tune on the fly quite quickly now, and provide a serviceable backup for most. And this applies to the tunes I already "know" as well! - every fiddler plays either a variation or with different feeling, and I often have to throw the known notes out the window and relearn this particular variant for this particular moment. Sometimes knowing it already helps me find the needed notes quicker - but sometimes it's a liability in that my fingers automatically go to places that just don't work in this instant. Plus, I'm pretty good at improvisation now; not being locked into the "right" way to play something frees me to play something else (which is a nice way to say, "doesn't play the right notes")
btw, even though I can 'learn' a tune on the fly, once the music stops I usually can't recreate what I was doing moments before. It's gone!
So anyway, this acceptance - that I'll never be someone who knows a lot of tunes much less know them well - recently led me to an epiphany: the banjo is a *backup* instrument. It can be played solo of course, but it really shines in playing with another instrument especially the fiddle. Like most backup instruments the banjo player doesn't need to know the tune, s/he just needs to know how to play *with* the tune. Guitar players, I assume, don't spend a lot of time learning the exact melody - they learn the chords and the feel, and provide supportive notes and rhythm. Most of this is picked up in the moment, not worked out ahead of time. Even though the banjo is different, it also is providing a supportive role - just with more notes (and volume)!
Long way to say, perhaps knowing tunes isn't the end-all - at least it isn't for me by a long shot. For me the important thing is to feel the tune, as it's being playing in that moment.
Noah Cline - Posted - 05/14/2013: 14:24:01
One thing that I think helps is listening to the tune constantly until you get it memorized note for note and can "play it in your head." I think once you get to this point, you know the tune.
Beachbum Scott - Posted - 05/14/2013: 14:56:27
quote:
Originally posted by Marc Nerenberg
This is my own definition for myself (others will, no doubt, have different perspectives than this):
You really "know" a tune when:
(a) You have a clear understanding of what its skeleton is - what are the essential notes to convey the character of that tune;
(b) You have the skeleton firmly in your mind - quite divorced from any particular way of playing it;
(c) You can ornament that skeleton in many different ways;
(d) You can find the tune in a variety of different tunings, and while it will sound different in each tuning, it will still sound like that tune;
(e) You have a core version of the tune that is personal to you, and no-one else (unless someone else has copied it from you).
Dang... and here I thought I was finally getting somewhere in my playing...
stanleytone - Posted - 05/14/2013: 16:43:18
quote:
Originally posted by Beachbum Scott
For me it is when my fingers on both hands know what to do with out thinking about what to do.
couldnt have said it better.....
let me add this.........when you screw up a lick in the song but dont lose your place.
Edited by - stanleytone on 05/14/2013 16:45:56
BillSchmelzer - Posted - 05/14/2013: 16:51:48
I've progressed over 35-40 years from 'not getting it' about any kind of music to being able to play banjo from tab on the porch, even singing along, and enjoying the sounds I make. All your replies remind me how far is is possible to grow, and that's my goal, while enjoyiing the trip. Thanks for all your comments and thanks for the question.
BillSchmelzer - Posted - 05/14/2013: 16:53:22
I've progressed over 35-40 years from 'not getting it' about any kind of music to being able to play banjo from tab on the porch, even singing along, and enjoying the sounds I make. All your replies remind me how far is is possible to grow, and that's my goal, while enjoyiing the trip. Thanks for all your comments and thanks for the question.
Marc Nerenberg - Posted - 05/14/2013: 17:12:17
quote:
Originally posted by Beachbum Scott
quote:
Originally posted by Marc Nerenberg
This is my own definition for myself (others will, no doubt, have different perspectives than this):
You really "know" a tune when:
(a) You have a clear understanding of what its skeleton is - what are the essential notes to convey the character of that tune;
(b) You have the skeleton firmly in your mind - quite divorced from any particular way of playing it;
(c) You can ornament that skeleton in many different ways;
(d) You can find the tune in a variety of different tunings, and while it will sound different in each tuning, it will still sound like that tune;
(e) You have a core version of the tune that is personal to you, and no-one else (unless someone else has copied it from you).
Dang... and here I thought I was finally getting somewhere in my playing...
Scott - you've been playing for what? ... two years?
You are getting somewhere - and your definition applies to you.
I've been playing for how long? ... like 44-45 years ... maybe a little more?
Several hours a day, every day, all that time.
My definition, as I implied in my post, applies to me... at my level ... and with my years of experience.
I repeat: "others will, no doubt, have different perspectives than this".
Edited by - Marc Nerenberg on 05/14/2013 17:13:54
oldwoodchuckb - Posted - 05/14/2013: 21:05:53
I always told my students "You don't know a tune until you can play it without reading it off paper or hearing it from a recording or another player." That's a good definition for students.
My own personal definition as a professional player was a lot more stringent, but a lot less definite. It involved having the full arrangement rock solid and being able to improvise within each piece without breaking the mood or format. I followed this rule almost obsessively when I was accompanying flamenco dancers. They needed a reliable guitar so they were free to do their own improvising or stick to the arrangement as they preferred. In this situation the dancers were the stars - I was just the guy who backed them up. I guess I did about the same when I played bass in Country groups.
Deaf Lester Crawdad - Posted - 05/14/2013: 23:57:20
quote:
Originally posted by scthompson
Corollary to my crisis thread, I have been pondering a deeper and more ephemeral question - what is it to *know* a song? This isn't a how-to type of question, it's a philosophical one. So left-brain it out for me - what does it mean to know a tune?
1.) You *know* the song when you can hear it note-for-note in your head: which automatically means that you can hum the melody correctly.
2.) You know the song on *banjo* when -as Doc Watson said- you can play it through three times in a row at speed and not make any mistakes.
3.) Numbers one and two are not the same thing.
~Pete
Deaf Lester Crawdad - Posted - 05/15/2013: 00:00:12
quote:
Originally posted by scthompson
Sometimes I'll be listening to a live performance, and the artist will say something like "We'll try this one. We don't know it, but we'll play it."
That usually means they all have the tune in their heads but have never played it together. Or perhaps played it at all.
plunknplinkntwang - Posted - 05/15/2013: 00:52:39
when I can play it using my choice of fingering rather than simply imitating a learned version; plus fall asleep playing the tune - not jesting
pres - Posted - 05/15/2013: 03:32:07
quote:
Originally posted by Marc Nerenberg
This is my own definition for myself (others will, no doubt, have different perspectives than this):
You really "know" a tune when:
(a) You have a clear understanding of what its skeleton is - what are the essential notes to convey the character of that tune;
(b) You have the skeleton firmly in your mind - quite divorced from any particular way of playing it;
(c) You can ornament that skeleton in many different ways;
(d) You can find the tune in a variety of different tunings, and while it will sound different in each tuning, it will still sound like that tune;
(e) You have a core version of the tune that is personal to you, and no-one else (unless someone else has copied it from you).
(f) You can improvise a triple fugue using the piece as one of the subjects
That ought to raise the bar around here.
John Gribble - Posted - 05/15/2013: 03:49:34
I truly know a tune when I can play through it with the same ease that I can shift through the gears of a car. I monitor what I'm doing, but don't have to consciously or semi-consciously tell my hands what moves to make. They know the tune.
I don't see this as a philosophical issue, but a neuromuscular one.
purplez - Posted - 05/15/2013: 04:24:37
When you don't need to refer to the sheet or the tab any longer.. you know the tune.
That's my own definition.
Steve Jeter - Posted - 05/15/2013: 06:18:29
quote:
Originally posted by John Gribble
I truly know a tune when I can play through it with the same ease that I can shift through the gears of a car. I monitor what I'm doing, but don't have to consciously or semi-consciously tell my hands what moves to make. They know the tune.
I don't see this as a philosophical issue, but a neuromuscular one.
Exactly! this is a physical as well as mental endeavor
mbanza - Posted - 05/15/2013: 06:56:41
You know a tune when you can play it and carry on a conversation with someone at the same time.
trapdoor2 - Posted - 05/15/2013: 08:43:15
Personally, I think there are a couple of levels to this:
1) simple memorization: you can play the tune without external reference. For me, this means "up to speed in a jam".
2) immersion: you can play it in other keys or tunings and improvise ruffles and flourishes with abandon.
I know most of my tune list at level 1. I'm not a professional, I rarely play solo except at home. In a standard OT jam, I find level 2 abilities to be a waste of effort if there are more than a couple of banjos present. Generically, everybody is playing the same tune at the same time and for the most part, everybody is focused on their own playing. If there is musical space, level 2 capabilities can really boost the jam (or it can kill it...showing off isn't always appreciated). Of course, if you're in a large jam and you're at level 2 for the tune, you can have a lot of fun experimenting with odd harmonies, counterpoint, etc....provided you can hear your own banjo. 
I think there is another level (perhaps it should be considered a parallel track rather than a level) but it isn't about knowing the tune, it is about knowing the music. I do it a lot at jams where I don't know the tune. I generally play an OT backup-lick style that (if done properly) adds to the sound without actually playing the tune note-for-note (of course, after we've been thru it a couple of times I integrate more and more of the actual tune, etc.).
jojo25 - Posted - 05/15/2013: 10:55:40
I am confident I really know a tune if I can play it drunk:)
ScottK - Posted - 05/15/2013: 11:37:32
quote:
Originally posted by jojo25
I am confident I really know a tune if I can play it drunk:)
... and half asleep at two or three in the morning on the fourth or fifth day of a festival! ;-)
For me, knowing a tune basically means I can pull it up and play it from memory. Really knowing a tune means I've played around with a tune so many times over the years on the porch etc that I can play it with extra feeling, nuance, or variation.
I don't mess around much with playing tunes in keys other than the key they are typically played in around here. But I have been chipping away at fiddle for a few years now. Sometimes I'll be the only fiddler in a small jam and someone in the group will request a tune that I know on banjo, but don't yet play on fiddle. A lot of times I can hack out a serviceable version on fiddle by virtue of knowing it on banjo already. But I never figure I "know a tune on fiddle" until I spend the time to work out a version with decent bowing etc and commit it to memory.
Scott
Marc Nerenberg - Posted - 05/15/2013: 11:37:39
quote:
Originally posted by jojo25
I am confident I really know a tune if I can play it drunk:)
I used a variant of that reasoning in college.
When I had to study something that involved rote memorization, I would make flash cards and work at memorizing one card, then two, then three etc. Then I'd mix 'em up and see if I still knew them all. Then I would mix them into the larger pile that involved previous memorization and see if I could still remember them all. I would keep doing this until I could go through the pile several times without error.
Then came the big test that I applied to my learning: I would smoke a joint and see if I could still remember it all flawlessly.
If not, well it was too late to remedy the situation that day, being stoned. But it least I now knew that I didn't really know it after all!
Edited by - Marc Nerenberg on 05/15/2013 11:40:39
ScottK - Posted - 05/15/2013: 12:14:31
quote:
Originally posted by scthompson
Corollary to my crisis thread, I have been pondering a deeper and more ephemeral question - what is it to *know* a song? This isn't a how-to type of question, it's a philosophical one. So left-brain it out for me - what does it mean to know a tune?
I was thinking about this some more. I think tunes are like friends. You have to spend time with them to really get to know them. No matter how great a person or a tune is, how well can you really know them after only a week or two, or a month or two? Versus a year or two, or a decade or two? Tunes I've spent a lot of time with in lots of situations over the course of years tend to feel like old friends to me.
Scott
J-Walk - Posted - 05/15/2013: 18:26:19
Good discussion. I started out playing guitar when I was 12. I explored every genre, but never got good at any of them, except possibly blues on a good day.
Recently, I bought a new guitar and now I'm playing it every day. I've been figuring out my best-known banjo tunes on the guitar, and it's great fun. The simple rule: The better I know a tune, the easier it comes out on the guitar. This rule also applies to fiddle, but my fiddle playing is for my ears only at this point.
cmic - Posted - 05/16/2013: 05:38:35
First I have to learn it, generally a tab helps. Then, believe me or not, I sit on the sofa,
switch on the TV, select a nonsense program, low down the volume a bit and play
the tune. I really follow the tune tune in my head while looking at the tv-junk.
Sometimes my wife comes in and ask me something: i answers with only 2 or
3 (correct) words, always playing. And if I can play in such conditions, I know that
I know the tune. Sometimes I whistle the tune while at the office, while fixing a computer..
I must admin the i am sometimes distracted by weird thing an the tv screen, but
I don't stop playing.
Well, OK, it's a bit strange, but it works
carlb - Posted - 05/16/2013: 06:03:13
quote:
Originally posted by oldwoodchuckb
I always told my students "You don't know a tune until you can play it without ............. another player."
There are plenty of those that I couldn't start, but hearing someone else start it, I know the whole tune. Those tunes will not be on my tune list until I can start them.
strokestyle - Posted - 05/16/2013: 09:30:31
Maybe these are all steps to knowing how to play the tune. I am finding as I go along further that even after thinking I really can play the tune, did I really know it or just how to play it? It takes me a little longer than other players sometimes to really get it. Soon as I think I am proficient at playing a tune, my fiddler will show up and crank that tune out and suddenly I hear it, the mood, the swing, the need to back off or really slam a part of it, find the spaces in the tune that require syncopation and lead up or down, not that I can execute it all the time but I suddenly know there is more than hitting the right notes. After all the time thinking I knew the tune, then comes the feeling, the twists, the diddle de to the diddle da, how to express those innuendos. It's may be the nuances that actually mean you know the tune, not just know how to play it. Feeling and soul I think may be the key.
mwc9725e - Posted - 05/16/2013: 09:49:09
quote:
Originally posted by scthompson
Corollary to my crisis thread, I have been pondering a deeper and more ephemeral question - what is it to *know* a song? This isn't a how-to type of question, it's a philosophical one. So left-brain it out for me - what does it mean to know a tune?
I guess it's already been said, but I'll say it, too: I think you know a tune well when you can make a mistake and immediately adjust your picking so that nobody in the audience even realizes you made the mistake. That especially applies to rhythm, but it does apply to melody as well.
Edited by - mwc9725e on 05/16/2013 09:53:04
MBuesseler - Posted - 05/16/2013: 12:44:15
This horse is starting to look pretty dead, but I thought of something a little while ago, while watching a David Holt instructional video.
I taught Electronics for 20 years, or so, and one thing that became very clear to me was that there were a lot of things I thought I knew pretty well, until I went to teach them.
Watching David H just now, he'd play part of a tune (perfectly), stop and talk about it for a second, then pick right up where he left off and play it perfectly from there. Man, he had to really know that tune, inside out, to do that. So, I'm thinking--and maybe this will be helpful to someone else--that I am going to approach a tune as though I had to teach it to someone else and see if that doesn't get me closer to really knowing it. I can't see how it can fail--IF I can get there.
I used to hear students say "I know this stuff, I just can't explain it." What they really meant was they really DIDN'T know it. Me, either.
jhouston - Posted - 05/17/2013: 03:32:50
First, I'll say I'm not that experienced with the banjo, and I'm also not much different than most folks in that I've been around music, listening and enjoying it all of my life. For me, "knowing a tune" begins with feeling it, even before I play a note, I listen closely not only to my teacher but to whoever I can find that is playing that tune. How many times have we all heard and played "old joe clark"? ... and ... how many different forms of that "tune" have you heard? So, I honestly wonder ... is it really the knowing that we are looking for? ... Or, is it the feeling that we are looking for ... like when you are jamming and everyone seems to be getting it ... and it's not your mind that tells you it's right ... it's just a feeling kind of thing ... at least that's my take on it.
Don Borchelt - Posted - 05/17/2013: 03:59:50
ScottK wrote: "I was thinking about this some more. I think tunes are like friends."
Some of them are more like lovers. One of them is so fine you are sure it is going to be your life-long favorite, until a few days later, when a prettier one comes along.
wifeof1 - Posted - 05/17/2013: 07:33:19
I am probably the newest one here. This has been a very interesting thread. Having absolutly NO experience with any Musical Instrument til Jan of this year. I have seen that the answer to most of the questions on this site really depends on your level of experience. With almost 4 months of lessons behind me, I can honesly say I dont "Know" any tunes, based on your description. However, there is one song, that I can sing along with. Even Better, my fingers magically added details/notes, the tab had left out for us beginners.
ScottK - Posted - 05/17/2013: 13:51:47
quote:
Originally posted by Don Borchelt
ScottK wrote: "I was thinking about this some more. I think tunes are like friends."
Some of them are more like lovers. One of them is so fine you are sure it is going to be your life-long favorite, until a few days later, when a prettier one comes along.
Hmmm, that's never happened to me. Oh wait, it has. 
Right now I'm in love with Hank Bradley's Chase the Squids. But I don't know it yet, so I'm listening to it a lot on repeat in the car so I can get to know it before I start working on it. So maybe you could say I'm courting it? Or maybe I'm just infatuated.
I love sitting in a jam with the Canote Brothers (which I usually only get to do at American Banjo Camp). Seems like every other time we finish a tune Greg says, "Man, that's the greatest tune ever!"
Scott
banjomanjeff - Posted - 05/17/2013: 15:39:57
Sounds weird - but I know I know it (is that right?) when I can play it through muscle memory by just thinking about the feel of the tune. Usually to the point where I can start improvising off the original melody.
Make sense? :-S
banjopogo - Posted - 05/18/2013: 22:54:45
I think I know a tune when I can daydream a little while playing it and not have a train wreck!!!
grumpsie - Posted - 05/20/2013: 01:23:19
I find myself always looking ahead, never feeling like I know anything yet. I'd say I only ever know a tune sometime next week, after I get to play it some more...
